Speaking in tongues?

[vardaquinn]

Good video, from Tim Staples. Pretty balanced view of tongues. catholic.com/video/speaking-in-tongues

 

[guanophore]

Well, that’s a silly distinction. Confession releases too (not only in the sense that it ‘releases’ us from sin), and baptism in the Holy Spirit certainly renews. **Baptism in the Holy Spirit is an experience that’s supposed to take place in the context of Christian initiation (especially through the reception of baptism and/or confirmation), **and a renewal of one’s awareness of the sanctifying grace bestowed by those sacraments. Confession is a sacrament itself. They do different things.

More that “supposed to” but actually does. When we are baptised, it is with “water and Spirit”. That is why it is misleading and confusing for Catholics to use this term. It is not another baptism, but an opening of the gifts from the ONE BAPTISM we have already received.

Confession can most certainly bring about a renewing of the grace conferred in our initiation.

 

[gtrenewed]

Well, that’s a silly distinction. Confession releases too (not only in the sense that it ‘releases’ us from sin), and baptism in the Holy Spirit certainly renews. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is an experience that’s supposed to take place in the context of Christian initiation (especially through the reception of baptism and/or confirmation), and a renewal of one’s awareness of the sanctifying grace bestowed by those sacraments. Confession is a sacrament itself. They do different things.

That was a simple answer to someone else’s post that you took out of context.

I don’t appreciate your flippant use of the word silly.

I have been in the CCR since 1989 with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.

If you listen to the prayers at confirmation, they center on the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit; while the baptism of the Holy Spirit focuses on the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Through our modern initiation into the faith through the sacraments of baptism and confirmation, we receive the Holy Spirit and all that He is; however, our faith is not directed to the power contained within the nine gifts. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit allows for the release of these gifts because of the renewed faith in this aspect of the Holy Spirits ministry.

Not certain why you gave the lesson on confession since my post did not indficate that I forgot my 1st grade catechism at St. Joseph the Worker Catholic grade school.

 

[vardaquinn]

That was a simple answer to someone else’s post that you took out of context.

I don’t appreciate your flippant use of the word silly.

I have been in the CCR since 1989 with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.

If you listen to the prayers at confirmation, they center on the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit; while the baptism of the Holy Spirit focuses on the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Through our modern initiation into the faith through the sacraments of baptism and confirmation, we receive the Holy Spirit and all that He is; however, our faith is not directed to the power contained within the nine gifts. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit allows for the release of these gifts because of the renewed faith in this aspect of the Holy Spirits ministry.

Not certain why you gave the lesson on confession since my post did not indficate that I forgot my 1st grade catechism at St. Joseph the Worker Catholic grade school.

No, I was just pointing out that you’re not really saying anything by claiming that confession renews, and baptism in the Holy Spirit releases, since baptism in the spirit also renews, and confession releases.

 

[gtrenewed]

No, I was just pointing out that you’re not really saying anything by claiming that confession renews, and baptism in the Holy Spirit releases, since baptism in the spirit also renews, and confession releases.

My last answer to you should have cleared it up, not sure why you are hung up on this? It is understood that everything we do with God renews and releases. There is nothing silly about that and it indeed says something very profound.

So let’s try this again. The question of the poster that I was responding to was "is the baptism of the Holy Spirit the same as being “slain in the spirit” and then saying all one has to do is be renewed by confession. I explained the difference and then agreed that confession renews and added that the Holy Spirit baptism releases.
In the context of that post I was saying something whether you get it or not.

Maybe next time you might want to ask what is meant unless there is some sort of a hidden agenda in all of this.

 

[guanophore]

My last answer to you should have cleared it up, not sure why you are hung up on this? It is understood that everything we do with God renews and releases. There is nothing silly about that and it indeed says something very profound.

So let’s try this again. The question of the poster that I was responding to was "is the baptism of the Holy Spirit the same as being “slain in the spirit” and then saying all one has to do is be renewed by confession. I explained the difference and then agreed that confession renews and added that the Holy Spirit baptism releases.
In the context of that post I was saying something whether you get it or not.

Maybe next time you might want to ask what is meant unless there is some sort of a hidden agenda in all of this.

Can we all agree that “slain in the Spirit” does not equate to any of the Sacraments, or to the “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”?

 

[vardaquinn]

Can we all agree that “slain in the Spirit” does not equate to any of the Sacraments, or to the “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”?

Yes. Being slain in the spirit is an extraordinary experience, not a charism, not a sacrament, not baptism in the Spirit. The teaching of many spiritual masters (especially St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross) are clear that such experiences, though often good and beneficial, are not to be sought after or desired and should be carefully discerned.

he question of the poster that I was responding to was "is the baptism of the Holy Spirit the same as being “slain in the spirit” and then saying all one has to do is be renewed by confession. I explained the difference and then agreed that confession renews and added that the Holy Spirit baptism releases.
In the context of that post I was saying something whether you get it or not.

I guess I misunderstood what you were saying. And again, let’s not equate being slain in the spirit with being baptized in the spirit. Two different things, even if baptism in the spirit might occur with being slain in the spirit. It didn’t for me.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Yes. Being slain in the spirit is an extraordinary experience, not a charism, not a sacrament, not baptism in the Spirit. The teaching of many spiritual masters (especially St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross) are clear that such experiences, though often good and beneficial, are not to be sought after or desired and should be carefully discerned.

One question, somewhat off topic, please excuse me: Did St, Tersea and St. John of the Cross have “catchers” - for lack of a better word? At the healing Masses that I have seen (you can youtube healing masses), no one is without a “catcher”, hence, it hardly seems extraordinary when 95% of the folks going up to be healed are writhing around on the floor after being anointed.

 

[guanophore]

One question, somewhat off topic, please excuse me: Did St, Tersea and St. John of the Cross have “catchers” - for lack of a better word? At the healing Masses that I have seen (you can youtube healing masses), no one is without a “catcher”, hence, it hardly seems extraordinary when 95% of the folks going up to be healed are writhing around on the floor after being anointed.

“Writhing” is not a gift of the Holy Spirit.

The preparation for something extraordinary to occur does not make the Source of such an occurance human, rather than divine.

We prepare for Divine Liturgy, expecting the transformation of the gifts. Preparation makes the even no less divine in origin.

 

[Mickey]

If you truly look to Scripture and Tradition you will find the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit found in the renewal today.

I’m quite certain that you will not find a description of what occurs in today’s CCR.

 

[Mickey]

Being slain in the spirit is being overwhelmed by the power of the Holy Spirit where an inner healing is taking place.

Sound like confirmation to me. “Slain in the spirit” is an innovation.

Confession renews, but Baptism of the Holy Spirit releases.

We have one baptism. And Holy Confession renews those baptismal vows…

 

[Mickey]

Did St, Tersea and St. John of the Cross have “catchers”

 

[guanophore]

I’m quite certain that you will not find a description of what occurs in today’s CCR.

I will not find a detailed description of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, either, but that does not make it less valid. That being said, there are abuses in the CCR just as there are in the Liturgy. This does not invalidate the authenthentic gifts of God.

Sound like confirmation to me. “Slain in the spirit” is an innovation.

Yes, the CCR is about unwrapping and learning to use the gifts one was given in baptism and confirmation.

Certainly the terminology is, but it would not be written about by the mytsics prior to the Reformation if it was that much of an “innovation”.

We have one baptism. And Holy Confession renews those baptismal vows…

Did you think the CCR taught otherwise?

 

[Mickey]

I will not find a detailed description of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, either

I find it rather humorous that you attempt this analogy.

there are abuses in the CCR just as there are in the Liturgy.

You will be hard pressed to find gibberish tongues, people being slain with catchers, and a multitude of other innovation… in the Holy Liturgy.

Yes, the CCR is about unwrapping and learning to use the gifts one was given in baptism and confirmation.

Unwrapping? Learning to use the gifts?

Certainly the terminology is, but it would not be written about by the mytsics prior to the Reformation if it was that much of an “innovation”.

Well…I do not know about post schism mystics writing about “slain”…but it certainly is not a patristic teaching in any sense.

 

[guanophore]

I find it rather humorous that you attempt this analogy.

Good. Perhaps you will see that what is not authentic does not invalidate what is.

You will be hard pressed to find gibberish tongues, people being slain with catchers, and a multitude of other innovation… in the Holy Liturgy.

It is against the forum rules here to talk about liturgical abuse, but all I will say is that I have seen more than I wanted of liturgical abuse, and they are not different in character than those occurring in the CCR. Authenticity is not defined by those who depart from it.

Unwrapping of? Learning to use the gifts?

Exactly. The majority of Catholics have never been taught to indentify and implement what has been imparted to them in the Sacraments.

Well…I do not know about post schism mystics writing about “slain”…but it certainly is not a patristic teaching in any sense.

Not that I have found.

 

[Mickey]

Perhaps you will see that what is not authentic does not invalidate what is.

Indeed. It is my belief that the CCR is not authentic and does not invalidate the Divine Liturgy.

I have seen more than I wanted of liturgical abuse

That is unfortunate. I do not see it in the Holy Orthodox Church…but I suppose it can exists there.

Exactly.

Really. I am not aware of there being a manual of sorts to teach how to unwrap and use these gifts that are imparted to us by the grace of God. The Holy saints, martyrs, confessors, and Fathers of the Church were sometimes blessed with a supernatural manifestation of certain gifts (of which they did not ask for). This was always a result of austere ascetism and humility and not some innovative method of unwrapping the gifts and learning how to use them.

 

[Irish_Polock]

“Writhing” is not a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Nor is being “slain in the spirit”.

The preparation for something extraordinary to occur does not make the Source of such an occurance human, rather than divine.

We prepare for Divine Liturgy, expecting the transformation of the gifts. Preparation makes the even no less divine in origin.

This “preparation” is not only physical but also mental; it has been shown in many studies that this 'preparation" often leads to a group hypnosis and hyper-arousal. This often leads to mental dissociation, and hence, supposed divine gifts manifest from this hypnotic state.

This hypnotic state is a learned behavior, and once learned, its repetition is almost assured. It has also been shown in these same studies, that it is important for the entrance into this hypnosis is the suggestive influence of persons present whom are already in this hypnotic state. Due to repeated suggestion as to what is expected of one, and the repeated appeals to “yield oneself to the power” one can postulate that these gifts are likely caused by the influence of suggestion.

 

[guanophore]

Indeed. It is my belief that the CCR is not authentic and does not invalidate the Divine Liturgy.

Allright Mr. Smart A**.

That is unfortunate. I do not see it in the Holy Orthodox Church…but I suppose it can exists there.

It is very unfortunate, but hopefully is in the process of being rectified. The Eastern Church does not seem to have suffered the liturgical contamination of modernism as much as the West.

 Really.  I am not aware of there being a manual of sorts to teach how to unwrap and use these gifts that are imparted to us by the grace of God. The Holy saints, martyrs, confessors, and Fathers of the Church were sometimes blessed with a supernatural manifestation of certain gifts (of which they did not ask for).  This was always a result of austere ascetism and humility and not some innovative method of unwrapping the gifts and learning how to use them.

Yes. I think those “manuals” are coming out of the CCR. Certainly we can always look to the saints, doctors, and monastic tradition for the characterological gifts of the HS. I suspect one reason the charimsatic gifts became sidelined is because there has been a lack of appropriate instruction, and a propensity for abuse. That, combined with the early bad press from Montanism was enough to squelch the whole thing.

 

[guanophore]

Nor is being "slain in the spirit".

It is not among the charisms listed in the NT, but it is described by St. Teresa of Avila as such, along with the gift of tears, laughter, and other phenomenon. No one who has ever personally experienced this delightful event could walk away not knowing they recieved a gift from God. However, it is not one of those gifts that is given for the upbuilding of the Church, which is the purpose of the charisms.

This "preparation" is not only physical but also mental; it has been shown in many studies that this 'preparation" often leads to a group hypnosis and hyper-arousal. This often leads to mental dissociation, and hence, supposed divine gifts manifest from this hypnotic state.

Yes, I think we observe quite a bit of this, especially in protestant ecclesial communities. We cannot say, though, that all who heard Peter’s sermon and responded similarly (5000) were under some mental dissociaiton. Just because an experience happens to a large number of people does not mean it lacks authenticity.

This hypnotic state is a learned behavior, and once learned, its repetition is almost assured. It has also been shown in these same studies, that it is important for the entrance into this hypnosis is the suggestive influence of persons present whom are already in this hypnotic state. Due to repeated suggestion as to what is expected of one, and the repeated appeals to “yield oneself to the power” one can postulate that these gifts are likely caused by the influence of suggestion.

Certainly one could so postulate. How does this explain the experiences of those who prepared opposite, and came to the meeting determined not to fall into any such state?

 

[Mickey]

That, combined with the early bad press from Montanism was enough to squelch the whole thing.

The term, “bad press” is an understatement when speaking of a heresy.

Penetecostalism revived it 100 years ago…then Catholics aped it from them in the late sixties. These types of things never go away completely…they resurface in deceitful ways.

The gifts have never been “squelched”…but the way in which some people think they can be “unwrapped” and “learned”, is unfortunate.