Speaking in tongues?

[guanophore]

The term, "bad press" is an understatement when speaking of a heresy. :D

I was not speaking of a heresy. The Charismatic gifts are not a heresy. They got bad press because they were tied up in one.

Penetecostalism revived it 100 years ago…then Catholics aped it from them in the late sixties. These types of things never go away completely…they resurface in deceitful ways.

Modern Pentecostalism does, indeed, have some of the marks of Montanism, but the CCR does not. The key difference is submission to Church authority. Those who don’t do so should be avoided.

 The gifts have never been "squelched"......but the way in which some people think they can be "unwrapped" and "learned", is unfortunate.

Gifts were already being squelched in the NT times, which is why the Apostle wrote to them “do not quench the Spirit”. What is unfortunate about each individual discerning what gifts were given to them, and using those gifts for what God intended?

 

[Mickey]

I was not speaking of a heresy. The Charismatic gifts are not a heresy.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are definitely not heresy. But the CCR is something different.

Modern Pentecostalism does, indeed, have some of the marks of Montanism, but the CCR does not. The key difference is submission to Church authority.

I’m sorry…but the CCR is an obvious aping of the Pentecostalist movement. Just because you say that there is submission to “Church authority” does not make it legitimate. If I’m not mistaken, the CCR was completely laity inspired and influenced by the growing pentecostalist movement.

Gifts were already being squelched in the NT times,

Some were becoming obscure like tongues. But nothing was being “squelched”.

 

[Irish_Polock]

It is not among the charisms listed in the NT, but it is described by St. Teresa of Avila as such, along with the gift of tears, laughter, and other phenomenon. No one who has ever personally experienced this delightful event could walk away not knowing they recieved a gift from God. However, it is not one of those gifts that is given for the upbuilding of the Church, which is the purpose of the charisms.

This is how you validate these gift? One mystics writings? Could St. Teresa have been in error thinking they were of God? Could those whom have personally experienced these “delightful” events be in error?

Yes, I think we observe quite a bit of this, especially in protestant ecclesial communities. We cannot say, though, that all who heard Peter’s sermon and responded similarly (5000) were under some mental dissociaiton. Just because an experience happens to a large number of people does not mean it lacks authenticity.

What exactly happened to the 5000 in Acts 4 that I have missed? Did they receive an extraordinary gift? If so, which one? I can not even make out if the 3000 in Acts 2 had an extraordinary gift, other then the gift of confirmation. Please clarify your statement.

Additionally, I would say that because it happens to a large number of people nowadays it is generally not of divine origin.

Certainly one could so postulate. How does this explain the experiences of those who prepared opposite, and came to the meeting determined not to fall into any such state?

This hypnotic state can be contagious, - and studies have shown that it is - so the explanation is clear, they were “caught” up in the ecstasy; even if it was against their will.

 

[guanophore]

This is how you validate these gift?

No. I was not trying to “validate” anything. I was simply agreeing with you that the falling phenomenon is not among the charismatic gifts described by the Apostle Paul.

One mystics writings? Could St. Teresa have been in error thinking they were of God? Could those whom have personally experienced these “delightful” events be in error?

Yes, of course she can be in error. Her writings are not considered infallible.

What exactly happened to the 5000 in Acts 4 that I have missed? Did they receive an extraordinary gift? If so, which one? I can not even make out if the 3000 in Acts 2 had an extraordinary gift, other then the gift of confirmation. Please clarify your statement.

The HS acted upon them, and they were converted, and baptized.

Acts 2:37-39

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Additionally, I would say that because it happens to a large number of people nowadays it is generally not of divine origin.

On what basis?

This hypnotic state can be contagious, - and studies have shown that it is - so the explanation is clear, they were “caught” up in the ecstasy; even if it was against their will.

Yes, it can be.