Speaking in tongues?

[Road2Damascus]

This is a good thread. To keep it simple, one thing I would wonder about IS could one be sure that if they received the Gift of Glossolalia that it is from the Holy Spirit or from an other place? I too have been to services where people would assert they are speaking in tongues. I read a discussion where one asserted that a person in a missionary type role started talking Swahili in Africa. This would make some sense.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

This is a good thread. To keep it simple, one thing I would wonder about IS could one be sure that if they received the Gift of Glossolalia that it is from the Holy Spirit or from an other place? I too have been to services where people would assert they are speaking in tongues. I read a discussion where one asserted that a person in a missionary type role started talking Swahili in Africa. This would make some sense.

My dad is a Pentecostal minister. He told me he had witnessed experiences when the tongues ended up being a true language he could recognize.

One woman began praying in French. My dad turned to the woman, and asked ‘Sister, I had no idea you could speak French!’ She replied ‘But I don’t speak French!’

At another gathering, a woman was very obviously speaking in English. Again, she had no idea.

Usually, the tongues that are generally dismissed as “babble” are frequently misunderstood, both by those who practice them and those who don’t. When in worship, if you hear tongues being spoken openly and loudly, there should be an interpretation, as Paul said, because the whole church needs to be edified. If there is no interpretation, then the speaker can pray softly to himself. Paul accepts both as legitimate, but in Corinthians he was responding to chaos that was engulfing the church there as a result of confusion regarding tongues.

I’ve witnessed a man at our old non-denominational church who would exhort loudly in tongues, and all of a sudden you could feel an amazing presence, and he would immediately interpret what he had said. The sensation was overpowering. And it was done orderly and properly, as Paul requested.

 

[guanophore]

What does it mean when people say they speak in tongues? I’m referring to non-Catholics, particularly protestants of the evangelical type, like those in megachurches. I’m intrigued at these claims. As for as I know, I think this claim has something to do with them believing in baptism by the Holy Spirit, etc. Are they actually able to speak multiple languages without having to learn them?

This is only one variety of tongues, as manifested by the Apostles on Pentecost. But there are many abuses of this gift, that run especially rampant in communities that are separated from Apostolic instruction and authority. Contrary to what the Apostles’ taught, the gifts are not manifested “decently and in order”.

All Catholics are “baptized in the Holy Spirit” during water baptism, when we are sealed with a circumcision made without hands. Most Catholics, however, are not taught about the charismatic gifts, and never learn to use them.

Did they just wake up one morning only to find out that they can speak the world’s languages, even those long dead? Or are these people lying (or insane, depending on how you look at it)?

I will admit that I have woken up realzing that I was praying and singing in tongues in my dreams, but it is not “the world’s languages” but the tongues of angels (unknown to the world). You are right, though, some languages that have been recorded are no longer extant languages. You are also right that some people are making it up (just expressing gibberish to fit in with everyone else). I don’t think it is insane, but it can have a demonic origin as well as a holy one.

I have no doubt that this is indeed possible, like for the apostles during Pentecost. It just intrigues me how so many Christians boast of this “ability”. I seriously doubt if they’re genuine haha )

It is very inappropriate to “boast” about anything that God gives. Such boasting would indicate that the person is out of order. People’s abuse of the gift, though, does not invalidate the gift. For example, if you heard a person boasting that God made him a priest, it would be inappropriate,but that would not invalidate his gift or his call. It would just show a spiritual immaturity, which is very common among persons who seek after this particular gift and abuse it.

 

[guanophore]

Also do a youtube search for “speaking in tongues.” Some of the stuff you see there is rather shocking.

It is a sad fact that it is the rampant abuses that get the press. How often has anyone heard or known of St. Teresa of Avila sharing her experieince of speaking in tongues?

My understanding of the authentic phenomenon is that it exists in two forms.  1) People speaking in a language previously unknown to them; and 2) People speaking in what St. Paul called angelic tongues.  In the first instance it would be like me speaking Russian to someone from Moscow who didn't speak English. In the second case I understand that **if someone is speaking in "angelic tongues" someone else should be interpreting the speech for those listening**.

An interpretation is called for during an assembly, when the assembly is being addressed. This does not apply to private prayers.

 However, my suspicion is that the vast majority of the people "speaking in tongues" in these mega-churches and on youtube are simply babbling because they think they're supposed to.

Peace,

I am sure that this does occur, but I don’t think any research has occurred that determines how much of it is made up babble. The misuse of God’s gifts doesn not invalidate the gifts.

All I know is what I’ve seen and read.

Based upon what I’ve seen I simply can’t think of anything that looks, sounds and seems to be quite as disrespectful, irreverent and downright sacrilegious as some of the things I’ve seen posted by devout Pentecostals on the web.

Yes, I can testify that there are rampant and downright embarrassing abuses.

Based upon what I’ve read, linguists who have studied the utterances say they represent no known language or even pattern of sound that could be understood as language.

This would certainly be consistent with the scriptural account.

1 Cor 14:1-2
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

They say that the glossolalia that they have studied to involves the same two or three sounds repeated over and over and over and over. They also say that the sound patterns vary depending on the native language and dialect of the speaker, and that speakers from the same congregations tend to sound alike. Go figure.

This would certainly seem to indicate that this practice is at least somewhat “learned”.

As to what you “feel”? People do and say many silly things based upon what they feel.

They can, but they can also rise above their limitations and do things that are courageous, and holy. Feelings need not be excluded from spiritual experience, just not become the basis of them. It is not wrong to feel close to God in prayer, or to be overcome emotionally by HIs presence. What I have observed is that abuses occur where emotions are not properly situated.

doesn’t there have to be some sort of objective standard of behavior that is considered acceptable and reverent?

Indeed, and I think this is the major contributor to the many abuses of the charismatic gifts. The vast majority of those seeking and using them have been separated from the authority that Christ appointed over His Church. Without proper shepherding, objective standards quickly get lost, and abuses abound. We have witnessed this in the Mass, also, when certain celebrants take it upon themselves to depart from the GIRM for example.

Also, doesn't St. Paul say that these things (prophesy and tongues) must be "done properly and in order."?And isn't that part of the overall problem?  Basically, no one is in charge.

Exactly.

On the other hand, before a miracle (a cure for example) is to be be accepted by the Church and used for purposes of a Beatification or a Canonization that miracle is repeatedly examined by secular doctors and other scientists. If the docs can explain the “miracle” through normal scientific means then the “miracle” is not seen as genuine. Doesn’t it make sense that if people are going to be speaking in tongues as a regular and on going part of the worship service that at least some aspect of it ought to stand up to at least some scientific scrutiny? Of course, the same could be said of transubstantiation.Then how are we to know the babblers from the real deal?

Peace,

I have to say, I am amazed at the number of devout Catholics that reject the Teaching of the Church on this particular gift, and the charismatic experience in general. It seems that the rampant abuses have left people in a state of distrust and fear.

 

[guanophore]

 I'm not all together grasping this. Why isn't the Holy Spirit working through ALL the other Christians in this very way then?  Doesn't this make you wonder?:shrug:

I think this is a very good question. Scripture says:

1 Cor 12:4-11

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

One would have to surmise that the HS does not deem it necessary or expedient for everyone to have each gift. That being said, I think it is important for Catholics to know that the HS has given each gift to everyone in potentiality. When we are sealed by the HS in baptism, everything is put in place so that any gift that is needed is available within each of us. The same God inspires them in everyone. Some of those gifts may never be manifested, while others may be manifested daily. Padre Pio, for example, exercised the gift if knowledge regularly. God revealed to him things about the people that came to him in confession, and he would confront them.

Can you prove this simply isn’t a learned behavior? I’ll admit I have viewed this only on the surface. But these questions come immediately to mind.

Peace

The authentic charismatic gifts have their origin in God, and would not be “simply a learned behavior” from a human point of view. That being said, it is necessary for people to learn to use their gifts, whatever they are. Most Catholics never unwrap the charismatic part of their baptism, and it remains in ignorance and unuse.

In my confirmation, the characterological gifts were emphasized:

Isa 11:2-3
2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him,
the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of counsel and might,
the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
3 And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD.

These are all gifts that must be “learned”. Of course one is to expect the grace of God at work in one to will and to do His good pleasure, but all these gifts are such that we grow into them and cathect them as we learn.

There’s no question about the truth, that you are tapping into a completely different part of your brain. Same as with contemplative/meditative prayer.

I think this is a very unknown and misunderstood point about praying in tongues.

1 Cor 14:13-14
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.

Many will then say, what is the point of that kind of prayer? To that I would say, spiritual growth:

1 Cor 14:4
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself,

This is a form of prayer intended to build up the individual in their relationship with God. There is also something to be said for getting out of one’s head during prayer.

 I don't see a good/bad here. I see different.

It strikes me that it is similar to a Benedictine or other lifestyle and form of worship. They are just as Catholic as Augustinian orders, but their way of living the devoted life varies.

You probly re-searched this more with the Bible than I have. I have read these scripture’s a few time’s. I assumed St Paul was talking about people who were speaking a different language. I “thought” being that he was educated and traved extensively, this was where he was coming from. Apparently I was wrong, another conversation for another day I suppose.

Clearly he mentions both known and unknown languages.

  Geez, you would be acting without having a clue of what might happen.

Peace

I think this is the main reason the Charismatic gifts are not flourid at Confirmation as they were in the early Church. It is a lack of instruction, and the recipients not having that clue about how it works.

 

[Road2Damascus]

Related to the Charismatic movement would be Healing by laying hands on someone. We had a service in our Catholic Church with someone who does do that, Catholic of course, I probably don’t need to mention a name. And then, at the end of the service, it was finished with a ‘healing’ service and people would kneel before the alter and hands were laid on the people by this man who seems totally in accord with the Church. When people surrounded the altar, kneeling and leaning on the rail, the Church had people standing behind who would “catch” the people, should they fall back as a safety precaution. I was actually called into help in this and yes, people would fall back as if struck by a bolt of lightning though of course, that is only to describe what happened and not really like getting hit by a bolt of lightning. Furthermore, there is ‘something’ our Church offers in one program on Tues. night and sometimes people do project some utterances but really it is only a few syllables or words so this to me, is not convincing. I have been to an Ecumenical Service likewise where this same phenomenon occurred.

 

[Humupower]

My advice would really be to anyone who thinks they have a spiritual gift, only use it in the proper setting and context, and make sure you are in the presence of people who are holy and who also have gifts. If you feel you have been given a gift such as tongues or prophecy, pray a great deal about it. God will give you the discernment that you need. Diving in is not a good idea because spiritual maturity and understanding are necessities in appropriate and responsible use.

Such gifts can seem bizarre to those un-used to them, but if done in the right context, people should not see them as abuses or as strange. For a whole congregation to do it in a liturgical setting, it is going to seem like anarchy. I think people should only participate in this sort of thing in a more intimate situation.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Can anyone refer me to the research done by any linguist whose studies show that a person “speaking in tongues” is speaking a real langauge, as opposed to nonsense syllables?

Thanks,

Jim Dandy

 

[CopticChristian]

The point of the gift as it is often describe to me, is that it allows you to continue to praise and marvel in God even after you exhaust the restraints of your native language.

God is holy, mighty, powerful, merciful, loving, just, good, kind, beneficent, wise, forgiving… eventually you run out of adjectives, and yet the heart still desires to praise. Tongues allows you to still pray and say that which is pleasing to God when you have exhausted the limits of language.

I think this phenomenon is actually wide spread in terms that there are many in churches around the world who can participate in this. It’s just with our well defined mass structure, these gifts do not have a part in our normal worship liturgy, and so they only belong in extra-liturgical activities.

Certain things can only be accomplished in fasting, others in prayer, still others through works of the body. Just as the fruits of the holy spirit are only realized in confirmation, the gifts of the spirit are only conferred in baptism of the holy spirit.

Consider apparitions of the Blessed Virgin - she does not appear to everyone, yet many of the most noted ones were to people who would seem to be chosen at random to the outside observer.

I believe that it would be difficult to impossible to correlate vision, sight, sound, taste, smell and touch as you are doing. Those that see and those that gibberish cannot be compared. The comparison would have to be seeing something that would not be understood by those that see. The comparison is not valid.

 

[CopticChristian]

Can anyone refer me to the research done by any linguist whose studies show that a person “speaking in tongues” is speaking a real langauge, as opposed to nonsense syllables?

Thanks,

Jim Dandy

You will be waiting for a very long time. It is my belief and understanding that it does not exist. I will wait with you.

 

[CopticChristian]

As counter point to some of the posts I see here, let me refer you to my own experience and position on this subject.

What I have learned about tongues…

Read all of your posts and I agree.

 

[Road2Damascus]

I believe that it would be difficult to impossible to correlate vision, sight, sound, taste, smell and touch as you are doing. Those that see and those that gibberish cannot be compared. The comparison would have to be seeing something that would not be understood by those that see. The comparison is not valid.

ecalpemos.org/2011/01/is-speaking-in-tongues-real.html It’s a source of debate, here’s a piece but it appears to be a wide-scaled argument. What I don’t find convincing is just uttering a few words or syllables. Likewise I don’t dismiss it conclusively as well.

Likewise, the blog cited talks about “brain scans”, I watched the nightline piece on brain scans at youtube. The scientist on Nightline was saying some parts of the brains were not being used during speaking in tongues that one uses when they are just speaking to someone. Of course, this is imprecise science. It sounds like the blog part referring to brain scans and the nightline piece was using a different scientist with a different but not clear conclusion nonetheless. Something to take note of all the same.

 

[guanophore]

Can anyone refer me to the research done by any linguist whose studies show that a person “speaking in tongues” is speaking a real langauge, as opposed to nonsense syllables?

Thanks,

Jim Dandy

It is an error to assume that syllables spokent are “nonsense” just because they do not belong to a modern known language.Scripture is clear that there are authentic tongues that will not be intelligible.

1 Cor 14:2
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

 

[guanophore]

You will be waiting for a very long time. It is my belief and understanding that it does not exist. I will wait with you.

Do you all really believe the Magesterium would support something that is bogus? Do you think such phenomena have not been validated by the Holy See? I can understand being skeptical about the phenomena themselves, but to have such doubts about the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church just seems like an overdose of skepticism.

A Research Study
While speaking in tongues, people experience a sharp decrease in frontal lobe function, the area of the brain that enables reason and self-control. Glossolalia responses were the opposite of those of people in a meditative state. When people meditate their frontal lobe activity increases, while their parietal activity decreases, says psychiatrist Andrew Newberg at the University of Pennsylvania on top of investigations.

But there is more to it: “Contrary to what may be a common perception, studies suggest that people who speak in tongues rarely suffer from mental problems”, and “Researchers have identified at least two forms of the practice, one ecstatic and frenzied, the other subdued and nearly silent.” [Skeptic’s Dictionary, sv. “glossolalia”; NY Times, “A Neuroscientific Look at Speaking in Tongues”
[www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html]

I have not read of any scientific studies initiated by the Vatican, but that does not mean they were not done. They are quite rigorous before supporting any supernatural phenomenon.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

You will be waiting for a very long time. It is my belief and understanding that it does not exist. I will wait with you.

So the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church which you have been strenuously defending is apparently not has Holy and Apostolic as you thought it was?

 

[Road2Damascus]

The blog I cited states:

Analysis by linguists have shown that the majority of word forms uttered are open (that is that they end with a vowel). Most words of most known languages end with a consonant so a string of apparent words all ending in vowels are unlikely to be any real language. ecalpemos.org/2011/01/is-speaking-in-tongues-real.html

.

This is a dicey statement. Take the Latin language of Spanish, “Me llamo " , French, "Je M’apelle” meaning my name is. I think the Italians say “Chiamo”, something like this. But it is a fair point that if all of the words were to end in a vowel, that is a bit curious. If you just said it is because it is a heavenly language, I’m not sure if that is reasonable.

Japanese, 'my name is ____" goes "Watashiwa ____ desu.

 

[CopticChristian]

Do you all really believe the Magesterium would support something that is bogus? Do you think such phenomena have not been validated by the Holy See? I can understand being skeptical about the phenomena themselves, but to have such doubts about the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church just seems like an overdose of skepticism.

A Research Study
While speaking in tongues, people experience a sharp decrease in frontal lobe function, the area of the brain that enables reason and self-control. Glossolalia responses were the opposite of those of people in a meditative state. When people meditate their frontal lobe activity increases, while their parietal activity decreases, says psychiatrist Andrew Newberg at the University of Pennsylvania on top of investigations.

But there is more to it: “Contrary to what may be a common perception, studies suggest that people who speak in tongues rarely suffer from mental problems”, and “Researchers have identified at least two forms of the practice, one ecstatic and frenzied, the other subdued and nearly silent.” [Skeptic’s Dictionary, sv. “glossolalia”; NY Times, “A Neuroscientific Look at Speaking in Tongues”
[www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html]

I have not read of any scientific studies initiated by the Vatican, but that does not mean they were not done. They are quite rigorous before supporting any supernatural phenomenon.

Am I obligated to believe in tongues de fide like the Assumption, yes or no?

 

[CopticChristian]

So the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church which you have been strenuously defending is apparently not has Holy and Apostolic as you thought it was?

Your conclusion makes no sense.

So, based on…it appears…that …etc. I cannot read your mind.

 

[Road2Damascus]

I’m making some headway in this book called “Holy Roller” amazon.com/Holy-Roller-Finding-Redemption-Forgotten/dp/1400074959 trying to gain some insight to the phenomenon, I believe it is a somewhat “mainstream media” book, meaning not in particularly a book you would find in an Agape Christian bookstore alongside those of Dr. Dobson for example, it was in our public library. This lady found a small Pentecostal Church in the Dallas area in 1990 when that South Dallas area was having epidemic violence. The lady herself comes from Wisconsin. It seems like an honest account so far.

 

[CopticChristian]

It is an error to assume that syllables spokent are “nonsense” just because they do not belong to a modern known language.Scripture is clear that there are authentic tongues that will not be intelligible.

1 Cor 14:2
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

And in Romans Paul says that even our groans are turned into prayer. John Chrysostom explains your passage and the one that follows as follows:

At this point he makes a comparison between the gifts, and lowers that of the tongues, showing it to be neither altogether useless, nor very profitable by itself. For in fact they were greatly puffed up on account of this, because the gift was considered to be a great one. And it was thought great because the Apostles received it first, and with so great display; it was not however therefore to be esteemed above all the others. Wherefore then did the Apostles receive it before the rest? Because they were to go abroad every where. And as in the time of building the tower the one tongue was divided into many; so then the many tongues frequently met in one man, and the same person used to discourse both in the Persian, and the Roman, and the Indian, and many other tongues, the Spirit sounding within him: and the gift was called the gift of tongues because he could all at once speak various languages. See accordingly how he both depresses and elevates it. Thus, by saying, “He that speaks with tongues, speaks not unto men, but unto God, for no man understands,” he depressed it, implying that the profit of it was not great; but by adding, “but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries” he again elevated it, that it might not seem to be superfluous and useless and given in vain.