Speaking in tongues?

[Road2Damascus]

Here in town, of all things a professor at a Catholic University has some sort of Charismatic meetings on the weekends and I’ve gone before. I don’t think he himself is Catholic though maybe he is. His meetings are presented as being “Ecumenical”. I attended a few of these services as a spectator and may again. It seemed a bit more acceptable to go to these with the Ecumenical invitation from a professor who works for a Catholic University though basically, I think it is just a Pentecostal Service and that’s fine as well. On the other hand, the likes of Jimmy Swaggart and others, not to look uncharitably at such men, but you’d hear him ever so often “speak in tongues” if for nothing longer than a phrase and then wonder. I haven’t heard anything really longer than a phrase except in some of the filmed “documented” cases.

 

[hn160]

Here in town, of all things a professor at a Catholic University has some sort of Charismatic meetings on the weekends and I’ve gone before. I don’t think he himself is Catholic though maybe he is. His meetings are presented as being “Ecumenical”. I attended a few of these services as a spectator and may again. It seemed a bit more acceptable to go to these with the Ecumenical invitation from a professor who works for a Catholic University though basically, I think it is just a Pentecostal Service and that’s fine as well. On the other hand, the likes of Jimmy Swaggart and others, not to look uncharitably at such men, but you’d hear him ever so often “speak in tongues” if for nothing longer than a phrase and then wonder. I haven’t heard anything really longer than a phrase except in some of the filmed “documented” cases.

I don’t know why some Lutherans and Catholic want to be wannabe Pentecostals or Baptist when they both have the rich traditional liturgy and doctrine.

 

[guanophore]

Am I obligated to believe in tongues de fide like the Assumption, yes or no?

It is part of the deposit of faith. Of course, you can be a “cafeteria catholic” and reject part of the divine revelation.

Your conclusion makes no sense.

So, based on…it appears…that …etc. I cannot read your mind.

You are rejecting the teaching of the Church, which means you really don’t consider the Church to be what she claims to be.

If you don’t accept the teaching of the Magesterium, then you must believe they are teaching falsely.

 

[guanophore]

I’m making some headway in this book called “Holy Roller” amazon.com/Holy-Roller-Finding-Redemption-Forgotten/dp/1400074959 trying to gain some insight to the phenomenon, I believe it is a somewhat “mainstream media” book, meaning not in particularly a book you would find in an Agape Christian bookstore alongside those of Dr. Dobson for example, it was in our public library. This lady found a small Pentecostal Church in the Dallas area in 1990 when that South Dallas area was having epidemic violence. The lady herself comes from Wisconsin. It seems like an honest account so far.

Do yourself a favor, and read some Catholic stuff instead.

nsc-chariscenter.org/Resources/

and see if you can find a prayer meeting that is supported by your diocese, rather than an “ecumenical” one. One led by, or closely monitored by an ordained person (priest or deacon).

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know why some Lutherans and Catholic want to be wannabe Pentecostals or Baptist when they both have the rich traditional liturgy and doctrine.

Some people have a difficult time bringing their emotions into worship with liturgy. The Charismatic experience enables people to harness the emotions and bring them into worship. This is especially helpful for people who have had trouble connecting in a personal way with Christ through the Sacraments. Usually persons who have charismatic expereinces are then able to enter and appreciate the sacramental life of the Church.

The other benefit is that it brings people into the daily experience of their faith, so that they read and pray daily. This is important for “Sunday Catholics” who have not incorporated the life of Christ into their daily experience. Of course there are many styles of Christian living that can do this, but the charismatic is one that works for many people.

I have learned that people who avoid or abrogate this style are often those who have control issues with themselves (are afraid of losing control) and avoid their emotions as dangerous.

 

[CopticChristian]

It is part of the deposit of faith. Of course, you can be a “cafeteria catholic” and reject part of the divine revelation.

You are rejecting the teaching of the Church, which means you really don’t consider the Church to be what she claims to be.

If you don’t accept the teaching of the Magesterium, then you must believe they are teaching falsely.

Originally Posted by CopticChristian
Am I obligated to believe in tongues de fide like the Assumption, yes or no?

You did not answer my question yes/no

 

[guanophore]

You did not answer my question yes/no

The charismatic gifts are part of the doctrine of the faith. The Assumption is a dogma. By separating dogmas from doctrine you are creating a false dichotomy. Dogmas proceed out of doctrines. They are not separated from one another.

The Church has never found a need to make a dogma out of charismatic gifts. I suppose, if it becomes necessary to do so, then yes, it will be the same.

 

[Road2Damascus]

Do yourself a favor, and read some Catholic stuff instead.

nsc-chariscenter.org/Resources/

and see if you can find a prayer meeting that is supported by your diocese, rather than an “ecumenical” one. One led by, or closely monitored by an ordained person (priest or deacon).

Okay, please suggest a Catholic Charismatic Book. If you can not do that, perhaps you should not pretend to know the hearts of other people.

 

[Road2Damascus]

Do yourself a favor, and read some Catholic stuff instead.

nsc-chariscenter.org/Resources/

and see if you can find a prayer meeting that is supported by your diocese, rather than an “ecumenical” one. One led by, or closely monitored by an ordained person (priest or deacon).

This excerpt indeed shows the book “The Cross and the switchblade” seems to be a part of what brought the Renewal Movement to the forefront.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal

Believers felt that “God’s action” was also prepared for in a very human way by the students’ prayerful preparation in reading the Acts of the Apostles and a book entitled The Cross and the Switchblade.[2]

I have a Catholic Prayer Book to the Holy Spirit by the way.

Also, the Book I mentioned centers on a black community Church. Martin Luther King belonged to this same Church. It’s really about too, the way this Church was rooted into African American history.

 

[Road2Damascus]

I don’t know why some Lutherans and Catholic want to be wannabe Pentecostals or Baptist when they both have the rich traditional liturgy and doctrine.

I agree with this, some times, it’s just a matter of keeping up with what is being discussed, most of my books went into storage, the library had this book available to read. Likewise, I guess the “Cross and Switchblade” book was read by people of different denominations and did indeed, help spur this movement on.

Believers felt that “God’s action” was also prepared for in a very human way by the students’ prayerful preparation in reading the Acts of the Apostles and a book entitled The Cross and the Switchblade.[2]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal

But the book I am reading what really about African American Churches and in fact, the same Church that Martin Luther King belonged to. Churches of God in Christ. The book also is talking about this occurring at a time of very high crime in South Dallas. I mean, anyone who has seen those kinds of neighborhoods know they seem like neighborhoods that seem very far from God as far as bad things going on and I was curious about what the take on this was additionally.

 

[CopticChristian]

The charismatic gifts are part of the doctrine of the faith. The Assumption is a dogma. By separating dogmas from doctrine you are creating a false dichotomy. Dogmas proceed out of doctrines. They are not separated from one another.

The Church has never found a need to make a dogma out of charismatic gifts. I suppose, if it becomes necessary to do so, then yes, it will be the same.

newadvent.org/cathen/03588e.htm

•The charisma of interpretation is, then, the necessary complement of glossolalia; when interpretation is not forthcoming, the speaker with tongues shall hold his peace (ibid., 13, 27, 28). Interpretation is the work either of the speaker himself or of another (ibid., 27). It takes the form of an intelligible address; the explanation was to follow the speech with tongues as regularly as the discerning of spirits succeeded prophecy (1 Corinthians 14:28, 29).

I can live with this. I believe that absent interpretation I should have my peace as the speaker holds their peace.

 

[guanophore]

Okay, please suggest a Catholic Charismatic Book. If you can not do that, perhaps you should not pretend to know the hearts of other people.

There are resources on the link I provided. I have not presumed to know the heart of anyone. Many people with good hearts have unwittingly embraced heresies.

 

[Road2Damascus]

There are resources on the link I provided. I have not presumed to know the heart of anyone. Many people with good hearts have unwittingly embraced heresies.

Seek and Ye shall find, I had these books I once bought at a Church sale…by Sister Francis Clare. And in the first or second Chapter, yes, she says as a Nun one of her first experiences was going to a Charismatic meeting led by an Assembly of God Minister!! So, you may claim a victory of sorts. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=101542&highlight=sister+francis+clare She is written about here… so such does exist. Here is a Catholic Charismatic website too from the Archdiocese of Arlington (I assume) Va. arlingtonrenewal.org/

Again, just because one reads on John Calvin, the Dalai Lama, Martin Luther King or Abraham does not mean one is embracing those faiths.

 

[guanophore]

Seek and Ye shall find, I had these books I once bought at a Church sale…by Sister Francis Clare. And in the first or second Chapter, yes, she says as a Nun one of her first experiences was going to a Charismatic meeting led by an Assembly of God Minister!! So, you may claim a victory of sorts. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=101542&highlight=sister+francis+clare She is written about here… so such does exist. Here is a Catholic Charismatic website too from the Archdiocese of Arlington (I assume) Va. arlingtonrenewal.org/

Again, just because one reads on John Calvin, the Dalai Lama, Martin Luther King or Abraham does not mean one is embracing those faiths.

I had the good fortune of hearing Sister Francis Clare, and her writings were very influential to me also after I had been in Pentecostal assemblies. What truth these separated ecclesial communities retain comes from the CC, so it makes more sense to read from where the fulness of faith resides. If one wants to learn about the original deposit of faith, it will be found in the CC. Each and every Protestant community/denomination distinguishes itself by which/how many/and extent to which they depart from the deposit of faith.

 

[Road2Damascus]

I had the good fortune of hearing Sister Francis Clare, and her writings were very influential to me also after I had been in Pentecostal assemblies. What truth these separated ecclesial communities retain comes from the CC, so it makes more sense to read from where the fulness of faith resides. If one wants to learn about the original deposit of faith, it will be found in the CC. Each and every Protestant community/denomination distinguishes itself by which/how many/and extent to which they depart from the deposit of faith.

Well, we are talking apples and oranges here, since most of my own books are in storage, I went to the library and checked out some books. Now, other faiths are still are brothers. A book that I will always be glad I read was a book on Billy Graham, again, I went to Church sales basically, Catholic Church sales and was able to pick up a few books. After the Billy Graham book which I think was rather good, it would be hard to find many other protestant books I’ve read honestly. One other, I can’t remember on prophecy, so many people have read something like the “Late Great Planet Earth”, I;'ve read the “Greatest story ever told” and actually, the author of that is Fulton Oursler.

This site deals with apologetics, sometimes it is invaluable to have an idea where who you might end up debating is coming from.

But no big deal, it sounded like I was plugging this Ecumenical Event but if we are talking about Speaking in Tongues, oh dear, we really do need to know where people are coming from, what they say per an apologetics debate.

 

[hn160]

Some people have a difficult time bringing their emotions into worship with liturgy. The Charismatic experience enables people to harness the emotions and bring them into worship. This is especially helpful for people who have had trouble connecting in a personal way with Christ through the Sacraments. Usually persons who have charismatic expereinces are then able to enter and appreciate the sacramental life of the Church.

The other benefit is that it brings people into the daily experience of their faith, so that they read and pray daily. This is important for “Sunday Catholics” who have not incorporated the life of Christ into their daily experience. Of course there are many styles of Christian living that can do this, but the charismatic is one that works for many people.

I have learned that people who avoid or abrogate this style are often those who have control issues with themselves (are afraid of losing control) and avoid their emotions as dangerous.

But what happens to the faithful that go to these services and find that they can’t speak in tongues? Do they go away disappointed?
Whether one is Roman Catholic or Lutheran, God comes to us in Word and Sacrament. That is the way that we can experience God.

 

[guanophore]

But what happens to the faithful that go to these services and find that they can’t speak in tongues? Do they go away disappointed?

I suppose that depends upon the person. I have had dialogue with a number of Catholics here that believe it is all a bunch of jibberish and demonic nonsense. Such persons who go to a service and leave finding they did not experience that which they abhor are relieved they were able to escape unscathed.

Others who misunderstand the Gifts of the Holy Spirit may be disappointed because they have a wrong attitude about receiving His gifts.

Some are disappointed because they are peer pressured and faked it to fit in with everyone.

Anyone who has been sealed by the HS has the potential to speak in tongues.

Whether one is Roman Catholic or Lutheran, God comes to us in Word and Sacrament. That is the way that we can experience God.

Indeed yes. People also experience Him in Spirit filled prayer meetings where the charismatic gifts are alive, well, and active. The two are quite complementary, and not mutually exclusive.

 

[Road2Damascus]

I suppose that depends upon the person. I have had dialogue with a number of Catholics here that believe it is all a bunch of jibberish and demonic nonsense. Such persons who go to a service and leave finding they did not experience that which they abhor are relieved they were able to escape unscathed.

Others who misunderstand the Gifts of the Holy Spirit may be disappointed because they have a wrong attitude about receiving His gifts.

Some are disappointed because they are peer pressured and faked it to fit in with everyone.

Anyone who has been sealed by the HS has the potential to speak in tongues.

Indeed yes. People also experience Him in Spirit filled prayer meetings where the charismatic gifts are alive, well, and active. The two are quite complementary, and not mutually exclusive.

If the tongue can NOT be interpreted, the speaker should remain quiet. Likewise, we need to heed Paul’s advice and NOT get caught up in solely the emotional experience. One needs to follow what Paul says.

1 Cor. 14: [26] How is it then, brethren? When you come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation: let all things be done to edification. [27] If any speak with a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and in course, and let one interpret. [28] But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God. [29] And let the prophets speak, two or three; and let the rest judge. [30] But if any thing be revealed to another sitting, let the first hold his peace.

drbo.org/chapter/53014.htm

 

[FabiusMaximus]

But what happens to the faithful that go to these services and find that they can’t speak in tongues? Do they go away disappointed?
Whether one is Roman Catholic or Lutheran, God comes to us in Word and Sacrament. That is the way that we can experience God.

Tongues doesn’t make anyone “holier” or “better” as a Christian than anyone else. It is, however, another experience that we can all achieve, though not all necessarily get it.

I would hope they do not go away disappointed from a charismatic service, because no one should “expect” to speak in tongues. I’ve never spoken in tongues, and yet I still find charismatic services as good.

For a Catholic, the charismatic movement shouldn’t be considered by non-charismatic Catholics as a substitute or replacement of the liturgy or the Mass or the sacraments, but instead, as a supplement to it.

We as Christians do not have to choose one or the other. We can have both. But it must all be done in a fitting and proper way.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Your conclusion makes no sense.

So, based on…it appears…that …etc. I cannot read your mind.

The Catholic Church has clearly come out in favor of the charismatic movement. Your categorical rejection of the charismatic movement is a clear rejection of one of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Since the Catholic Church, according to you, is THE Church, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, then you should humbly accept the legitimacy of the charismatic movement just as the Apostolic Church has taught.