These are the same types of issues I found in pentecostal and charismatic non-denominational churches.
So, if I understand you correctly, charismatic services are separate from the mass? Or do some charismatic congregations incorporate speaking in tongues, etc in the mass?
I’m not perfectly knowledgeable about the Catholic experience, so you will have to excuse me on that, but I think Holy and all-knowing Wikipedia implies that it is separate.
I have experienced this myself but this is an incorrect attitude. There should never be the implication that tongues make a person a “better Christian.” But it is a powerful spiritual tool.
Ha ha.I think this is a very good question. Scripture says:
1 Cor 12:4-11
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
One would have to surmise that the HS does not deem it necessary or expedient for everyone to have each gift. That being said, I think it is important for Catholics to know that the HS has given each gift to everyone in potentiality. When we are sealed by the HS in baptism, everything is put in place so that any gift that is needed is available within each of us. The same God inspires them in everyone. Some of those gifts may never be manifested, while others may be manifested daily. Padre Pio, for example, exercised the gift if knowledge regularly. God revealed to him things about the people that came to him in confession, and he would confront them.
The authentic charismatic gifts have their origin in God, and would not be “simply a learned behavior” from a human point of view. That being said, it is necessary for people to learn to use their gifts, whatever they are. Most Catholics never unwrap the charismatic part of their baptism, and it remains in ignorance and unuse.
In my confirmation, the characterological gifts were emphasized:
Isa 11:2-3
2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him,
the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of counsel and might,
the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
3 And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD.
These are all gifts that must be “learned”. Of course one is to expect the grace of God at work in one to will and to do His good pleasure, but all these gifts are such that we grow into them and cathect them as we learn.
I think this is a very unknown and misunderstood point about praying in tongues.
1 Cor 14:13-14
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
Many will then say, what is the point of that kind of prayer? To that I would say, spiritual growth:
1 Cor 14:4
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself,
This is a form of prayer intended to build up the individual in their relationship with God. There is also something to be said for getting out of one’s head during prayer.
It strikes me that it is similar to a Benedictine or other lifestyle and form of worship. They are just as Catholic as Augustinian orders, but their way of living the devoted life varies.
Clearly he mentions both known and unknown languages.
I think this is the main reason the Charismatic gifts are not flourid at Confirmation as they were in the early Church. It is a lack of instruction, and the recipients not having that clue about how it works.
Yes, of course. But these instructions are for the gathering, so that everything may be done decently and in order. They don’t apply to private prayer. Besides, the use of a tongue in prayer is not the same as the variety used in “speaking” at the gathering.These are two differenty types.
This is a common misunderstanding about the use of tongues that has been perpetrated by the abuses that exist. The fact that one’s emotions are involved in worship does NOT equate to getting “caught up” by them. It is also false that emotions being involved in worship means it is “solely an emotional experience”. However, this is a good example of what I was saying about people being afraid to involve emotions in worship. These two elements, that one will be “caught up” by them, and that they will “solely” direct or hijack the worship are rather common among opponents of charismatic gifts.
I agree.
Yes, this is a common abuse that has been very detrimental. It is a clear departure from the Apostolic teaching, which places this gift at the bottom of the priority list.
Both things occur, but most charismatic prayer gatherings are separate from the Mass. Occasionally a priest will celebrate the liturgy with charismatics, and accomodate the exercise of spiritual gifts, but this is not the norm.
Did you pray for the power to interpret?
This is my experience. I have never seen a charismatic gift used in the mass. My group actually urges against the use of things such as tongues in mass, because the solemnity and custom of the liturgy is well defined for the sake of the congregation. i.e. There are specific places where silence is expected. Charismatic gifts are never to be used in a setting where they are not welcome or where they will cause division and conflict. As these contradict the intention of the Holy Spirit in giving us such gifts. It is abundantly clear that they are solely for building up the Church and the faith of the faithful, both individually and communally.
Well, you need permission from the local bishop to incorporate things like tongues into the Mass. I’ve been to Mass where this permission has been given and it’s done, and I think it is done appropriately. In fact, St. Paul’s discussion on charisms in 1 Corinthians is actually part of a larger section on the liturgy, and he is encouraging the use of the charismatic gifts at Mass. But currently, this is not yet been incorporated on a large scale back into the Mass.
The Holy Spirit is a perfect gentleman. He does not force anything on anyone … or give a gift if he is not first invited by a person that is willing … and has an open heart.I’m not all together grasping this. Why isn’t the Holy Spirit working through ALL the other Christians in this very way then? Doesn’t this make you wonder?
Can you prove this simply isn’t a learned behavior? I’ll admit I have viewed this only on the surface. But these questions come immediately to mind.
Peace
Yes, it is a learned behavior… but all of the gifts of the Spirit require a learning process …I’m not all together grasping this. Why isn’t the Holy Spirit working through ALL the other Christians in this very way then? Doesn’t this make you wonder?
Can you prove this simply isn’t a learned behavior? I’ll admit I have viewed this only on the surface. But these questions come immediately to mind.
Peace
This is called “resting in the Spirit” or “slain in the Spirit.” Basically, according to charismatics, your boyfriend was simply overcome with the presence of God.
I wouldn’t say that it is a learned behavior. Certainly there is a maturing and growth in the gifts as we make use of them. But to say that you “learn” them is incorrect terminology. The gifts are imparted as the Spirit wills. Our job is to accept what God gives us and to use it for is glory.
This condition is not “unconscious”,as people in this state are quite conscious, it is just that the power of God’s presence is so overwhelming that they cannot stand up. Their focus is so intensely on the presence of God that they are not aware of their physical sense. The Children of Fatima experienced a similar trancelike state, where they fell upon their knees on sharp rocks, but never felt any pain during their prayers.
I am very sorry this happened to you. Not only is it misinformation, but I think it is abusive and judgemental.
You description sounds very much like how Paul describes the Corinthian Church. Very rich in charismatic gifts, and very poor in maturity.
This is one of the abuses of the gifts that has occured because non-Catholic ecclesial communities don’t have authority over them restrainng inappropriate behavior. These gifts need to be used properly, in the right context and for the functions God created them. When they are not, we see chaos.
You can always ask them to pray in English. If a person is unwilling to do this, I would not allow them to pray over you.
This just seems bizarre to me.
I recommend that you be just as blunt as you are here.
It should, but it is given to the most immature believers, to help them grow in grace, and that is why we see a lack of maturity sometimes.
Catholics are sealed in the HS at baptism. Some grow in grace, some do not.
Yes, it is very sad. It certainly does not help anyone grow in grace,a nd only encourages people who think erroneously to continue to have wrong ideas like "you can’t speak in tongues = you are not pleasing to God’.
