Speaking in tongues?

[bluelake]

Yes, it is a learned behavior… but all of the gifts of the Spirit require a learning process …

There are some very good books on the subject. “They Speak With Other Tongues” is a good one … I read it a long time ago … It gave me my first insight into what ‘tongues’ was about.
Lots of Catholic Charismatics have and exercise the gift … so I am sure that there are publications from the Catholic perspective.

Speaking in tongues is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
1Cor 12:29-30 tells us not all have the same gifts of the Holy Spirit.
1Cor.12 and 14 tell us about the gifts.
You may want to read this if your interested.
Some churches put more importance on this one gift than others.
Oneness go as far as to say, ‘you must speak in tongues to be saved.’
no one is saved by works. we are saved by God’s grace.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[bluelake]

Related to the Charismatic movement would be Healing by laying hands on someone. We had a service in our Catholic Church with someone who does do that, Catholic of course, I probably don’t need to mention a name. And then, at the end of the service, it was finished with a ‘healing’ service and people would kneel before the alter and hands were laid on the people by this man who seems totally in accord with the Church. When people surrounded the altar, kneeling and leaning on the rail, the Church had people standing behind who would “catch” the people, should they fall back as a safety precaution. I was actually called into help in this and yes, people would fall back as if struck by a bolt of lightning though of course, that is only to describe what happened and not really like getting hit by a bolt of lightning. Furthermore, there is ‘something’ our Church offers in one program on Tues. night and sometimes people do project some utterances but really it is only a few syllables or words so this to me, is not convincing. I have been to an Ecumenical Service likewise where this same phenomenon occurred.

This sounds like a ‘Benny Hinn’ service.
The service is very entertaining. But, who is there to give honor and worship to the Lord?
They are seeking the gifts.
The Bible does not teach seeking.
Falling backwards? What scripture??

bluelake

 

[bluelake]

This is called “resting in the Spirit” or “slain in the Spirit.” Basically, according to charismatics, your boyfriend was simply overcome with the presence of God.

And in fact, it had nothing to do with the priest speaking in tongues, but instead was your boyfriend’s physical response to an encounter with God.

Resting in the Spirit? Where does the Lord teach this in the Bible?
Slain in the Spirit isn’t there either.
We are justified by faith. Saved by grace, Rom.5:1-5, Eph.2:8-9
God does not show favoritism. Rom. 2:11

God bless,
bluelake

 

[bluelake]

I don’t know why some Lutherans and Catholic want to be wannabe Pentecostals or Baptist when they both have the rich traditional liturgy and doctrine.

Curiosty, maybe. Everyone would show interest in the gift of tongues,
that is natural. However, we must be careful about the sin of pride.
Christians do not have to perform in any manner to be saved. We are save by grace.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[bluelake]

The Holy Spirit is a perfect gentleman. He does not force anything on anyone … or give a gift if he is not first invited by a person that is willing … and has an open heart.

Jesus said … Wait until I send the Holy Spirit …who will give you power. 500 people heard him … but there were only 120 people still waiting on Pentecost. Jesus invited/ instructed “all the other Christians” as you mention above … but for whatever reason … they rejected his offer. Willing obedience, trust and expectation were the key then … as well as now.

Paul the Apostle explained that the gifts are there …but they must be sought after … there is an element of faith required in order to activate and practice the gifts … and if/ when they are allowed to wane they must be ‘stirred up’ … as he reminded Timothy.

None of it is automatic. It must be acquired and practiced … Same as playing the Saxophone.

I have, and practice regularly, the gift of tongues and healing … among others.

The first thing that drew me to become proficient … was a healthy curiosity. The secont thing … and this was hard to learn for me … was to not doubt.

The more I practice these … the more faith and understanding I receive. There are places and people where the healing, for instance, does not happen. It is usually because of a lack of understanding of how to receive.

People dont use or express the various gifts for different reasons. For instance … In some places it is just not done that way … and people that are curious are told to stop asking … in some cases they are asked to stop talking about it or leave ( ‘the traditions of men make void the power of God’) … in others there is a lack of understanding of how to receive and actively practice the gifts.

The Bible tells us in Acts 2:1-13, (the Holy Spirit comes at pentecost.)
They were utterly amazed, they heard people speaking in known languages, not
glossolalia ,which is heard in the churches today.
Read all about in the book of Acts, chapter two

God bless,
bluelake

 

[bluelake]

What does it mean when people say they speak in tongues? I’m referring to non-Catholics, particularly protestants of the evangelical type, like those in megachurches. I’m intrigued at these claims. As for as I know, I think this claim has something to do with them believing in baptism by the Holy Spirit, etc. Are they actually able to speak multiple languages without having to learn them? Did they just wake up one morning only to find out that they can speak the world’s languages, even those long dead? Or are these people lying (or insane, depending on how you look at it)?

I have no doubt that this is indeed possible, like for the apostles during Pentecost. It just intrigues me how so many Christians boast of this “ability”. I seriously doubt if they’re genuine haha )

I have yet to hear that anyone has spoken in known languages.
I speak another language, I could very easily go to the altar and speak this tongue because it is not known everywhere. like French, German and Spanish. But of course this would be a sin, I would not do this. ever.

bluelake

 

[guanophore]

This sounds like a 'Benny Hinn' service.

The service is very entertaining. But, who is there to give honor and worship to the Lord?
They are seeking the gifts.
The Bible does not teach seeking.

It does teach seeking, but with a different attitude. Love is the more excellent way, but if a person is seeking gifts for themselves, rather than to serve God and His One Body, the Church, then it is out of order.

1 Cor 12:30-31
31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.,

1 Cor 14:39-40
39 So, my brethren, **earnestly desire **to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; 40 but all things should be done decently and in order.

1 Cor 14:1
4:1 Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

**

bluelake:
Falling backwards? What scripture??

bluelake**

The falling phenomenon comes from being overpowered by the presence of God.

John 18:5-7
6 When he said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

It is not voluntary, but one is more often likely to experience if they open to it.

 

[guanophore]

Resting in the Spirit? Where does the Lord teach this in the Bible?

It is right next to the table of contents, the word “Trinity” and the definition of the hypostatic union.

Slain in the Spirit isn’t there either.

When a person is overcome by the power of God,they may fall to the ground. They don’t call it “slain”, though a person may appear dead.

Matt 28:1-4
2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone, and sat upon it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow. 4 And for fear of him the** guards trembled and became like dead men.**

We are justified by faith. Saved by grace, Rom.5:1-5, Eph.2:8-9 God does not show favoritism. Rom. 2:11

God bless,
bluelake

He will save anyone, no matter their status in life, but those who seek His favor are more likely to find it. Paul instructs us to seek Him, and to be open to His gifts. Jesus teaches that the HS will be given to those who persistently ask.

Matt 7:11
11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Acts 5:31-32
32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."

Those who obey Him will experience the work of the HS more strongly.

 

[guanophore]

Curiosty, maybe. Everyone would show interest in the gift of tongues, that is natural. However, we must be careful about the sin of pride.
Christians do not have to perform in any manner to be saved. We are save by grace.

God bless,
bluelake

Yes, I think this attitude comes out of a faulty theology. These persons correctly believe that one must be “baptized in the Holy Spirit” to be saved, but they erroneously equate this with the “evidence” of speaking in tongues.

This is one of the heresies that come from the root heresy of “sola Scriptura”. They look into the Bible, and see that all who received the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues, and being separated from Sacred Tradition, erroneously believe that this is the “only way” to tell that a person has received the gift of the HS.

The Bible tells us in Acts 2:1-13, (the Holy Spirit comes at pentecost.)
They were utterly amazed, they heard people speaking in known languages, not
glossolalia ,which is heard in the churches today.
Read all about in the book of Acts, chapter two

God bless,
bluelake

This is only one of a variety of tongues,but I agree with you that much of what is heard in churches today is not reflective of glorifying God.

I have yet to hear that anyone has spoken in known languages.
I speak another language, I could very easily go to the altar and speak this tongue because it is not known everywhere. like French, German and Spanish. But of course this would be a sin, I would not do this. ever.

bluelake

There are documented cases of this happening, mostly with missionaries, but it is a mistake to assume that a tongue that is unknown to the modern world is necessarily invalid. Many spoken languages of the past are no longer used, and in any case, we would not recoginize the “tongues of angels” as a common language of man.

 

[bluelake]

It does teach seeking, but with a different attitude. Love is the more excellent way, but if a person is seeking gifts for themselves, rather than to serve God and His One Body, the Church, then it is out of order.

1 Cor 12:30-31
31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.,

1 Cor 14:39-40
39 So, my brethren, **earnestly desire **to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; 40 but all things should be done decently and in order.

1 Cor 14:1
4:1 Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

**

The falling phenomenon comes from being overpowered by the presence of God.

John 18:5-7
6 When he said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

It is not voluntary, but one is more often likely to experience if they open to it.**

Yes, the men were overcome by the presense of God in this passage.
Did the soldiers have someone behind them to catch them?

I agree with Love, in this conext, We are commanded by Christ to love one another.
Mt.22:34-39 We may not always agree on certain points of doctrine, the reason being some are further ahead in God’s word than others.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[1voice]

I have no doubt that this is indeed possible, like for the apostles during Pentecost. It just intrigues me how so many Christians boast of this “ability”. I seriously doubt if they’re genuine haha )

Paul spoke in tongues. He said that he felt that he used the gift more often than anyone that he knew. He recommended that everyone seek this gift … and to use it. He said it was a very useful tool in his tool bag. Apparently speaking in tongues was a common occurrence in the church because Paul took the time to establish rules about how it was best to practice the gift. Jesus said … you have not … because you ask not. There are a lot of skeptics … There are a lot of people that mock and ridicule because they really dont care to understand … I say … do as you wish. Your loss.

 

[guanophore]

 Yes, the men were overcome by the presense of God in this passage.

Did the soldiers have someone behind them to catch them?

Yes, I think they were lackeys of the Pharisees.

I agree with Love, in this conext, We are commanded by Christ to love one another.
Mt.22:34-39 We may not always agree on certain points of doctrine, the reason being some are further ahead in God’s word than others.

God bless,
bluelake

I think it is the pursuit of love as “the still more excellent way” that caused the gifts to fall into disuse.

 

[sedonaman]

What happened at Pentecost was that persons from various geographical areas were able to understand in their own language the words that were spoken in (probably) Aramaic (or perhaps Greek).

Speaking in tongues was rarely reported in Christendom from A.D. 100 to 1800.

The modern Pentecostalism movement started in 1900. “Speaking in tongues” started on January 1, 1901, when a student of Rev. Charles Parham’s Bible school in Kansas, Agnes Ozman, prayed earnestly that she would receive the gift, and sure enough, her prayer was answered. She started “speaking in tongues.” Soon the whole school was doing it, and it spread from there.

Since no one heard any early Christians “speaking in tongues,” no one knows how it sounded. All we know is how it sounds now, based on Agnes Oznan’s example. I used to belong to a Catholic charismatic prayer group, and it’s my opinion that everyone copies from everyone else. I think “speaking in tongues” is merely uttering random syllables. It has been studied by professional linguists, and no lanuages have ever been identified.

But the definition of prayer is the lifting of the heart and mind to God. People who “speak in tongues” certainly do that!

That’s my :twocents:

I’ve never heard it but have been told it is like clicking and clacking of the tongue, hence, “speaking in tongues.” But what is its purpose if no one around you can understand it? Sounds like a scam to get attention; but once they have your attention, what do they do with it if you can’t understand them?

My :twocents:

 

[vardaquinn]

I’ve never heard it but have been told it is like clicking and clacking of the tongue, hence, “speaking in tongues.” But what is its purpose if no one around you can understand it? Sounds like a scam to get attention; but once they have your attention, what do they do with it if you can’t understand them?

My :twocents:

It’s not clicking and clacking the tongue, per se, but speaking in a language you don’t know through the power of God the Holy Spirit. That may be involved, depending on the language. It’s purpose is as a form of prayer, to extol and adore and praise God through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is literally “praying in the Spirit”. St. Paul says this edifies the individual, thereby building up the temple of God within you. There is another form of tongues that is meant for instruction, in which God either gives an interpretation, or the language is already known by the hearers.

 

[guanophore]

I’ve never heard it but have been told it is like clicking and clacking of the tongue, hence, “speaking in tongues.” But what is its purpose if no one around you can understand it? Sounds like a scam to get attention; but once they have your attention, what do they do with it if you can’t understand them?

My :twocents:

The tongues from the Holy Spirit are real languages, not just noises.

1 Cor 13:1-2
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal…

1 Cor 14:3-4
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself…

One purpose is to build up the person, so they can better serve God.

1 Cor 14:2
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit

 

[sedonaman]

It’s not clicking and clacking the tongue, per se, but speaking in a language you don’t know through the power of God the Holy Spirit.

I could see that, but there have to be people around who speak that language. An earlier poster said it is not any known language.

That may be involved, depending on the language. It’s purpose is as a form of prayer, to extol and adore and praise God through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is literally “praying in the Spirit”. St. Paul says this edifies the individual, thereby building up the temple of God within you.

And an non-understandable “language” is needed for this?

There is another form of tongues that is meant for instruction, in which God either gives an interpretation, or the language is already known by the hearers.

I think this is what guanophore was talking about in post 115, but still there have to be others around who understand it.

So, what’s its purpose? This sounds too much like the Muslim claim that the only true Koran is in Arabic.

 

[guanophore]

I could see that, but there have to be people around who speak that language. An earlier poster said it is not any known language.

This is true about a specific form of tongues that is used in a prayer meeting where others are present, to address the group.

1 Cor 14:6-13

6 Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how shall I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will any one know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves; if you in a tongue utter speech that is not intelligible, how will any one know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning; 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12 So with yourselves; since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. 13 Therefore, he who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.

v22
…tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

1 Cor 14:26-28

26 What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.

There is a form of tongues that should be used in the meeting only if it is interpreted. If there is no one to interpret, then it should be kept private. This is an Apostolic ruling that is unfortunately ignored in the ecclesial communities of our separated brethren, the fruit of which is exactly what the Apostle states - “will they not think you are mad”? And indeed, that is what is thought.

It is not the type that was used at Pentecost, as this was the Apostles speaking in their own language, and others HEARING in their own.

And an non-understandable “language” is needed for this?

Of course not! One can extol God in a variety of ways, in their own language, song, art, dance, etc. Ideally our lives should extol God.

But this is a specific form of prayer that disconnects the mind, so that a person can focus on the Spirit.

1 Cor 14:13-15
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

There are many of us whose minds are much too busy, and we struggle achieving the state of contempletive prayer that we ought. In such cases, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, and we are able to use tongues to disengage our busy minds, and allow the mind to be “unfruituful” while the Spirit prays.

I think this is what guanophore was talking about in post 115, but still there have to be others around who understand it.

Yes, when it is used in the congregation it is not to be used without interpretation. Private prayer in tongues can be used at all times. I recommend reading I Cor. 12-14, these chapters will answer your questions.

So, what’s its purpose?

One is to extol God, as we see in Acts. Another is to instruct, as noted above, and one is to build up the individual in their prayer life, so that they can better serve God and the Body of Christ.

1 Cor 14:1-5
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, he who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.

 

[vardaquinn]

I could see that, but there have to be people around who speak that language.

Why?

And an non-understandable “language” is needed for this?

Apparently. Hey, the Holy Spirit made it up not me.

I think this is what guanophore was talking about in post 115, but still there have to be others around who understand it

I don’t see why. 1 Cor 14:13-15
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

See Acts 19. It’s not mentioned that anyone around understood what they were saying.

 

[sedonaman]

This is true about a specific form of tongues that is used in a prayer meeting where others are present, to address the group.

1 Cor 14:6-13

6 Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, …

I don’t buy any of this. Just ask yourself what theological purpose it serves. “Speaking in tongues” probably had a different meaning in Biblical times. Nothing unifies like language, and the early Church was obviously striving for unity at a most crucial time, as it is even today. Introducing an unknown language would only serve to divide. It could even be a redundant phrase, sorta like saying, “walking with feet.” How else would you walk? In addition, I suspect this is nothing more than an attempt to gain some prestige through membership in an exclusive club by excluding non-“speakers-in-tongues”.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t buy any of this.

That is ok, since it is not for sale.

Just ask yourself what theological purpose it serves.

I have done this. I have found all my answers in Scripture, the Catechism, the documents of Vatican II and statements from the Popes and the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith.

“Speaking in tongues” probably had a different meaning in Biblical times.

This is a false assumption. Further, you will find that this position contradicts what the Church teaches. It is part of the Doctrine of the Faith, that is why you will find no Magesterial document that teaches otherwise.

Nothing unifies like language, and the early Church was obviously striving for unity at a most crucial time, as it is even today. Introducing an unknown language would only serve to divide.

You have misunderstood the gift of the HolySpirit. People dont’ “introduce an unknown language”. God does this. Nothing the Holy Spirit does is divisive.

It could even be a redundant phrase, sorta like saying, “walking with feet.” How else would you walk? In addition, I suspect this is nothing more than an attempt to gain some prestige through membership in an exclusive club by excluding non-“speakers-in-tongues”.

I agree, we are all to walk by the Spirit,and to pray in the Spirit without ceasing. Unfortunately, there are many people who do not do this, or don’t know how to do this. I am glad you are not in need of extra help to have a strong spiritual walk, but please do not denigrate your brothers and sisters who need more of God’s grace to do this than you do.

In some circles, you are right, there is an exclusivity practiced. This is not Catholic, and is an abuse of God’s gifts. It is seen among our separated brethren, especially those who have rejected the Teaching of the Magesterium on how these gifts are to be used.