Speaking In Tongues

[ASimpleSinner]

Growing up, I was taught that the when the Apostles recieved the gift of speaking in tongues, it empowered them to speak and be understood in other languages. This made sense to me as it enabled them to “go forth therefore and teach all nations”. The implication was, wherever they went, they could be understood even if they did not speak the local language.

This idea seems rather different from the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic notion of tongues that generally happens to occur *en mass *at prayer services - with multiple people uttering sounds they do not understand and others fail to understand.

I even came accross this Protestant website: gotquestions.org/praying-in-tongues.html which takes a rather dim view of the Pentecostal style of interpretation…

I am just not certain how this modern practice can be reconciled with tradional Catholic understanding of Scriptural references to speaking in tongues. The two notions are very different.

 

[Catholig]

Growing up, I was taught that the when the Apostles recieved the gift of speaking in tongues, it empowered them to speak and be understood in other languages. This made sense to me as it enabled them to “go forth therefore and teach all nations”. The implication was, wherever they went, they could be understood even if they did not speak the local language.

This idea seems rather different from the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic notion of tongues that generally happens to occur *en mass *at prayer services - with multiple people uttering sounds they do not understand and others fail to understand.

I even came accross this Protestant website: gotquestions.org/praying-in-tongues.html which takes a rather dim view of the Pentecostal style of interpretation…

I am just not certain how this modern practice can be reconciled with tradional Catholic understanding of Scriptural references to speaking in tongues. The two notions are very different.

I think they justify it by saying that these are angelic tongues (something that is referenced to in the Bible) but ultimately I don’t buy it. I don’t think it can be reconciled w/ the Church.

Catholig

 

[vern_humphrey]

I am just not certain how this modern practice can be reconciled with tradional Catholic understanding of Scriptural references to speaking in tongues. The two notions are very different.

Actually, it comes from Saint Paul, who discusses it at some length.

1 Corinthians 14, 1-19

1 Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy.
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.
3 On the other hand, one who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, 3 encouragement, and solace.
4 Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church.
5 Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be built up.
6 Now, brothers, if I should come to you speaking in tongues, what good will I do you if I do not speak to you by way of revelation, or knowledge, or prophecy, or instruction?
7 Likewise, if inanimate things that produce sound, such as flute or harp, do not give out the tones distinctly, how will what is being played on flute or harp be recognized?
8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle?
9 Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air.
10 It happens that there are many different languages in the world, and none is meaningless;
11 but if I do not know the meaning of a language, I shall be a foreigner to one who speaks it, and one who speaks it a foreigner to me.
12 So with yourselves: since you strive eagerly for spirits, seek to have an abundance of them for building up the church.
13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray to be able to interpret.
14 (For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit is at prayer but my mind is unproductive.
15 So what is to be done? I will pray with the spirit, but I will also pray with the mind. I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will also sing praise with the mind.
16 Otherwise, if you pronounce a blessing (with) the spirit, how shall one who holds the place of the uninstructed say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?
17 For you may be giving thanks very well, but the other is not built up.
18 I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you,
19 but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Note verse 18, “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.”

 

[jabelltulsa]

I think they justify it by saying that these are angelic tongues (something that is referenced to in the Bible) but ultimately I don’t buy it. I don’t think it can be reconciled w/ the Church.

Catholig

I have never heard in person the supposed speaking in tongues, but I have heard recordings and seen videos.

I love learning about God, and I am always anxious to fill my mind up with His Teachings. Why can I not understand them if they are truly speaking in tongues as they did on Pentecost? Am I not a part of the nations that they are supposed to be teaching?

It seems, to me, to be based on suggestion, rather than holiness. Also, I hear the same noises coming out of their mouths over and over. Angelic tongues would seem to be a more complex language, rather than just mumbo jumbo.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I have never heard in person the supposed speaking in tongues, but I have heard recordings and seen videos.

I love learning about God, and I am always anxious to fill my mind up with His Teachings. Why can I not understand them if they are truly speaking in tongues as they did on Pentecost?

Because they are not speaking in tongues as they did at Pentecost. It’s an entirely different matter. When a person is moved to speak in tongues, he or she often doesn’t know what he said – someone else has to interpret it.

It is this kind of speaking in tongues that Paul discusses in First Corinthians, Chapter 14 – where an interpreter is needed.

I don’t understand it, but it does have a scriptural basis.

It seems, to me, to be based on suggestion, rather than holiness. Also, I hear the same noises coming out of their mouths over and over. Angelic tongues would seem to be a more complex language, rather than just mumbo jumbo.

As I said, I don’t understand it – any more than I understand the Trinity – but it clearly has a scriptural basis and was practiced in the early Church.

 

[BigFeet]

Here are a couple of explanations from EWTN’s Fr. Echert:

Pentecostalism
Question from on 05-20-2007:
What scriptures do the Pentecostals focus on that makes them believe so firmly in the gifts of the Holy Spirit being able to be given to them now? Why do they believe so strongly in the idea of being able to Speak in Tongues as being the first sign of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? And why do they not take the scriptures literally when it says that the bread and wine are actually changed into body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ when they take so many of the other parts of the Bible that way.

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 05-26-2007:
I cannot answer with certainty but I suspect that they would cite references in certain Pauline Epistles (especially 1 Corinthians and Galatians) as well as some references in the Acts of the Apostles. In reality, Saint Paul was harsh upon those who put inappropriate attention upon charismatic gifts of the Spirit, which were intended to confirm the authenticity of the Christian religion and strengthen particular Christian communities. Instead, many Christians who possessed such gifts became proud and viewed these as personal signs of holiness, which is not necessarily the case. Testimony from early Church writings reveals that the charismatic gifts subsided dramatically following the Apostolic period, for they had served their purpose and were easily abused. Pentecostals and others who fail to accept the teaching of our Lord on the reality of the Body and Blood of the Holy Eucharist do so because they are not in communion with the Church.
Thanks, Terry

Father Echert

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=503972&Forums=0&Experts=29&Days=2007&Author=&Keyword=tongues&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=1&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

Speaking and Praying in tongues.
Question from on 05-02-2007:
Sir, Iwant to know whether Catholics believe in speaking and praying in tongues?
Why is it not thought in Catholic churches, since it is a from the Holy Spirit?

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 05-13-2007:
As recorded in the Acts of the Apostles and referred to in some Epistles, manifestations of the Holy Spirit abounded in the early Church, to include tongues and prophecies. Early writings reveal, however, that the vast number of miracles and charismatic gifts from the Holy Spirit substantially subsided, following the Apostolic period of the Church. Such miracles and signs served a purpose in that first generation, to bring the Gospel to the ends of the earth against all opposition. But they also presented a danger, as revealed by Pauline writings (see 1 Corinthians especially), in that the faithful often attached too much significance to these, and lost sight of their purpose. There are elements within the Catholic Church are regard themselves as charismatic, though so far as I know, there is no official approbation of any particular group or movement.
Thanks, Anthony

Father Echert

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=502162&Forums=0&Experts=29&Days=2007&Author=&Keyword=tongues&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=2&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

Fr. John Echert, S.S.L.
Father Echert is a priest of the Archdiocese of St. Paul-Minneapolis, ordained in 1987. He is a member of the faculty of The Saint Paul Seminary in Minnesota and teaches Sacred Scripture. He is also an adjunt faculty member of the University of St. Thomas. Father Echert has the Licentiate in Sacred Scripture (S.S.L.) degree from the Pontifical Biblical Institute, Rome with additional graduate studies at the Ecole Biblique, Jerusalem. He is also a military chaplain in the U.S. Air Force Reserve.

Father Echert writes a column on the monthly readings of the Mass for “The Catholic Servant,” a monthly publication for Evangelization, Catechesis and Apologetics available on the internet at www.catholicservant.org .

 

[jabelltulsa]

Because they are not speaking in tongues as they did at Pentecost. It’s an entirely different matter. When a person is moved to speak in tongues, he or she often doesn’t know what he said – someone else has to interpret it.

It is this kind of speaking in tongues that Paul discusses in First Corinthians, Chapter 14 – where an interpreter is needed.

I don’t understand it, but it does have a scriptural basis.

As I said, I don’t understand it – any more than I understand the Trinity – but it clearly has a scriptural basis and was practiced in the early Church.

Thank you for your response. You have lead me to reanalyze this.

Is it common practice for those who hear someone speak in tongues to contemplate the spoken word in tongues and the meaning?

If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

Also, Vern, thank you again for pointing this out. In this reexamination of the Sacred Scripture, I have found another of my favorite passages:

In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults

 

[thogg85]

. It seems, to me, to be based on suggestion, rather than holiness. Also, I hear the same noises coming out of their mouths over and over. Angelic tongues would seem to be a more complex language, rather than just mumbo jumbo.

I have a prayer language and it does sound complex as does my husband and neither of ours sounds the same to our ears. Interesting thought… you refer to the same noises coming out of their mouths over and over and yet I bet you pray the rosary over and over. What is the difference? What if they are praying the same thing over and over? Yes, I believe some are not truely speaking in tongues because of peer pressure and some church teaching, but please don’t deny that it is real. I speak in tongues only when I lead worship. I don’t know what I am saying but I do know when I say the name of Jesus. Also, even though I don’t know exactly what I am speaking, my heart knows the general thought - praise. I have a story as well to share. A group of us were at a worship service. My friend was behind me singing loudly. When it was over, he remarked how during the whole worship he was singing in tongues and didn’t know what he was singing. I said, “I heard everything you sang and I understood everything you sang.” We pondered that one. I think Paul refers to the actual tongues being understood like I experienced with my friend and the angelic language which may be my prayer/worship language.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

There is a difference between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues. Speaking in tongues is done in public, it is speaking another language, and another person has to be able to interpret. This is what we see in the scene at Pentecost. Then, there is praying in tongues. This is where you let the Holy Spirit speak for you in a prayer language (unspeakable groanings). It is often done in private and is not something that is interpreted (except, I suppose, by God). Romans 8:26 says, " Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings." However, from what I have seen on TV, the praying in tongues of Pentecostals does not seem to be authentic-- more of a hysteria thing. The reason I feel this way is that praying in tongues is all about being docile to the Holy Spirit. It is about humility. The shrieking and pandemonium I have seen in some charismatic meetings is definitely NOT about humility and giving glory to God. Folks seem very intent on drawing attention to themselves and being condescending to others; they feel they are more holy because they have these “gifts”. I have also seen Catholic charismatics in action and with one particular group, my Bible study, I can honestly say that there is no shrieking, or crazy actions. Only a serene blending of voices in prayer, almost songlike, but the people praying are all doing so in their prayer language.

To those who say that all people who pray in tongues are frauds I would say you are painting with a pretty broad brush. However, I would agree that there are frauds out there. There is a discernable difference in humility, if you watch for that, you will likely know who is faking. We must test all things and hold on to what is good–NOT just assume it is all bad.

By the way, our beloved Pope John Paul II seemed very supportive of the Catholic Charismatic movement. I am, too, as long as they remain completely faithful to the Magisterium and do not go outside the norms for the Mass (I fear there have been some problems there).
Blessings, Prayer_Warrior

PS. I don’t see where the Church teaches against praying in tongues. Here is an excerpt from the CCC:
**Charisms

799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.253

801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds. "Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,"254 so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together "for the common good."255 **

 

[jabelltulsa]

you refer to the same noises coming out of their mouths over and over and yet I bet you pray the rosary over and over. What is the difference?

I’m not trying to be argumentative here, but the prayers in the rosary with the exception of the final part of the Hail Mary and the Apostle’s Creed are from Sacred Scripture. That is the difference. I understand that the practice of speaking in tongues is from Sacred Scripture, but the words in the rosary (save the parts mentioned earlier) are taken directly from Sacred Scripture word for word.

My point in responding to this post is that if one speaks in tongues, how do I know it is authentic? I fear that if one doesn’t have guidance and teaching from the Pillar of Truth (the One True Church), then they would be speaking not in tongues, but rather giving themselves over to emotional whim (not that it is bad to be emotional over our Lord ). Some churches ignore the teaching of Sacred Scripture outright, as far as I can tell. Here is how I come to this conclusion:

When protestant churches allow women to speak in tongues, isn’t this directly forbidden in Corinthians 14? How is it that someone can take the speaking in tongues part, but not the whole passage?

Praying the rosary has done more for my life than I can tell you here in this forum, by the way.

Maybe I don’t get much out of speaking in tongues, because I am a believer already. Paul says that this is for non-believers.

 

[Pani_Rose]

You might find these teachings beneficial to your questions. There are all from a Catholic perspective. The link is at the bottom…

The Journey: The Gift of the Spirit

Table of Contents

http://ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/Van_Cleef/Gifts/dove1.gif
by Bob Van Cleef

Session One:
Gifts of the Spirit Manifestations of the Holy Spirit The Gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 The Gifts of the Spirit in Isaiah 11:2 The Holy Spirit – God’s Gift (from the Catechism) Grace is the Foremost Gift of the Spirit (from the Catechism) Session Two: Different Kinds of Tongues (Part One) Tongues are a Foundation Upon Which the Spirit Builds Tongues are a Foundation for Growth in the Use of Spiritual Gifts Tongues are Not a Foundation for Judging Others God is Not the Author of Confusion Different Kinds of Tongues (Part Two) Praying in Tongues Diverse Tongues Growing in the Gift of Tongues Speaking in Tongues Singing in Tongues
ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/Van_Cleef/Gifts/

 

[thistle]

I have a prayer language and it does sound complex as does my husband and neither of ours sounds the same to our ears. Interesting thought… you refer to the same noises coming out of their mouths over and over and yet I bet you pray the rosary over and over. What is the difference? What if they are praying the same thing over and over? Yes, I believe some are not truely speaking in tongues because of peer pressure and some church teaching, but please don’t deny that it is real. I speak in tongues only when I lead worship. I don’t know what I am saying but I do know when I say the name of Jesus. Also, even though I don’t know exactly what I am speaking, my heart knows the general thought - praise. I have a story as well to share. A group of us were at a worship service. My friend was behind me singing loudly. When it was over, he remarked how during the whole worship he was singing in tongues and didn’t know what he was singing. I said, “I heard everything you sang and I understood everything you sang.” We pondered that one. I think Paul refers to the actual tongues being understood like I experienced with my friend and the angelic language which may be my prayer/worship language.

Speaking in tongues in the gibberish form is fake. In scripture when Paul talks about speaking in tongues and requiring an interpreter he is talking about foreign languages, not gibberish. For example if everyone in a group only knows only English but someone inspired starts talking in German then only another person who knew German could interpret. Also, if a person allegedly speaks in tongues that person cannot say they do. Only the Church can discern things like that, not the individual nor another layman hearing them.
Also making grunting noises when praying has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.

 

[puzzleannie]

This idea seems rather different from the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic notion of tongues that generally happens to occur *en mass *at prayer services - with multiple people uttering sounds they do not understand and others fail to understand.

I even came accross this Protestant website: gotquestions.org/praying-in-tongues.html which takes a rather dim view of the Pentecostal style of interpretation…
.

we want to be very careful to distinguish “Pentecostal”, the charismatic movement begun among fundamentalist Protestants early in the last century, from “Charistmatic”, the renewal begun in the 1960s among Catholic and mainstream Protestant circles. The former emphasizes tongues, extreme emotionalism, and the more bizarre aspects such as snake handling, and demands loud proclaiming in tongues as evidence of reception of the gifts by one and all, and links salvation to overt expression charismatic style. It has been soundly critiqued by orthodox Catholic charismatic writers such as Fr. George Montatgue and Killian McDonald.

The latter emphasizes baptism in the Spirit, a humble obedienct acceptance of the charismatic gifts for the purpose of building up the Church, as they are intended, focuses on all the gifts in their proper priority, manifestation and use as described by Paul in Corinthians. It places tongues in its place as the least of the gifts, and does not demand overt expression of the gifts as a sign or pre-requisite for obedience and receptivity to the action of the Holy Spirit. It also takes its proper place in the ecclesial system, and insists that those so gifted express and use the gifts as intended, in ecclesial service.

Please make clear what manifestation of modern charismatic expression this thread intends to discuss. It would also be well if participants with no direct knowledge of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal refrain from expressing criticism, especially that couched in derogatory and uncharitable terms.

BigFeet and PrayerWarrier have demonstrated the most helpful way to frame such answers. I would respectfully suggest that a thread on modern Pentecostalism under non-Catholic auspices (Assemblies of God etc.) be discussed in the non-Catholic religions forum, and that Catholic Charismatic Renewal and its expressions be discussed in the spirituality forum. In both places there have been valuable discussions in the past.

 

[Steve40]

When I speak in tougues now it is genrally by myself and quietly. It is allowing the Holy Spirit to pray through you and it is the inner gronings that St. Paul talks about in Romans.

Romans 8:23

“And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”

 

[colliric]

There is a difference between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues. Speaking in tongues is done in public, it is speaking another language, and another person has to be able to interpret. This is what we see in the scene at Pentecost. Then, there is praying in tongues. This is where you let the Holy Spirit speak for you in a prayer language (unspeakable groanings). It is often done in private and is not something that is interpreted (except, I suppose, by God). Romans 8:26 says, " Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings." However, from what I have seen on TV, the praying in tongues of Pentecostals does not seem to be authentic-- more of a hysteria thing. The reason I feel this way is that praying in tongues is all about being docile to the Holy Spirit. It is about humility. The shrieking and pandemonium I have seen in some charismatic meetings is definitely NOT about humility and giving glory to God. Folks seem very intent on drawing attention to themselves and being condescending to others; they feel they are more holy because they have these “gifts”. I have also seen Catholic charismatics in action and with one particular group, my Bible study, I can honestly say that there is no shrieking, or crazy actions. Only a serene blending of voices in prayer, almost songlike, but the people praying are all doing so in their prayer language.

To those who say that all people who pray in tongues are frauds I would say you are painting with a pretty broad brush. However, I would agree that there are frauds out there. There is a discernable difference in humility, if you watch for that, you will likely know who is faking. We must test all things and hold on to what is good–NOT just assume it is all bad.

By the way, our beloved Pope John Paul II seemed very supportive of the Catholic Charismatic movement. I am, too, as long as they remain completely faithful to the Magisterium and do not go outside the norms for the Mass (I fear there have been some problems there).
Blessings, Prayer_Warrior

PS. I don’t see where the Church teaches against praying in tongues. Here is an excerpt from the CCC:
**Charisms

799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.253

801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds. "Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,"254 so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together "for the common good."255 **

The Charismatic Renewal is where I’m doing my RCIA program, I believe they do not go against the magesterium at all. I think the only really questionable thing is the holding hands during the our father.

and i agree with you on the pentacostal practise of this. it goes too far too often. The CCR is alot more humble in the way that it does this practice, which makes sense because it’s Catholic.

 

[VociMike]

Actually, it comes from Saint Paul, who discusses it at some length.

1 Corinthians 14, 1-19

Note verse 18, “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.”

I was more struck by verse 19: “but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.”

 

[VociMike]

It seems, to me, to be based on suggestion, rather than holiness. Also, I hear the same noises coming out of their mouths over and over. Angelic tongues would seem to be a more complex language, rather than just mumbo jumbo.

In the past I have read studies by linguists who have analyzed recordings of people speaking (or praying) in tongues. Their conclusion is that the sounds do not have the structure or complexity of language.

 

[jabelltulsa]

In the past I have read studies by linguists who have analyzed recordings of people speaking (or praying) in tongues. Their conclusion is that the sounds do not have the structure or complexity of language.

That is kind of how, in an untrained sort of way, I came to that conclusion as well. For a language to be spoken, it would have to have some sort of formula. Even if it could not be understood without knowledge of the actual language itself, it would need to present some sort of structure.

If you come across any links for this, I would love to read them.

 

[VociMike]

That is kind of how, in an untrained sort of way, I came to that conclusion as well. For a language to be spoken, it would have to have some sort of formula. Even if it could not be understood without knowledge of the actual language itself, it would need to present some sort of structure.

If you come across any links for this, I would love to read them.

Try a Google search using terms like glossolalia linguistic

 

[thogg85]

Just a note, when I wrote earlier that usually I speak in tongues when I lead worship, I wanted to clarify that I step away from the microphone and let others continue so that I don’t disrupt the congregation. Often it is just after we sing and then comes a pastoral prayer or the instruments play softly while people pray - not loud - since most people in my church do not speak in tongues or have a prayer “language”. Most probably don’t know I do. We don’t make it an issue. On another note, someone earlier mentioned that there is no syntax or complexity to prayer languages. Who are we to know the mind of God in this. I beleive in mysteries of God and believe he knows what is in my heart as I pray.
I always find it interesting that those who not have this gift seem to have a superior or suspicious attitude to those of us who do and question our authenticity. I have the gift of administration and teaching and yet no one without those gifts ever questions my authenticity with these gifts. Why do you suppose this is?.