Speaking In Tongues

[FrancesDaphne]

…, I would agree that there are frauds out there. There is a discernable difference in humility, if you watch for that, you will likely know who is faking. We must test all things and hold on to what is good–NOT just assume it is all bad.

Frauds will definitely exist for as long as Humans exist!
I’d personally choose to place my trust in our Holy Fathers’ encouragements (quoted below) …
Tongues are definitely a Gift from God, for use at our own will - always for the purpose of sancitification (self & others).

I’d encourage all who seek to understand The Holy Spirit in its fullness (and the answers to OP’s question on why present day tongues seem different from the 1st whereby everyone could understand the message in their own lagnuage) – to seek out the Charismatic Movement at your local parish/archdiocese…
(that’s the reason the Charismatic Renewal was instituted with leaders chosen by the Church to guide us… make good use of this outlet to understand more)

By the way, our beloved Pope John Paul II seemed very supportive of the Catholic Charismatic movement. …

Encouraged by our Popes
Pope Paul VI, in 1975 said that “the Church lives by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit… He furnishes and directs her with various gifts, both hierarchical and charismatic… The Church and the world need more than ever that ‘the miracle of Pentecost’ should continue in history. Nothing is more necessary to this increasingly secularized world than the witness of this spiritual renewal that we see the Holy Spirit evoking…”. “How then could this spiritual renewal not be good fortune for the Church and for the world? It ought to rejuvenate the world, give it back a spirituality, a soul, a religious thought. It ought to reopen its closed lips to prayer and open its mouth to song, to joy, to hymns and to witnessing.” He ended with the proclamation: “Jesus is the Lord! Alleluia!”

Pope John Paul II at a special audience for Charismatic leaders at Vatican City in 1984 said: “The Church’s mission is to proclaim Christ to the world. And you share effectively in this mission… real openness to the Holy Spirit as it vivifies and guides the Church helps you to live in union with the Lord Jesus. It is your strength and your special treasure…”
At the 20th anniversary of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in 1987, the Holy Father said, “the vigour and fruitfulness of the Renewal certainty attests to the powerful presence of the Holy Spirit at work in the Church these years after Vatican II.”

 

[Palladio]

My experience of tongues is there are two types: speaking in tongues and praying in tongues. The first type is more rare and should be accompanied by interpretation. The second type, praying in tongues, is more common and is useful as an experience of “yielding” to the activity of the Spirit. That is why it is considered the “gateway to the charisms”.

The best Scriptural explanation for praying in tongues is the following:

(Rom 8:26-27) Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. [27] Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

For those of you contend that praying in tongues is phony or mere imitation, there is an interesting episode in the new biography of Mother Angelica where a priest prays for her to receive the “release of the Spirit” and she experiences nothing. However, later she is praying privately and she spontaneously starts praying in tongues. From that point onward, she experienced a tremendous intimacy with the Scriptures. The release or “baptism” in the Spirit was really foundational to her subsequent ministry.

I still fail to see how speaking or praying in tongues is anything today–today–different from some sort of delusion.

In seeing such a thing on television recently I thought: yes, self-delusion there, since speaking in tongue or in tongues has to mean something to somebody other than the speaker. Since it is otherwise incomprehensible, why would any Catholic wish to take it on the speaker’s word that he is really doing what we mean by speaking at all, esp. as St. Paul means that he speaks more languages than others, which is all tongue (e. g., French, langue, Italian, lingua) really means.

If gibberish is one kind of false prophesy, and nonsensical on the face of it, hasn’t Christ Himself already prepare us for it?

 

[longwayhome]

Palladio,

Unfortunately, your last post is not very clear. The phenomenon of tongues is well established in the Church, both theologically and experientially (although experience is always subject to discernment). If you refuse to examine the evidence, then there is not much room for discussion.

 

[Palladio]

Palladio,

Unfortunately, your last post is not very clear. The phenomenon of tongues is well established in the Church, both theologically and experientially (although experience is always subject to discernment). If you refuse to examine the evidence, then there is not much room for discussion.

I’m puzzled by your reply.

I am unaware that Paul or the apostles spoke in tongues in any sense but the normal one: they spoke languages other than their native language, through the Holy Spirit alone, without so to speak a Berlitz course. The word tongue is a synonym for language.

I am speaking of those who, today, claim ‘to speak in tongues.’ I have seen this on t. v. and at a Bible church: nobody but the speaker understands what the speaker is saying: that is not speaking, or speech.

To my ears, it is mumbo jumbo, hardly worthy of serious attention by Catholics.

If there is evidence for speaking in tongues where people understand the speech, I would love to see it.

Is my post clear now?

God bless you.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I’m puzzled by your reply.

I am unaware that Paul or the apostles spoke in tongues in any sense but the normal one: they spoke languages other than their native language, through the Holy Spirit alone, without so to speak a Berlitz course. The word tongue is a synonym for language.

I am speaking of those who, today, claim ‘to speak in tongues.’ I have seen this on t. v. and at a Bible church: nobody but the speaker understands what the speaker is saying: that is not speaking, or speech.

To my ears, it is mumbo jumbo, hardly worthy of serious attention by Catholics.

If there is evidence for speaking in tongues where people understand the speech, I would love to see it.

Is my post clear now?

God bless you.

St. Teresa of Avila, doctor of the Church, was a serious Catholic. She is known as the Doctor of Prayer. Here is a quote from her:

Our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand. I am writing about this favor so that if he grants it to you, you may give him such praise and know what is taking place . . . . It seems like gibberish, and certainly the experience is like that, for it is a joy so excessive that the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul to praise our Lord.

From Sixth Mansions, Chapter IV, No. 10, of The Interior Castle (as quoted in Catholic Book of Quotations, Our Sunday Visitor Publishing, 2004, p. 348).

I think you are mistaken about people claiming to speak in tongues. Most people do not claim to speak in tongues, but rather they claim they have received an entirely different gift- the gift of praying in tongues. As I said before, I would guess that many of the folks on TV have not authentically received this gift because they seem to glorify themselves and not God.

We are told in the Bible that the Holy Spirit will help us to pray and will ask for us with “unspeakable groanings”. Since it is in the Bible, and my beloved patron saint, the Doctor of Prayer, also received this gift, I feel I have every reason to take it seriously.

 

[Palladio]

St. Teresa of Avila, doctor of the Church, was a serious Catholic. She is known as the Doctor of Prayer. Here is a quote from her:

From Sixth Mansions, Chapter IV, No. 10, of The Interior Castle (as quoted in Catholic Book of Quotations, Our Sunday Visitor Publishing, 2004, p. 348).

I think you are mistaken about people claiming to speak in tongues. Most people do not claim to speak in tongues, but rather they claim they have received an entirely different gift- the gift of praying in tongues. As I said before, I would guess that many of the folks on TV have not authentically received this gift because they seem to glorify themselves and not God.

We are told in the Bible that the Holy Spirit will help us to pray and will ask for us with “unspeakable groanings”. Since it is in the Bible, and my beloved patron saint, the Doctor of Prayer, also received this gift, I feel I have every reason to take it seriously.

Thanks for your reply.

I see what you mean, but I am wondering what the RCC teaches, and I’ll look at the CCC.

I notice that St. Theresa speaks of a gift from our Lord, the NT of a call–in language I would like to know more about–from the Holy Spirit.

I’m not clear whether the one relates to the other.

God bless you.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I notice that St. Theresa speaks of a gift from our Lord, the NT of a call–in language I would like to know more about–from the Holy Spirit.

The Charismatic movement per se was launched at Duquesne University I think in the late 60s if I remember correctly. I think '67. Some priests were wondering about it and prayed about it one weekend. As a result they were given the gift of tongues.

JP2 encouraged people to seek the charisms and was very fond of the charismatic movement in the Catholic Church.

There are Life in the Spirit programs in most major cities. You can phone the diocese office and find out where they give one where you live. Usually it is a charismatic prayer group that gives the program and they meet regularly whether the program is on or not. Usually once a week.

 

[M_Richard]

Do priests have to recognize speaking in tongues, because it doesn’t seem well defined.

 

[DebChris]

Do priests have to recognize speaking in tongues, because it doesn’t seem well defined.

It is recognized by the magisterium. Every year there is a priest retreat at the Franciscan University in Steubenville where ordained priests experience the gift for the very first time.
When I first received the gift, my parish priest focused less on my ability to pray in tongues than he did on the visible change that took place in me. When first observed, as others have posted, it may seem like nothing more than mumble jumble.

 

[Palladio]

Do priests have to recognize speaking in tongues, because it doesn’t seem well defined.

It is perfectly clear, in Acts: all it means (quite a lot) is that the Apostles speak in languages other than their native tongues (=languages) which Jews from foreign countries understand, for those languages are their very own, too: the Word is spread immediately and clearly, that is, because the Apostles speak with anybody they please around them thanks to the Holy Spirit.

If you or I were so blessed, you, for one, could speak Serbo-Croatian to Serbo-Croations never having learned a word of it on your own before!

As for praying in tongues… Something else, but what I don’t know. That is not at all clear to me. Haven’t found it in the CCC.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m puzzled by your reply.

I am unaware that Paul or the apostles spoke in tongues in any sense but the normal one: they spoke languages other than their native language, through the Holy Spirit alone, without so to speak a Berlitz course. The word tongue is a synonym for language.

Read what Paul says – he makes it clear that the person speaking in tongues does not understand what he says, and must have a translator. He also points out that he, himself, from time to time speaks in tongues in this manner.

This is quite different from what happened at Pentecost.

 

[Palladio]

Read what Paul says – he makes it clear that the person speaking in tongues does not understand what he says, and must have a translator. He also points out that he, himself, from time to time speaks in tongues in this manner.

This is quite different from what happened at Pentecost.

Happy to, but that does not seem to address ‘praying in tongues.’

Now, before I go, unless I hear from everybody otherwise in the next second that speaking in tongues means, of course, speaking a foreign language I will assume that that is its primary meaning.

God bless.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Happy to, but that does not seem to address ‘praying in tongues.’

Now, before I go, unless I hear from everybody otherwise in the next second that speaking in tongues means, of course, speaking a foreign language I will assume that that is its primary meaning.

God bless.

It wasn’t meant to address praying in tongues (if that is a separate issue.) It was meant to address speaking in tongues as Paul practiced it.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Read what Paul says – he makes it clear that the person speaking in tongues does not understand what he says, and must have a translator. He also points out that he, himself, from time to time speaks in tongues in this manner.

This is quite different from what happened at Pentecost.

I’ve heard and read a lot about people speaking in tongues, but haven’t heard of anyone translating. So, is there anyone here who translates? If no one can translate how does one know they are experiencing a gift of the Spirit or not?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’ve heard and read a lot about people speaking in tongues, but haven’t heard of anyone translating. So, is there anyone here who translates? If no one can translate how does one know they are experiencing a gift of the Spirit or not?

Beats me. I’ve never seen it done. But it is attested in Scripture.

 

[dparker]

I’m rather new here and I have no idea if it is appropriate or welcome to even post in this section since I am not Catholic, but please allow me a comment. If my post is inappropriate, perhaps a moderator can delete it.

As a life long Protestant, I grew up in a church that did not believe in the Gifts of the Spirit. I received much disinformation on the subject. But, when I was a teenager, I became friends with a group that included a Charismatic Catholic, an Assembly of God girl, and several others. They all gathered around me and prayed for me to receive this “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”. I was ignorant and untaught, but had an open spirit for whatever God wanted to give me.

That was ~35 years ago, but I still can’t really describe what happened, other than an incredible outpouring of love and power. Yes I started to pray in tongues…in fact, I didn’t want to stop. For the first time in my life, I felt like I was praying a perfect prayer. The Spirit gives utterence and directs the language, but you are still in full control of your actions. If I had chosen not to speak, I could have stopped. That is the prayer language that Paul speaks of in Corinthians. I have continued to pray in tongues up to this day. It is not “esctatic” or “emotional”. One can pray equally well in any emotional state.

*"One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself… * 1 Cor 14:4

*What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. * 1 Cor 14:15

But the Gift of Tongues to the church must be interpeted to provide “revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching” 1 Cor 14:6

• If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret* 1 Cor 14:27

These are not prayers to God…they are messages from God to His church. Without interpretation they are worthless. I have been in many services where a message in tongues is brought and another then interpets. It is a powerful window into the heart and mind of God, and is clearly taught and permitted by Paul.

Getting beyond the sometimes emotional element of Pentecostal worship, this is the elemental teaching based on scripture. I have witnessed much the same thing at Charismatic Masses, so I assume these truths reach beyond church name or classification.

Again, I appologize if my remarks are inappropriate, but as I’ve read this thread I have read many of the same misunderstandings about these matters as I heard at the Protestant church of my youth.

 

[guanophore]

Is it common practice for those who hear someone speak in tongues to contemplate the spoken word in tongues and the meaning?

I think it depends upon how one is taught. If one was trained to understand that each person can have a private prayer language in which he utters mysteries in the spirit, then one does not necesarily expect an interpretation. For some of us, to have the Spirit pray through us while leaving the mind unfruitful is a great relief and blessing from an overly busy mind. It allows one to just be in the presence of God, rather than thinking too much.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not trying to be argumentative here, but the prayers in the rosary with the exception of the final part of the Hail Mary and the Apostle’s Creed are from Sacred Scripture. That is the difference. I understand that the practice of speaking in tongues is from Sacred Scripture, but the words in the rosary (save the parts mentioned earlier) are taken directly from Sacred Scripture word for word.

My point in responding to this post is that if one speaks in tongues, how do I know it is authentic?

This is not argumentative, but is a very good question. Scripture enjoins us to to test the spirits, and there are many criteria given. For example, one cannot say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.

I fear that if one doesn’t have guidance and teaching from the Pillar of Truth (the One True Church), then they would be speaking not in tongues, but rather giving themselves over to emotional whim (not that it is bad to be emotional over our Lord ).

This is also a good standard to use. A person who is moving in the Holy Spirit will be subject to the shepherds placed over them by God.

Some churches ignore the teaching of Sacred Scripture outright, as far as I can tell. Here is how I come to this conclusion:

When protestant churches allow women to speak in tongues, isn’t this directly forbidden in Corinthians 14? How is it that someone can take the speaking in tongues part, but not the whole passage?

One has to take that whole passage within it’s cultural context also. Paul was writing to an area of the world that was steeped in goddess worship (you can read about this in the book of Acts). Men were marginalized in the Pagan services where women represented the Goddess on earth. It was necessary to take extreme measures to maintain order.

Praying the rosary has done more for my life than I can tell you here in this forum, by the way.

Maybe I don’t get much out of speaking in tongues, because I am a believer already. Paul says that this is for non-believers.

The giving of a word of knowledge is for non-believers, but Paul also teaches that the gift of tongues is for the purpose of building up the individual believer. This is a separate matter from speaking out languages in a service. I think it depends upon the individual. Some are not drawn to contempletive prayer, some are not drawn to rowdy worship songs. I prefer prayer in tongues as I struggle with the rosary, and have never been able to do it right.

 

[guanophore]

Speaking in tongues in the gibberish form is fake. In scripture when Paul talks about speaking in tongues and requiring an interpreter he is talking about foreign languages, not gibberish. For example if everyone in a group only knows only English but someone inspired starts talking in German then only another person who knew German could interpret. Also, if a person allegedly speaks in tongues that person cannot say they do. Only the Church can discern things like that, not the individual nor another layman hearing them.
Also making grunting noises when praying has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.

You have your mind made up about this, but others have a different experience. God is not the author of confusion. It is sad that you have had such an unpleasant experience. I hope some day, this side of heaven, you have a better one. A worship service with prayer and praise in tongues is the closest to heaven I can imagine.

 

[guanophore]

Speaking in tongues in the gibberish form is fake. In scripture when Paul talks about speaking in tongues and requiring an interpreter he is talking about foreign languages, not gibberish. For example if everyone in a group only knows only English but someone inspired starts talking in German then only another person who knew German could interpret. Also, if a person allegedly speaks in tongues that person cannot say they do. Only the Church can discern things like that, not the individual nor another layman hearing them.
Also making grunting noises when praying has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.

You have your mind made up about this, but others have a different experience. God is not the author of confusion. It is sad that you have had such an unpleasant experience. I hope some day, this side of heaven, you have a better one. A worship service with prayer and praise in tongues is the closest to heaven I can imagine.

I was more struck by verse 19: “but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.”

Paul was a teacher, and preacher. These were his primary charisms,and he focused on them instead of his other gifts. He also stated that he was glad he did not baptize others. He did not say this to demean baptism, but because it was not for him to do the baptizing, but others. I bet Paul was singing in tongues when the earthquake opened the prison!