Speaking In Tongues

[po18guy]

This thread is in danger of death from poisoning! The gifts of the Spirit are given to those who are confirmed in the faith. Each has a God-given PURPOSE. Some of us need edifying, so we receive tongues. Others of us are better at edifying those around them. They receive prophecy.

If you have never experienced the release of these gifts then please, go and submit to the Spirit. Then, having the knowledge of the gifts, come and join us to praise God, from Whom they came!

What did Christ say when He appeared to the Apostles behind the locked doors?

“PEACE”

“PEACE”

 

[rlg94086]

So the Holy Spirit doesn’t decide who to give the gifts to as guanophore mentions, I just have to “submit to the Spirit?” Is that correct? I’m really confused.

Can everyone receive these gifts?

This thread is in danger of death from poisoning! The gifts of the Spirit are given to those who are confirmed in the faith. Each has a God-given PURPOSE. Some of us need edifying, so we receive tongues. Others of us are better at edifying those around them. They receive prophecy.

If you have never experienced the release of these gifts then please, go and submit to the Spirit. Then, having the knowledge of the gifts, come and join us to praise God, from Whom they came!

What did Christ say when He appeared to the Apostles behind the locked doors?

“PEACE”

“PEACE”

 

[po18guy]

So the Holy Spirit doesn’t decide who to give the gifts to as guanophore mentions, I just have to “submit to the Spirit?” Is that correct? I’m really confused.

Can everyone receive these gifts?

Each one of us already has the gifts of the Holy Spirit. We received them upon our confirmation in the faith. However, the baptism in the Holy Spirit endeavors to release those gifts, so that they may be put to God’s use. If you are confirmed, you have them-it just takes submission to the Spirit to release them from the bonds of our hardened hearts (my opinion).

Please, consider seeking out an orthodox, charismatic priest and inquiring. I hope this has cleared it up a little.

Christ be with you.

 

[Palladio]

This thread is in danger of death from poisoning! The gifts of the Spirit are given to those who are confirmed in the faith. Each has a God-given PURPOSE. Some of us need edifying, so we receive tongues. Others of us are better at edifying those around them. They receive prophecy.

If you have never experienced the release of these gifts then please, go and submit to the Spirit. Then, having the knowledge of the gifts, come and join us to praise God, from Whom they came!

What did Christ say when He appeared to the Apostles behind the locked doors?

“PEACE”

“PEACE”

No, already torn by being so knotty: poor use of the NT, lame explanation piled upon explanation (some by posters who are not Roman Catholic), foggy ‘witness,’ large and unsupported claims (e. g., prophecy), all topped off by submit to the Spirit and go see a priest.

Sanctimony and unreason get tedious after a while.

Anybody able to find sensible explanations–or reasonable doubts–in the CCC, some authoritative RC source?

 

[DebChris]

No, already torn by being so knotty: poor use of the NT, lame explanation piled upon explanation (some by posters who are not Roman Catholic), foggy ‘witness,’ large and unsupported claims (e. g., prophecy), all topped off by submit to the Spirit and go see a priest.

Sanctimony and unreason get tedious after a while.

Anybody able to find sensible explanations–or reasonable doubts–in the CCC, some authoritative RC source?

I am not sure what I am about to post will help unknot your confusion. It may simply sound like more of the some.
I received the gift on Ascension Thursday at a retreat center run by Marianists. The phenomenon is accepted by the Roman Catholic Church. I mentioned in earlier posts, the annual retreat at Steubenville in which even priests may experience the release of the Holy Spirit for the first time.
Catholic Pentecostals was written by the Rhanahans, among the first to experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit in 1967. It provides an excellent history and personal accounts. St. Paul calls speaking in tongues the least of the gifts. It is because it is very much like the babbling of a young child that it one of the first charismata exhibited (Catholic Pentecostals).
You may want to look for a Life in the Spirit Seminar. A Life in the Spirit Seminar generally lasts about 6 weeks with the Baptism of the Spirit received during the 5th week. It is ecumenical in nature. There is a Catholic version that lasts 8 weeks called You Will Receive Power I have attended both. You Will Receive Power involves journalling and how the gifts relate to our Catholic faith.
Again, I am not sure whether or not I have helped with the knots, but these are places to check. Your parish priest may be able to help you find the seminars.

 

[rlg94086]

Hi Palladio,

The gifts are mentioned in the Catechism, in the section on grace:

[2003](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2003.htm’) Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called *charisms *after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’"58

However, the idea of a separate “baptism in the Holy Spirit” is not mentioned anywhere. I’m not sure where that teaching comes from…maybe the Protestant Pentecostal movement?

I always thought the equivalent was Confirmation:

**1316 **Confirmation perfects Baptismal grace; it is the sacrament which gives the Holy Spirit in order to root us more deeply in the divine filiation, incorporate us more firmly into Christ, strengthen our bond with the Church, associate us more closely with her mission, and help us bear witness to the Christian faith in words accompanied by deeds.

No, already torn by being so knotty: poor use of the NT, lame explanation piled upon explanation (some by posters who are not Roman Catholic), foggy ‘witness,’ large and unsupported claims (e. g., prophecy), all topped off by submit to the Spirit and go see a priest.

Sanctimony and unreason get tedious after a while.

Anybody able to find sensible explanations–or reasonable doubts–in the CCC, some authoritative RC source?

 

[DebChris]

Hi Palladio,

The gifts are mentioned in the Catechism, in the section on grace:

However, the idea of a separate “baptism in the Holy Spirit” is not mentioned anywhere. I’m not sure where that teaching comes from…maybe the Protestant Pentecostal movement?

I always thought the equivalent was Confirmation:

The “baptism of the Holy Spirit” does come from the Protestant Pentecostal movement. The Protestant Pentecostal movement came out of the revivals of the 19th and 20th century. It was separate from the fundamental denominations which did not accept the experience as real. It is also referred to as being “filled with the Holy Ghost.”
The term baptism of the Holy Spirit can be confusing because it is not in reality a new Sacrament. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a release of the gifts already received in Baptism and Confirmation. It is the same experience as those of the Protestant Pentecostal movement. We just don’t have a better term to explain it.

 

[rlg94086]

The “baptism of the Holy Spirit” does come from the Protestant Pentecostal movement. The Protestant Pentecostal movement came out of the revivals of the 19th and 20th century. It was separate from the fundamental denominations which did not accept the experience as real. It is also referred to as being “filled with the Holy Ghost.”
The term baptism of the Holy Spirit can be confusing because it is not in reality a new Sacrament. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a release of the gifts already received in Baptism and Confirmation. It is the same experience as those of the Protestant Pentecostal movement. We just don’t have a better term to explain it.

Has it been defined in any encyclicals or letters from the Pope? A Church Council? The Catechism? Some of the comments on this forum are contradictory, so I would like to see something with some authority.

 

[DebChris]

Has it been defined in any encyclicals or letters from the Pope? A Church Council? The Catechism? Some of the comments on this forum are contradictory, so I would like to see something with some authority.

My resources are minimal. Somebody should have more recent resources.
Most NT references can be found in Acts and Corinthians.
The following two resources were used and recommended in the Bibliography for Catholic Pentecostal by Kevin and Dorothy Rhanahan:
John of St. Thomas(1951) The Gifts of the Holy Spirit discusses the rich theological and spiritual tradition in the Catholic Church.
John Sherrill,They Speak in Tongues.
Anyway, these should help.

 

[rlg94086]

Thanks DebChris. I will see if I can find those books.

What I was looking for was something from the Church though. Nothing personal against those authors as I don’t know what they write, but I have read a few too many Catholic theologians who don’t teach what the Church teaches. A letter or encylclical from the Pope would be nice. Something from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (the Pope’s old stompin’ grounds) would also be helpful.

My resources are minimal. Somebody should have more recent resources.
Most NT references can be found in Acts and Corinthians.
The following two resources were used and recommended in the Bibliography for Catholic Pentecostal by Kevin and Dorothy Rhanahan:
John of St. Thomas(1951) The Gifts of the Holy Spirit discusses the rich theological and spiritual tradition in the Catholic Church.
John Sherrill,They Speak in Tongues.
Anyway, these should help.

 

[po18guy]

No, already torn by being so knotty: poor use of the NT, lame explanation piled upon explanation (some by posters who are not Roman Catholic), foggy ‘witness,’ large and unsupported claims (e. g., prophecy), all topped off by submit to the Spirit and go see a priest.

Sanctimony and unreason get tedious after a while.

Anybody able to find sensible explanations–or reasonable doubts–in the CCC, some authoritative RC source?

You are knocking it without trying it. We are all praying for you.

 

[guanophore]

So the Holy Spirit doesn’t decide who to give the gifts to as guanophore mentions, I just have to “submit to the Spirit?” Is that correct? I’m really confused.

Can everyone receive these gifts?

I believe so, yes. I think that once someone is baptised and confirmed, or as the Protestants experience “baptized in the Spirit”, such a person is able to experience any and all of the gifts.

1 Cor 12:4-11
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."

Potentially, each one can experience all of the gifts. Whether or not one does depends up on that person’s calling.

Note in v. 8 the Apostle states “to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for th ecommon good”. So which gift a person receives depends upon how that person is called to serve the body.

1 Cor 14:1-5
14:1 Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, he who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified. "

Rom 12:5-6
6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them"

 

[guanophore]

So the Holy Spirit doesn’t decide who to give the gifts to as guanophore mentions, I just have to “submit to the Spirit?” Is that correct? I’m really confused.

Can everyone receive these gifts?

I believe so, yes. I think that once someone is baptised and confirmed, or as the Protestants experience “baptized in the Spirit”, such a person is able to experience any and all of the gifts.

1 Cor 12:4-11
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."

Potentially, each one can experience all of the gifts. Whether or not one does depends up on that person’s calling.

Note in v. 8 the Apostle states “to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for th ecommon good”. So which gift a person receives depends upon how that person is called to serve the body.

1 Cor 14:1-5
14:1 Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, he who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified. "

Rom 12:5-6
6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them"

Hi Palladio,

The gifts are mentioned in the Catechism, in the section on grace:

However, the idea of a separate “baptism in the Holy Spirit” is not mentioned anywhere. I’m not sure where that teaching comes from…maybe the Protestant Pentecostal movement?

I always thought the equivalent was Confirmation:

Yes, this is a Protestant rendering from a tradition that denies water baptism. When Jesus speaks of being “born from above” they believe it is speaking of a baptism only of Spirit, and not of water. Catholicsm teaches that the water and Spirit are connected, and that this happens in Baptism, and again in Confirmation. However, the official teaching of the church does not focus on the gifts in Corinthians being released in Confirmation, but only those in Isaiah. All Catholics who have participated in the sacraments have been “baptized in the Spirit” but most have not experienced the “manifestation” of the Corinthian gifts. I think this is just because it is not commonly taught.

 

[rlg94086]

Yes, this is a Protestant rendering from a tradition that denies water baptism. When Jesus speaks of being “born from above” they believe it is speaking of a baptism only of Spirit, and not of water. Catholicsm teaches that the water and Spirit are connected, and that this happens in Baptism, and again in Confirmation. However, the official teaching of the church does not focus on the gifts in Corinthians being released in Confirmation, but only those in Isaiah. All Catholics who have participated in the sacraments have been “baptized in the Spirit” but most have not experienced the “manifestation” of the Corinthian gifts. I think this is just because it is not commonly taught.

If it isn’t official teaching of the Church, then I wouldn’t expect it to be commonly taught. That is why I am asking. What I have learned on this thread is that…

1. …most agree that the gifts St. Paul mentioned are real.
2. …the idea of “baptism of the Holy Spirit” comes from the Pentecostal Church, and has been descibed as something I must do after Confirmation to receive the gifts. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2625630&postcount=87
3. “…baptism of the Holy Spirit” is not officially taught or defined by the Church.

This being the case, I find it difficult to determine if I should be involved in the Charismatic Renewal. If I had something a little more official from the Church describing the way a charismatic prayer service should be conducted and the practice of “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” then I would be more predisposed to check it out.

 

[po18guy]

If it isn’t official teaching of the Church, then I wouldn’t expect it to be commonly taught. That is why I am asking. What I have learned on this thread is that…

1. …most agree that the gifts St. Paul mentioned are real.
2. …the idea of “baptism of the Holy Spirit” comes from the Pentecostal Church, and has been descibed as something I must do after Confirmation to receive the gifts. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2625630&postcount=87
3. “…baptism of the Holy Spirit” is not officially taught or defined by the Church.

This being the case, I find it difficult to determine if I should be involved in the Charismatic Renewal. If I had something a little more official from the Church describing the way a charismatic prayer service should be conducted and the practice of “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” then I would be more predisposed to check it out.

1. Correct.
2. The term might have originated with the Pents, I dunno. You already HAVE the gifts, the “baptism” just RELEASES them. Please don’t fear that you’ll go around all day babbling in Aramaic! There are many gifts and you consciously use them to do God’s will.
3. The baptisms are done with full knowledge and consent of the local Bishop.
4. What are you waiting for? Truthfully, I had to be convinced to go through with it. If you are willing to decrease yourself so that He may increase, you have the spiritual experience of a lifetime just waiting.

You will not believe the miracles that can be accomplished through the Holy Spirit. How else do you propose to go forth “boldly proclaiiming the Word”? Are you doing so now? If not, just try it. It transformed me.

Christ’s peace to you.

 

[DebChris]

Thanks DebChris. I will see if I can find those books.

What I was looking for was something from the Church though. Nothing personal against those authors as I don’t know what they write, but I have read a few too many Catholic theologians who don’t teach what the Church teaches. A letter or encylclical from the Pope would be nice. Something from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (the Pope’s old stompin’ grounds) would also be helpful.

I picked out the following from the CCC. I realize it does not fully answer your questions, but it may help. Does your parish have a charismatic prayer group? If so, maybe they have some literature that would help. Since the literature itself seems to be a issue, check the literature bibliographies. The Vatican documents only mention the charisms as related to religious orders.

1. “So that she can fulfuill her mission, the Holy Spirit ‘bestows upon [the Church] varied heirachic and charismatic gifts, and in this way directs her.’”
2. “the Holy Spirit, whom Christ the head pours out on his members, builds, animates, and sanctifies the Church.”
3. “Charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit.”
4. “The Church is the place where we know the Holy Spirit.” Various ways are given including
   " --in the charisms and ministries by which the Church is built up."

951"…to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."

2003.“Whatever their character–sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues–charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.”

1. “They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ.”

An issue that is also brought out in the CCC is that of discernment. Prophecy, for instance when uttered in a prayer meeting, is subject to discernment. Is what is spoken really from God or individual imagination? There is generally somebody in the group with the gift of discernment, not a brand new member.

 

[BigFeet]

It is recognized by the magisterium.

From Colin B. Donovan, STL (Vice President of Theology at EWTN):

"the Church teaches that Faith, Hope and Charity are necessary for salvation but the charismata are not. St. Paul’s experience at Corinth demonstrated rather early in the Church how susceptible these charisms are to exaggeration. In another context, he would even warn the Corinthians that the devil can appear as an angel of light (1 Cor 11:14). Similarly, both St. Peter and St. John (1 Pet 5:8-9; 1 John 4:1) warn us of this danger.

St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae [ST II-II q172 a2] tells us that unless a charism requires the exercise of divine power the Holy Spirit accomplishes it through the mediation of the holy angels. When they are within the power of the angelic nature, they are also capable of demonic imitation. It is difficult to explain the “charismatic power of speech” of a Hitler, for instance, on purely natural grounds. It is for these reasons that most spiritual writers, especially the mystical doctor St. John of the Cross, warn us not to seek such extraordinary phenomenon. As noted earlier, Vatican II made this warning part of its teaching on the charismatic gifts."

 

[rlg94086]

You will not believe the miracles that can be accomplished through the Holy Spirit. How else do you propose to go forth “boldly proclaiiming the Word”? Are you doing so now? If not, just try it. It transformed me.

Christ’s peace to you.

You do so the way the saints in the Catholic Church have been doing for many, many years before the Charismatic movement began.

 

[rlg94086]

I picked out the following from the CCC. I realize it does not fully answer your questions, but it may help. Does your parish have a charismatic prayer group? If so, maybe they have some literature that would help. Since the literature itself seems to be a issue, check the literature bibliographies. The Vatican documents only mention the charisms as related to religious orders.

1. “So that she can fulfuill her mission, the Holy Spirit ‘bestows upon [the Church] varied heirachic and charismatic gifts, and in this way directs her.’”
2. “the Holy Spirit, whom Christ the head pours out on his members, builds, animates, and sanctifies the Church.”
3. “Charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit.”
4. “The Church is the place where we know the Holy Spirit.” Various ways are given including
   " --in the charisms and ministries by which the Church is built up."

951"…to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."

2003.“Whatever their character–sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues–charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.”

1. “They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ.”

An issue that is also brought out in the CCC is that of discernment. Prophecy, for instance when uttered in a prayer meeting, is subject to discernment. Is what is spoken really from God or individual imagination? There is generally somebody in the group with the gift of discernment, not a brand new member.

I don’t doubt the gifts, I am questioning what the Church teaches about “baptism of the Spirit.”

1. The baptisms are done with full knowledge and consent of the local Bishop.

If this is the case, then the “baptisms” should have some clear teaching to explain how they are performed. I know they aren’t a Sacrament, so I’m not clear on the validity of the “baptism” being done. What prayers need to be said? The Church is usually very straightforward about these things.

Last night I prayed to Our Lord while adoring Him, and I asked for the gift of tongues…if it pleases Him. As far as I am concerned, that should be sufficient. I don’t see why a Charismatic service is necessary.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

(…)
3) “…baptism of the Holy Spirit” is not officially taught or defined by the Church.

(…)

(…)

1. The baptisms are done with full knowledge and consent of the local Bishop.

(…)

I don’t doubt the gifts, I am questioning what the Church teaches about “baptism of the Spirit.”

If this is the case, then the “baptisms” should have some clear teaching to explain how they are performed. I know they aren’t a Sacrament, so I’m not clear on the validity of the “baptism” being done. What prayers need to be said? The Church is usually very straightforward about these things.

(My bold)

It should be mentioned that “baptism of the Holy Spirit” doesn’t need to be “performed”. It’s not something that is done to me, rather it is something that I desire and ask for. Sometimes people are prayed over for the BotHS, by one person or many (like a prayer group) or I can sit in my living room and ask away. So, the idea that the bishop would have knowledge or consent seems foreign to me.

People talk about it like it is an event, and I imagine it can seem like that, but I can’t nail down my BotHS. Was it being prayed over by a Charismatic priest after a Mass? Or when I prayed in my room? Or did it happen when I went to confession this particular time (because things were really different after that one)? All I will share with you is that it happened prior to a Life in the Spirit seminar.