Speaking in Tongues

[ChristianIssues]

there are some accurate statements in this video, but the timeline is wrong. The gifts of the HS were given for the building up of the Body of Christ, therefore, will be needed until He calls His Bride home to Himself.

The other gross error is the assertion that the Gifts of the HS are “childish”. Tongues, knowledge, and prophesy are not “childish”. If they were, Paul would not so stronly urge the believers to earnestly desire prophesy especially.

Faith, Hope, and Love do remain, and indeed there will be no need for faith and hope when we are joined eternally to Him. However, as long as we sojourn here in the vale of tears, we need all of His gifts and grace to get there.

I understand why some people are afraid of the charismatic gifts. The exercise of them requires that one yield one’s will and feeling of being in control, which is difficult. It is an exercise of trust in God, to build up our faith in Him.

Hello guanophore,

The fact that you agree that faith and hope cease when we are with Christ is the very basis of my argument. Because this is so, tongues, prophecy and knowledge must cease before we see Jesus. Please re-watch the first 2 mins of the video which are about the words cease and remain.
Another way to look at the ceasing and remaining is like this - There are six men. Three die (cease to be) leaving 3 alive (remaining). Then, some time later on, 2 more die leaving just 1 alive. This is the sequence of events with the six items in 1 Cor. 13:8-10 -

1. Tongues, Prophecy and Knowledge cease first
2. this leaves Faith & Hope remaining to cease when Jesus returns
3. this leaves Love to remain forever.
   So, it plain that tongues, prophecy and knowledge cease before Jesus returns. I don’t know of any other way to interpret these words without compromising the English language. Is there another way to look at this?

God bless,
Mick

 

[brb3]

There are so many errors in that presentation, it is hard to know where to begin!

The Church teaches that the gifts of the Spirit are for the building up of the Body of Christ, and therefore, will be needed so long as His Bride sojourns here on earth.

That entire presentation is based upon the fundamental heresy of Sola Scriptura.

1 Cor. 13:8-10 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease… but when the perfect comes, the imperfect [tongues, etc] will pass away.

This suggests tongues still are present within the Church … and not until the Second Coming of Christ that they will cease.

Any arguments that overrule this Pauline teaching ?

 

[wisdomseeker]

1 Cor. 13:8-10 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease… but when the perfect comes, the imperfect [tongues, etc] will pass away.

This suggests tongues still are present within the Church … and not until the Second Coming of Christ that they will cease.

Any arguments that overrule this Pauline teaching ?

concern is that those who claim to speak this language which we dont understand, its far from building of the Body. first, those involved in this movement for what i see are practically dissents. they dont obey and do not teach the Truth of the Church. second, St Paul says that a certain unknon language that was spoken it was between man and God and it was not to be public since one could not understand. what charismatics are doing is far from this teaching.

 

[brb3]

concern is that those who claim to speak this language which we dont understand, its far from building of the Body. first, those involved in this movement for what i see are practically dissents. they dont obey and do not teach the Truth of the Church. second, St Paul says that a certain unknon language that was spoken it was between man and God and it was not to be public since one could not understand. what charismatics are doing is far from this teaching.

Perhaps you are speaking of Charismatic Non-Catholics ?

‘Charismatic’ Catholics — would seem what the Post-Vatican 2 leadership has encouraged the Church to recover from our apostolic traditions.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Perhaps you are speaking of Charismatic Non-Catholics ?

‘Charismatic’ Catholics — would seem what the Post-Vatican 2 leadership has encouraged the Church to recover from our apostolic traditions.

to recover from what apostolic Traditions? people falling on the floor and speak something that no one understand? looking at the those pictures, do you really see the apostles doing this?

charismatic Catholics and protestants charismatics are one in the same. Catholics got this from protestants. they do the same thing.

 

[guanophore]

Hello guanophore,

The fact that you agree that faith and hope cease when we are with Christ is the very basis of my argument.

No. Christian.

The basis of your arguement is the heresy of Sola Scriptura. When one comproses an arguement based upon a false premise such as this, the conclusion is bound to be flawed.

Because this is so, tongues, prophecy and knowledge must cease before we see Jesus.

No, Christian. These are gifts that are given to the Church, for the building up of the Body. This need will continue until He comes for His bride.

Please re-watch the first 2 mins of the video which are about the words cease and remain.

I have no arguement about the meaning of the words. My argurment is the manner in which you apply them.

Another way to look at the ceasing and remaining is like this - There are six men. Three die (cease to be) leaving 3 alive (remaining). Then, some time later on, 2 more die leaving just 1 alive. This is the sequence of events with the six items in 1 Cor. 13:8-10 -

1. Tongues, Prophecy and Knowledge cease first
2. this leaves Faith & Hope remaining to cease when Jesus returns
3. this leaves Love to remain forever.
   So, it plain that tongues, prophecy and knowledge cease before Jesus returns.

I commend you to your interpretation, Christian. If you do not wish to avail yourself of the gifts of the HS, this is your perogative.

I don’t know of any other way to interpret these words without compromising the English language. Is there another way to look at this?

Absolutely. On can interpret it from the language in which it was written, and the context in which it was written. Neither includes “the English language”. This is called literary and historical criticism, and is very helpful in understanding the scriptures.

Further, one can look at the scriptures through the lens of the faith embraced by those that wrote them. When you try to separate the Scriptutre from that faith, as you have done, it results in erroneous understandings of the text.

 

[guanophore]

1 Cor. 13:8-10 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease… but when the perfect comes, the imperfect [tongues, etc] will pass away.

This suggests tongues still are present within the Church … and not until the Second Coming of Christ that they will cease.

Any arguments that overrule this Pauline teaching ?

There are several on that video link posted above, all of them false.

 

[brb3]

The other gross error is the assertion that the Gifts of the HS are “childish”. Tongues, knowledge, and prophesy are not “childish”. If they were, Paul would not so stronly urge the believers to earnestly desire prophesy especially.

:yup:

Notice how this video does not let scripture speak for itself … rather he presents his global interpretation of the topic, and then makes scripture ‘fit’ his assumptions.

 

[grannymh]

to recover from what apostolic Traditions? people falling on the floor and speak something that no one understand? looking at the those pictures, do you really see the apostles doing this?

What do you think the Apostles did in the Upper Room?

Would you remain standing with the tongue of fire coming to rest on you? Would you be powerful enough to stand when “suddenly there came from the sky a noise like as strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were.”? My guess is that your knees would be the first to hit the floor.

charismatic Catholics and protestants charismatics are one in the same. Catholics got this from protestants. they do the same thing.

The historical errors regarding “Catholic” Pentecostalism occur because of confusion between the New Testament as accepted by the Catholic Church and Methodism founded by John Wesley. Apparently, some people fail to make the distinction between the basic teachings of the New Testament and the additional teachings from a given Protestant tradition.

Blessings,
granny

Acts 2: 4

 

[Hoxbar]

As a pentacostal let me first say tongues is very real. Granny’s comments are spot on. I wish more Catholics understood tongues like granny. I’ve become very intrested in the catholic church and would convert if mote Catholics understood the tongues like granny. It’s real folks!

 

[guanophore]

As a pentacostal let me first say tongues is very real. Granny’s comments are spot on. I wish more Catholics understood tongues like granny. I’ve become very intrested in the catholic church and would convert if mote Catholics understood the tongues like granny. It’s real folks!

I thank you for sharing your testimony Hoxbar.

However, your decision to come home to the Church founded by the Apostles should not be based upon whether certain persons calling themselves Catholics reject the Teachings of the Church. That is like basing your decision about following Jesus on the choice of Judas to betray Him.

Your decision about converting should be based upon the Truth. The Truth is that the Catholic Church teaches the gifts of Pentecost are “real”. If certain persons do not accep this Truth, don’t let that disuade you.

There will always be members of the Body who don’t understand and use the gifts that have been given to us by God. All we can do is share our testimony, and demonstrate the Spirit filled life to them.

 

[firstmode]

The Didache (written between 80 A.D. and 110 A.D.) - Chapter 11. Concerning Teachers, Apostles, and Prophets. - “And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known.”

The Didache (written between 80 A.D. and 110 A.D.) Chapter 11. Concerning Teachers, Apostles, and Prophets. - “And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others’ sake who are in need, let no one judge him.”

The Didache (written between 80 A.D. and 110 A.D.) Chapter 12 - “Therefore choose of yourselves bishops and deacons who are worthy of the Lord, men who are unassuming and not greedy, who are true and who have been approved. For they are performing the service of prophets and teachers for you. Therefore, do not despise them, for they are your honoured men, along with the prophets and teachers.”

I Clement 96AD Chapter 38:1 “Let, therefore, our whole body be saved in Christ Jesus, and let each be subject to his neighbour, according to the gift which he hath received.”

Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp 98 to 108 AD - “9. For this reason you are composed of flesh and spirit, so that you may modify those things that appear before your face.10. And as for those that are not seen, pray to God that he would reveal them to you, so that you may be lacking in nothing, but may abound in every gift.”

Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians 7:1 98 to 108 AD - “For even though certain persons desired to deceive me after the flesh, yet the spirit is not deceived, being from God; for it knoweth whence it cometh and where it goeth, and it searcheth out the hidden things. I cried out, when I was among you; I spake with a loud voice, with God’s own voice, Give ye heed to the bishop and the presbytery and deacons. 7:2 Howbeit there were those who suspected me of saying this, because I knew beforehand of the division of certain persons. But He in whom I am bound is my witness that I learned it not from flesh of man; it was the preaching of the Spirit who spake on this wise; Do nothing without the bishop; keep your flesh as a temple of God; cherish union; shun divisions; be imitators of Jesus Christ, as He Himself also was of His Father.”

Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 20: 98 to 108 AD - “If Jesus Christ permit me through your prayer, and it be God’s will, in my second treatise, which I am about to write unto you, I will go on to set forth the Divine plan, which I began to expound, with reference to the new man, Jesus Christ, consisting in faith in Him and love toward Him, in His Passion and Resurrection, especially if the Lord make any revelation to me.”

Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans 7: 98 to 108 AD - “For though I am alive while I write to you, yet I am eager to die. My love has been crucified, and there is no fire in me desiring to be fed; but there is within me a water that liveth and speaketh, saying to me inwardly, Come to the Father.”

Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians 5: 98 to 108 AD - "Am I not able to write to you of heavenly things? But I fear to do so, lest I should inflict injury on you who are but babes [in Christ]. Pardon me in this respect, lest, as not being able to receive [such doctrines], ye should be strangled by them. For even I, though I am bound [for Christ], yet am not on that account able to understand heavenly things, and the places of the angels, and their gatherings under their respective princes, things visible and invisible. Without reference to such abstruse subjects, I am still but a learner [in other respects]; for many things are wanting to us, that we come not short of God.

 

[firstmode]

The Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 110) Mandate 11 - "1[43]:5 For no Spirit given of God needeth to be consulted; but, having the power of deity, speaketh all things of itself, because it is from above, even from the power of the divine Spirit.1[43]:7 “How then, Sir,” say I, “shall a man know who of them is a prophet, and who a false prophet?” “Hear,” saith he, “concerning both the prophets; and, as I shall tell thee, so shalt thou test the prophet and the false prophet. By his life test the man that hath the divine Spirit.1[43]:8 In the first place, he that hath the [divine] Spirit, which is from above, is gentle and tranquil and humble-minded, and abstaineth from all wickedness and vain desire of this present world, and holdeth himself inferior to all men, and giveth no answer to any man when enquired of, nor speaketh in solitude (for neither doth the Holy Spirit speak when a man wisheth Him to speak); but the man speaketh then when God wisheth him to speak.1[43]:9 When then the man who hath the divine Spirit cometh into an assembly of righteous men, who have faith in a divine Spirit, and intercession is made to God by the gathering of those men, then the angel of the prophetic spirit, who is attached to him, filleth the man, and the man, being filled with the Holy Spirit, speaketh to the multitude, according as the Lord willeth.1[43]:10 In this way then the Spirit of the deity shall be manifest. This then is the greatness of the power as touching the Spirit of the deity of the Lord. 1[43]:16 I have given thee the life of both kinds of prophets. Therefore test, by his life and his works, the man who says that he is moved by the Spirit. 1[43]:17 But do thou trust the Spirit that cometh from God, and hath power; but in the earthly and empty spirit put no trust at all; for in it there is no power, for it cometh from the devil.1[43]:20 Now take the power which cometh from above. The hail is a very, small grain, and yet, when it falleth on a man’s head, what pain it causeth! Or again, take a drop which falls on the ground from the tiles, and bores through the stone. 1[43]:21 Thou seest then that the smallest things from above falling on the earth have great power. So likewise the divine Spirit coming from above is powerful. This Spirit therefore trust, but from the other hold aloof.”

 

[firstmode]

Irenaeus - Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 32) 180AD - “Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practising deception upon any, nor taking any reward Acts 8:9, 18 from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely Matthew 10:8 from God, freely also does she minister [to others].”

Irenaeus - Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 32) - “5. Nor does she perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error. If, therefore, the name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits [upon men], and cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe in Him…”

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:6:1 - “In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God.”

Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book II, 32:4 (190 A.D.) - “For some (Christians do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe and join themselves to the church.” DELIVERANCE is also implied to be done by Christians in Book II, 31:2.

Justin Martyr, Second Apology, Ch. 8 (153 A.D.) - This apology was addressed to the Roman Senate. “And they (demons), having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the Name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them.”

** Justin Martyr, Second Apology, Ch. 6** - “And now you (Roman Senate) can learn this from what is under your own observation. For numberless demoniacs throughout the whole world, and in your city, many of our Christian men exorcising them in the Name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, have healed and do heal, rendering helpless and driving the demons out of men, though they could not be cured by all the other exorcists, and those who used incantations and drugs.”

**Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew, Ch. 30 (150 A.D.) ** - “For we call Him (Jesus) Helper and Redeemer, the power of whose name even the demons do fear; and at this day, when they are exorcised in the Name of Jesus Christ, they are overcome.”

Dialogue With Trypho, Ch. 76 - “And now we, who believe on our Lord Jesus, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, when we exorcise all demons and evil spirits, have them subjected to us.”

Dialogue With Trypho, Ch. 85 - “For every demon, when exorcised in the Name of this very Son of God…is overcome and subdued. But though you exorcise any demon in the name of any of those who were amongst you–either kings, righteous men, or prophets or patriarchs–it will not be subject to you. Now assuredly your (Jewish) exorcists, I have said, make use of this craft when they exorcise, even as the Gentiles do, and employ fumigations and incantations.”

**Tatian, Address of Tatian to the Greeks, Ch. 16 (160 A.D.) ** - "Sometimes they themselves (demons) disturb the habit of the body by a tempest of folly; but, being smitten by the Word of God, they depart in terror, and the sick man is healed.

**Theophilus, Theophilus to Autolycus, Book II. 8 (160-180 A.D.) ** - Theophilus is refuting the false teachings of Homer and Hesiod who were famous Greek poets. “…And this clearly appears from the fact, that even to this day the demonized are sometimes exorcised in the Name of the living and true God and these spirits of error themselves confess that they are demons who also formerly inspired these writers (Homer and Hesiod).”

 

[firstmode]

**Tertullian, Apology, Ch. 23 (197 A.D.) ** - “Let a person be brought before your tribunals; who is plainly under demonic possession. The wicked spirit, BIDDEN TO SPEAK by a follower of Christ, will as readily make the truthful confession that he is a demon, as elsewhere he has falsely asserted that he is a god.”

Tertullian, Apology, Ch. 37 - “Who would save you (Roman Rulers), I mean, from the attacks of those spirits of evil, which without reward or hire we (Christians) exorcise?”

Tertullian, To Scapula, Ch. 4 - “The clerk of one of the courts who was liable to be thrown upon the ground by an evil spirit, was set free from his affliction (by Christians); as was also the relative of another, and the little boy of a third. How many men of rank (to say nothing of common people) have been DELIVERED from demons, and healed of diseases?”

**Minucius Felix, The Octavious of Minucius Felix (210 A.D.) ** - “A great many, even some of your own people, know all those things that the demons themselves confess concerning themselves, as often as they are driven by us (Christians) from bodies by the torments of our words and by the fires of our prayer.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. IV, p. 190).

**Origen, Against Celsus, Book I, 46 (230-254) A.D.) ** - “And there are still preserved among Christians traces of that Holy Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove. The Christians expel evil spirits, and perform many cures, and foresee certain events, according to the will of the Logos.”

 

[firstmode]

Against Celsus, Book I, 67 - “And the Name of Jesus can still remove distractions from the minds of men, and expel demons, and also take away diseases and produce a complete change of character…”

**Lactentius, The Divine Institutes, Book II, 16 (250-320 A.D.) ** - “But they (demons) fear the righteous, that is, the worshipers of God, adjured by whose name they depart from the bodies (of people); for being lashed by the Christians’ words, they not only confess to be demons, but even utter their own names.”

**Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecturer, 16:12 (350-375 A.D.) ** - “For He (Holy Spirit) employs the tongue of one man for wisdom; the soul of another He enlightens by prophecy, to another He gives power to drive away demons…”

The Divine Institutes, Book V, 22 - “For these (demons), as long as there is peace among the people of God, flee from the righteous, and fear them; and when they seize upon the bodies of men, and house their souls, they are adjured by the Christians, and at the Name of the true God are put to flight. For when the demons hear of this name they tremble, cry out, and assert that they are branded and beaten; and being asked who they are, whence they are come, and how they have insinuated themselves INTO a man, confess it. Thus, being tortured and excruciated by the power of the Divine Name, they come out of the man.”

 

[wisdomseeker]

firstmode.

i couldnt read everything, it was too long. but doesnt these Scriptures speaks of teachers, prophets, deacons, and apostles only? then, why is the laity being the ones claim such things?

 

[firstmode]

**Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul (197 A.D.) ** - “God everywhere manifests signs of his power – to his own people for their comfort, to strangers for a testimony unto them.”

 

[firstmode]

**Cyprian (254) A.D.) ** - “In Christianity there is conferred (upon pure chastity, upon a pure mind, upon pure speech) the gift of healing the sick by rendering poisonous potions harmless, [143] by restoring the deranged to health, and thus purifying them from ignominious pains, by commanding peace for the hostile, rest for the violent, and gentleness for the unruly, by forcing – under stress of threats and invective – a confession from unclean and roving spirits who have come to dwell within mankind, by roughly ordering them out, and stretching them out with struggles, howls, and groans, as their sufferings on the rack, by lashing them with scourges, and burning them with fire. This is what goes on, though no one sees it; the punishments are hidden, but the penalty is open. Thus what we have already begun to be, that is, the Spirit we have received, comes into its kingdom.”

 

[firstmode]

1st century

“Writers of the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas [two inspirational books used widely in the early church] witness so much charismatic activity they find it necessary to distinguish between true and false prophets. At about the same time, the writer of Pseudo-Barnabas suggests prophetic ministry is normative in the church.”

2nd century

“[Christian apologist] Justin Martyr argues that God has withdrawn the Spirit of prophecy and miracles from the Jews and has transferred it to the church as proof of her continued divine favor.

Irenaeus of Lyon describes the gifts of prophecy, discernment of spirits, and exorcism in his Gallic church, and even mentions that individuals have been raised from the dead. He warns against certain false Gnostics who fabricate spiritual gifts to win favor with the naïve.”

3rd century

“Origen of Alexandria says healings, exorcisms, and validating signs and wonders continue to be experienced in the church. Just as miracles and wonders added to the credibility of 1st-century apostles, so they continue to draw unbelievers into the Christian fold.”

4th century

“Augustine [of Hippo], in The City of God, reports contemporary divine healings and other miracles. These he links directly to the conversion of pagans.”

10th-11th centuries

“Symeon the New Theologian (949-1022), perhaps the most famous Eastern [Orthodox] charismatic Christian, reports his most intimate spiritual experiences, which include a ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit’ accompanied by gifts of copious tears, compunction, and visions of God as light. [Burgess provides a resume of this influential leader’s life and teachings on p. 1112 of the Dictionary.]“

12th-14th centuries

“The sermons of Thomas Aquinas are frequently confirmed by miracles, and he often experiences ecstasy, especially in the last months of his life.

Bonaventure reports that Francis of Assisi, while an unskilled speaker, is empowered by the Holy Spirit while ministering. Wherever he goes, his sermons are accompanied with miracles of great power, including prophecy, casting out devils, and healing the sick. As a result, his hearers pay attention to what he says ‘as if an angel of the Lord was speaking.’”

16th century

“Ignatius Loyola, founder of the Society of Jesus (the Jesuits), frequently receives divine communication in visions. He also experiences a gift of tears—often in such abundance that he cannot control himself—and the gift of loquela, which a few modern scholars associate with today’s charismatic phenomenon of sung glossolalia [tongues].”

17th century

“Jansenists, belonging to a radical Augustinian movement in the Roman Catholic Church from 1640 to 1801 [its most famed adherent was the French scientist and apologist Blaise Pascal], become known for their signs and wonders, spiritual dancing, healings, and prophetic utterances. Some reportedly speak in unknown tongues and understand foreign languages in which they are addressed.”

18th century

“Seraphim of Sarov (1759-1833), the Russian Orthodox charismatic leader, asserts that the goal of the Christian life is the reception of the Holy Spirit. Seraphim’s ‘evidence’ for a baptism of the Holy Spirit is a transfiguration experience—being transformed, while still in the flesh, into divine light. Seraphim also is remembered for a gift of healing.”