Speaking of Modesty - Veils/Headcoverings

[Catholic_Wife]

You’re welcome, gmarie21. I love wearing scarves kerchief style (like Cinderella), and have recently branched out into more “grown up” versions of this style. My newest favorite is this:
Channah

My hair is dark brown / almost black, so the sheer black material blends in with my hair. I also like how long it is, since sometimes I wear my hair down (when it’s wet) and this covers most of it.

 

[RedSoxWife]

Hi!

I like that snood a lot, and don’t think it stand out, but I’m totally biased.

I’ve never had anyone think I was hairless of ill when I was wearing a snood, mostly because it’s pretty clear that you have hair when you wear it (as you can see in the picture). People might think I’m Jewish when I have them on to disguise a bad hair day (like today!) when I’m out and about. We have a large Muslim population here and snoods are very different than there usual covers, so that hasn’t been a question I’ve answered. When I lived in California my husband was asked a couple times by Pentecostals if we were Pentecostal, but I think that had more to do with the fact that I wear long skirts a lot of the time because they’re just so comfy. And “what are you” isn’t a likely question at Mass anyways!

My main plus (and again, totally biased, LOL!) is that my littles can’t yank them off with their freakishly strong arms. They could mangle my hats and yank veils off through sewed in combs. I got tired of clutching at them as they engaged in rounds of wrestle-the-headcovering-off-moms head. That’s why I started sewing snoods a few years ago. And the linen ones are especially handy because they’re so tough.

 

[ac_claire]

Hehe… that’s a picture of my friend who makes headcoverings! (Hi Cammie!)

I was wondering if that was her!

 

[Catholic_Wife]

So if by wearing a headcovering, which is not the cultural norm, am I attracting unnecessary attention to myself and in doing so, actually being immodest?
Or am I justified for believing I’m just following personal convictions?

Thoughts?

I suggest rephrasing the question and replacing “a headcovering” with just about anything else that is considered modest, for example long skirts or shirts that show cleavage.

"So if by wearing shirts that don’t show cleavage, which is not the cultural norm, am I attracting unnecessary attention to myself and in do so, actually being immodest? Or am I justified for believing I’m just following personal convictions?"

Does that change anything?

 

[PetiteFoi]

I suggest rephrasing the question and replacing “a headcovering” with just about anything else that is considered modest, for example long skirts or shirts that show cleavage.

"So if by wearing shirts that don’t show cleavage, which is not the cultural norm, am I attracting unnecessary attention to myself and in do so, actually being immodest? Or am I justified for believing I’m just following personal convictions?"

Does that change anything?

See! That does change everything, you’re absolutely right!
See here’s an outfit I wore to church, I don’t feel like I look Amish, or like a chemo patient (imho)… Oh and credited to Cammie for her awesome snood I adore

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Peace,
~ PetiteFoi

 

[DarkLight]

I suggest rephrasing the question and replacing “a headcovering” with just about anything else that is considered modest, for example long skirts or shirts that show cleavage.

"So if by wearing shirts that don’t show cleavage, which is not the cultural norm, am I attracting unnecessary attention to myself and in do so, actually being immodest? Or am I justified for believing I’m just following personal convictions?"

Does that change anything?

Think about it, though. I do think that, say, the women who go around in denim skirts and loose ruffled blouses are being immodest. Even if it’s their belief that they should be wearing that, there are better ways to do it. A maxi skirt, tank top, and shrug would provide the same modesty without drawing attention.

All that to say, it’s worth considering, and possibly worth choosing less showy options for head-coverings. Especially since the Catholic church does not consider head-coverings to be for the purpose of physical modesty in the way some other groups do, but a symbol of reverence and worship.

 

[AllEars]

See! That does change everything, you’re absolutely right!
See here’s an outfit I wore to church, I don’t feel like I look Amish, or like a chemo patient (imho)… Oh and credited to Cammie for her awesome snood I adore

Peace,
~ PetiteFoi

What a GREAT look! Does Cammie have a website where these can be purchased? I would LOVE one…or two…or three or four.

 

[Godisgreat23]

This is wonderful its hard to think this sort of stuff exists in today’s world wonderful stuff…

 

[thewanderer]

I suggest rephrasing the question and replacing “a headcovering” with just about anything else that is considered modest, for example long skirts or shirts that show cleavage.

"So if by wearing shirts that don’t show cleavage, which is not the cultural norm, am I attracting unnecessary attention to myself and in do so, actually being immodest? Or am I justified for believing I’m just following personal convictions?"

Does that change anything?

Sorry to be picky, but I don’t really think that is a good analogy. Showing cleavage is not the same as covering ones head.

And even among shirts that don’t show cleavage, there are plenty that wouldn’t stand out and it does seem it would be more in line with the idea of modesty to choose styles of cleavage covering shirts that don’t stand out if it is possible to do so rather than those that do.

While I don’t think its correct to say that one shouldn’t cover if they are the only one to cover, I think it does make a lot of sense to have people consider wearing head coverings which stand out less. And even with that, I’m not trying to claim that it is wrong to wear a mantilla if you are the only one wearing it, but it does seem as though it would be even more modest to wear a form of headcovering which does not stand out as much.

 

[catholicwife2]

I really don’t think sticking out/drawing attention to yourself for being reverent is that big of a deal. You can experience that with genuflecting, praying the rosary in church before Mass, staying in your pew after Mass longer when everybody else leaves, receiving Holy Communion on the tongue, etc.

I know for myself, the worry about sticking out/drawing attention to myself was not about wanting to be humble but rather about pride - imagine that! - because I didn’t want people to be uncharitably labeling me as holier-than-thou. I didn’t want people to think to themselves, “Oh, there goes that self-righteous hypocrite who thinks she is better than all of us because she’s covering her head.”

So I asked myself, am I really just worried that people will think badly of me? The answer was yes, and that was a really bad reason not to do it. My desire to cover my head (with a mantilla, even, because that’s what I liked) was born out of a desire to point to the fact that I am in a sacred place where God is truly present in the Eucharist… not out of a desire to make a point about myself.

So people will think things about me, like people do all the time with everything else. They will have an opinion - some good, some bad. I can’t control that. But, as I’ve seen elsewhere, “reverence never goes out of style.” The God of today is the same glorious God of the past, and it is not “too much” to want to show Him reverence. It may even do some good in this age when such a huge percentage of Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence.

 

[PetiteFoi]

What a GREAT look! Does Cammie have a website where these can be purchased? I would LOVE one…or two…or three or four.

Here’s Cammie’s snood website on etsy.
etsy.com/shop/asnoodforallseasons

 

[Kensho]

Wow – I wish I looked that pretty with my hair covered. But then I guess looking pretty is not the point, is in fact the opposite of the point.

I used to always wear a chapel veil. I was one of a handful of women who did it, and I never felt self-conscious even on the days that I was the only one because the parish I went to leaned traditional and was so supportive of practices like that. Now I go (because I have no choice) to a much more “modern” parish where nobody at all wears a veil or hat, and I am often the only woman wearing a skirt. I feel as though I already stand out, and I don’t know anyone, so I am embarrassed to wear a veil and be thought of as different. This is probably childish and I didn’t used to be like this – I wish I could get over it.

I’ve experimented with a couple of different options that didn’t scream “She’s covering her head!”, but they take time to put on, and I live so far from my parish that I usually don’t have time to do anything extra once I get dressed and feed everybody on Sunday morning.

 

[RedSoxWife]

See! That does change everything, you’re absolutely right!
See here’s an outfit I wore to church, I don’t feel like I look Amish, or like a chemo patient (imho)… Oh and credited to Cammie for her awesome snood I adore

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/Jendara/100_3091.jpg

Peace,
~ PetiteFoi

You looks so cute! I love the skirt and top combo and it’s perfect with the color of that snood (that’s one of my favorite fabrics! I made a skirt for myself out of it too!).

 

[RedSoxWife]

Think about it, though. I do think that, say, the women who go around in denim skirts and loose ruffled blouses are being immodest. Even if it’s their belief that they should be wearing that, there are better ways to do it. A maxi skirt, tank top, and shrug would provide the same modesty without drawing attention.

All that to say, it’s worth considering, and possibly worth choosing less showy options for head-coverings. Especially since the Catholic church does not consider head-coverings to be for the purpose of physical modesty in the way some other groups do, but a symbol of reverence and worship.

So… we now have a certain fashion standard that we have to live up to or we run the risk of being “immodest”? Sorry, I’m just not buying that. A lot of people don’t have money to spend to look like everybody in season in and season out. As someone who hasn’t had spending money to buy new clothes in the past… oh… five years, I do my best to put together outfits that have come from thrift stores, garage sales, and been handed down to me from friends and relatives who didn’t want them any longer. And I sew when I have extra fabric and extra time (the time thing’s the problem there). I’m probably not going to be winning any fashion awards with my thrifted and homemade wardrobe.

I do make an effort to look nice, but again, money constraints mean I don’t look like the other women in the mall when we go shopping (it probably doesn’t help that we live in a college town). But then again, a lot of the women I run into in the store look different. I see tons of Muslim women. I see Indian women. Are we all immodest for not embracing the college student uniform of leggings and boots that seem to be trendy at the moment?

I’m also not sure how a simple linen snood, which is what she’s wearing is “showy” when compared to many of the veils out there. I love veils. My favorite is a gold one from Lily. It’s beautiful. But I’m not sure it qualifies as “simple” either.

Sorry I just don’t see modesty as having to conform to what everyone else is wearing and follow the crowd. We don’t have to be frumpy, but often when we turn away from the worldly, we end up standing out, in a variety of ways whether we want to or not. These days I get way more stares for having three kids four and under out with me than for anything I’m wearing. Should I leave the kids in the car so I blend more?

 

[thewanderer]

So… we now have a certain fashion standard that we have to live up to or we run the risk of being “immodest”? Sorry, I’m just not buying that. A lot of people don’t have money to spend to look like everybody in season in and season out. As someone who hasn’t had spending money to buy new clothes in the past… oh… five years, I do my best to put together outfits that have come from thrift stores, garage sales, and been handed down to me from friends and relatives who didn’t want them any longer. And I sew when I have extra fabric and extra time (the time thing’s the problem there). I’m probably not going to be winning any fashion awards with my thrifted and homemade wardrobe.

I do make an effort to look nice, but again, money constraints mean I don’t look like the other women in the mall when we go shopping (it probably doesn’t help that we live in a college town). But then again, a lot of the women I run into in the store look different. I see tons of Muslim women. I see Indian women. Are we all immodest for not embracing the college student uniform of leggings and boots that seem to be trendy at the moment?

I’m also not sure how a simple linen snood, which is what she’s wearing is “showy” when compared to many of the veils out there. I love veils. My favorite is a gold one from Lily. It’s beautiful. But I’m not sure it qualifies as “simple” either.

Sorry I just don’t see modesty as having to conform to what everyone else is wearing and follow the crowd. We don’t have to be frumpy, but often when we turn away from the worldly, we end up standing out, in a variety of ways whether we want to or not. These days I get way more stares for having three kids four and under out with me than for anything I’m wearing. Should I leave the kids in the car so I blend more?

I really don’t think she is implying either that everyone needs to keep up with fashion trends or that the snood pictured is immodest. You can buy a mxi skirt, tank top and shrug from a thrift store just as easily as an oversized blouse and long denim skirt. I don’t think I’d be quite as insistent that it necessarily is immodest, but I do think that it can be so, or, at least, the attitude behind the person wearing it can be so. Not always, and we should never judge anyone personally, but its sometthing to think about.

 

[PetiteFoi]

You looks so cute! I love the skirt and top combo and it’s perfect with the color of that snood (that’s one of my favorite fabrics! I made a skirt for myself out of it too!).

It’s my favourite by far! That fabric is fantastic! I also own your white linen snood too - I keep meaning to check, do you have/sell the pattern?
Because like you, we’re on a bit of shoestring budget, and I’d way too happily break the bank buying your snoods!!

I really don’t think she is implying either that everyone needs to keep up with fashion trends or that the snood pictured is immodest. You can buy a mxi skirt, tank top and shrug from a thrift store just as easily as an oversized blouse and long denim skirt. I don’t think I’d be quite as insistent that it necessarily is immodest, but I do think that it can be so, or, at least, the attitude behind the person wearing it can be so. Not always, and we should never judge anyone personally, but its sometthing to think about.

Hm, see I think a denim skirt and flowy-shirt are completely innocuous.
That could easily be just “someone’s style” as opposed to “I’m dressing this way to be modest” - whereas, say, a Mennonite head-covering (which I also think are adorable!) are clearly a religions article of clothing.

I’ve had people in mini-skirts and halter tops stop me to ask where I got my “funky headscarf” so they could get one for themselves.

It’s on the line between being a religious article of clothing and a way to keep your hair back. Much like the red bandanna I throw on when I’m cleaning to keep my hair out of my face.

My snood may draw some attention, but I don’t believe its in a holier-than-thou way, it’s because it’s an awesome accessory.
If I’m wearing it in church and someone looks down on me for it - that’s not my problem; like you said, we cannot judge.

If it’s my conviction, aligns with scripture (y’know, no “i’m topless because I’m convicted” silliness) and harms no one - then I should not be made to feel that I’m being “showy” or “snobbish”.

“Judge not lest…” y’know.

Peace,
~ PetiteFoi

 

[thewanderer]

It’s my favourite by far! That fabric is fantastic! I also own your white linen snood too - I keep meaning to check, do you have/sell the pattern?
Because like you, we’re on a bit of shoestring budget, and I’d way too happily break the bank buying your snoods!!

Hm, see I think a denim skirt and flowy-shirt are completely innocuous.
That could easily be just “someone’s style” as opposed to “I’m dressing this way to be modest” - whereas, say, a Mennonite head-covering (which I also think are adorable!) are clearly a religions article of clothing.

I’ve had people in mini-skirts and halter tops stop me to ask where I got my “funky headscarf” so they could get one for themselves.

It’s on the line between being a religious article of clothing and a way to keep your hair back. Much like the red bandanna I throw on when I’m cleaning to keep my hair out of my face.

My snood may draw some attention, but I don’t believe its in a holier-than-thou way, it’s because it’s an awesome accessory.
If I’m wearing it in church and someone looks down on me for it - that’s not my problem; like you said, we cannot judge.

If it’s my conviction, aligns with scripture (y’know, no “i’m topless because I’m convicted” silliness) and harms no one - then I should not be made to feel that I’m being “showy” or “snobbish”.

“Judge not lest…” y’know.

Peace,
~ PetiteFoi

I’m not trying to say that anyone who wears headcoverings is being immodest. I thought I made an effort in my earlier posts to make it clear that that is not what I am saying. I realize this can be a touchy subject because there are people who pull out the "it makes you look ‘holier-than-thou’ line in order to try and stop people from wearing headcoverings and it is very wrong of them to do so. But that is not at all what I am trying to say. There is a balance here somewhere and I think it lies not so much in what a person does or doesn’t wear, but in their motivations for doing so. Which is why I said that I agree with what DarkLight was saying, with a qualifier, that it is not always true, and, I would even say isn’t even mostly true, but it can be the case that someone is wearing headcoverings or dressing in an overly-frumpy manner etc for the wrong reasons.

I really don’t understand why you are responding so harshly when you are the one who brought this up as a possiblity in the first place to be talked about. I am just trying to add a couple of thoughts to the conversation that I thought you wanted to have.

Also, just in case you were wondering I was not in any way refering to an outfit like the one you posted, that is very modest yet put together at the same time.

 

[Catholic_Wife]

Think about it, though. I do think that, say, the women who go around in denim skirts and loose ruffled blouses are being immodest. Even if it’s their belief that they should be wearing that, there are better ways to do it. A maxi skirt, tank top, and shrug would provide the same modesty without drawing attention.

All that to say, it’s worth considering, and possibly worth choosing less showy options for head-coverings. Especially since the Catholic church does not consider head-coverings to be for the purpose of physical modesty in the way some other groups do, but a symbol of reverence and worship.
One can dress modestly without wearing a denim skirt and/or loose ruffled blouse. This is a poor stereotype of modest dress! Then again, you would probably say I fit the stereotype in my cotton blend mid-calf skirts and blouses that fall much more nicely over my fat rolls and is much more flattering on me and any maxi skirt or dress will ever be

While I don’t think its correct to say that one shouldn’t cover if they are the only one to cover, I think it does make a lot of sense to have people consider wearing head coverings which stand out less. And even with that, I’m not trying to claim that it is wrong to wear a mantilla if you are the only one wearing it, but it does seem as though it would be even more

modest to wear a form of headcovering which does not stand out as much.
Please, share photos and/or websites where we can find what you consider to be a form of headcovering that does not stand out as much. No matter what form of headcovering you wear - even hats - you will stand out if you are the only one wearing a headcovering.

Also, just in case you were wondering I was not in any way refering to an outfit like the one you posted, that is very modest yet put together at the same time.

That outfit is typical of the outfits women who dress modestly around here wear. No denim. No looseness or ruffles (but I do love the lace!). Just simple styles with simple lines and simple, sturdy fabrics.

 

[Kensho]

Maybe I missed something, but what’s wrong with denim skirts and ruffled blouses? Those are such broad descriptors that two women could be wearing denim skirts and ruffled blouses and have completely different styles, with one looking dowdy and the other looking fashionable.

I gather that these are being held up as an example of “frumpy” clothing, which surprises me because I thought the Frumpy Modest uniform was a long, loose denim jumper over a turtleneck. And in many places, a woman wearing such a uniform wouldn’t stand out at all, so while we may not appreciate her clothing choice from an aesthetic standpoint, it wouldn’t make sense to say that she was being “immodest” by looking different.

To those who are saying that you can buy a shrug, etc. at the thrift store just as easily as the denim skirt combo: That depends on where you live. Where I live, I’m lucky if I can find something that isn’t a polyester sack. And some of us are getting a little too long in the tooth to wear shrugs and maxis credibly anyway.

I think it would be useful if women who wanted to be modest at Mass had some sort of “uniform” of somewhat formal but inconspicuous clothing such as men have, the equivalent of a conservative suit and tie. I have been trying to achieve something like this by wearing nondescript plain dark dresses, but they don’t look pretty at all and I admit that makes me unhappy. I want to look “nice” in the same way a man in a good suit looks nice. His attire does not call attention to him, but he looks dressed-up and appropriate.

OP, would it be possible for you to take a picture of the snood alone, untied, so I can get an idea of how it’s put together? And what is the fabric like – the texture, I mean? I’ve had no end of difficulty with headscarves and my crocheted snood because they slide right off, and I’m thinking I need a different kind of fabric.

 

[Catholic_Wife]

Maybe I missed something, but what’s wrong with denim skirts and ruffled blouses?

Those are such broad descriptors that two women could be wearing denim skirts and ruffled blouses and have completely different styles, with one looking dowdy and the other looking fashionable.

I gather that these are being held up as an example of “frumpy” clothing, which surprises me because I thought the Frumpy Modest uniform was a long, loose denim jumper over a turtleneck. And in many places, a woman wearing such a uniform wouldn’t stand out at all, so while we may not appreciate her clothing choice from an aesthetic standpoint, it wouldn’t make sense to say that she was being “immodest” by looking different.
Yes, they are. Don’t forget you can wear a t-shirt under that jumper in the warmer months.

To those who are saying that you can buy a shrug, etc. at the thrift store just as easily as the denim skirt combo: That depends on where you live. Where I live, I’m lucky if I can find something that isn’t a polyester sack. And some of us are getting a little too long in the tooth to wear shrugs and maxis credibly anyway

.
Yes, we are … but they will understand some day.

I think it would be useful if women who wanted to be modest at Mass had some sort of “uniform” of somewhat formal but inconspicuous clothing such as men have, the equivalent of a conservative suit and tie.

I have been trying to achieve something like this by wearing nondescript plain dark dresses, but they don’t look pretty at all and I admit that makes me unhappy. I want to look “nice” in the same way a man in a good suit looks nice. His attire does not call attention to him, but he looks dressed-up and appropriate.
I don’t about this - I like being colorful. Maybe wear something like a below knee skirt and white button-front shirt with either a jacket or cardigan? Or maybe something like this? Or this?

THIS is similar to my summer look (only my skirts all go past my knees and my tops are a cotton blend). The look on the right in the middle is similar to my winter look.

OP, would it be possible for you to take a picture of the snood alone, untied, so I can get an idea of how it’s put together? And what is the fabric like – the texture, I mean? I’ve had no end of difficulty with headscarves and my crocheted snood because they slide right off, and I’m thinking I need a different kind of fabric.

The person who made the snood has patterns for sale:
Patterns