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Walking_Home
Guest
Actually it isn’t. Our late Pope’s papacy has been well documented. His life, travels, speeches, audiences, etc, – yet within all this – his “supposed” speaking in tongues is lacking.
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Actually it isn’t. Our late Pope’s papacy has been well documented. His life, travels, speeches, audiences, etc, – yet within all this – his “supposed” speaking in tongues is lacking.
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palmas85
Guest
Not something of this magnitude. As I said, if he had really done this thing, don’t you think the movement would have been all over it in order to further legitimize itself?
Hey the Holy Father told us he prayed the Rosary, did it often and advised others to do it. He told us that he had a deep undying devotion to the Blessed Mother and promoted it vigorously. He spoke to us of many things that he did in his own devotional life including the humbling fact that he often confessed more than once or twice a week
Not once, not ever in any way shape or form, did he claim, mention or even intimate that he prayed or spoke in tongues. That speaks volumes considering how open he was with his other devotional practices. Why hide this one? One word from him, that he did this thing and the movement would have exploded with new members flocking to the events. It would have given the movement all the legitimacy that it needed and would have actually convinced many doubters that there was some validity to it given his charisma, his personal integrity, honesty and forthrightness.
But he didn’t. Not once. Not ever. And I think that really says it all.
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palmas85
Guest
I don’t quote them or present their statements as facts unless I know that they are indeed true.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
You verify everything they say in case you have a need to quote them?
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palmas85
Guest
Why would I present something as a fact unless I know that it is?
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Given that the assumptions are always it is one of the many languages he spoke then others probably did hear him and preferred to think it was something else.
Unless YOU were there you are just guessing there is no proof.
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palmas85
Guest
Fine. Then present the proof.
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Markstorm
Guest
Prove A.
- You cannot prove that I can’t prove A
- Therefore A
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Walking_Home
Guest
Good try — but still —lacking.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
So much of that goes to the problems with demands of ‘proof’ for what people experience.
Even if I heard him myself as he prayed and could quote a time, date, place etc there are others who would refuse to accept the firsthand account as it would be without ‘proof’ to back it up as it would be ‘only’ my word.
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Markstorm
Guest
Exactly.
Now you see why “my friend told me that he heard x” isn’t very persuasive.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Not persuasive perhaps but should the person be lumped into the liar category?Exactly.
Now you see why “my friend told me that he heard x” isn’t very persuasive.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Proof for many things has been assumed not to be there - mainly because others did not recognize them for what they were or did not think they were important enough to report on.
Not enough reason to call others liars over.
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Markstorm
Guest
Walking_Home isn’t just refusing to recognize a proof. The problem is that you have failed to provide proof.
I’m not calling you a liar. I will say, though, that any reasonable person would be fully justified in not believing what you have to say about our late Holy Father. In fact, if “my friend told me that he heard this” actually convinces anyone, I would be very worried.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
There is no reason to think my friend lied to me, no reason to think I am lying here.
I wonder how many apply this same standard to other areas like the sun dancing at Fatima.
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palmas85
Guest
I notice that you have failed to address the utterly inescapable fact that the Holy Father, an admittedly open man of great integrity and great personal holiness, never, ever, not once made a claim of his speaking in or praying tongues or even intimated that he did. That when he often spoke of his other devotional practices. I would think such a great gift bestowed upon him would have been spoken or at least written about. He spoke and wrote about almost everything else.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
I did not say you called me a liar.
I am wondering though - how many stories of faith should we toss out the window because all we have is ‘my friend to me’ or ‘I saw/heard’ without the kind of documentation some want?
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Markstorm
Guest
Untrue. Your friend may be lying to push the Charismatic agenda. You may be lying for the same reason because I know relatively little about you. Why should I assume otherwise?
If you think that hearsay constitutes proof, then perhaps reasonable discussion just isn’t for you.
I don’t know about you, but I actually don’t base much of my faith at all on stories I read on internet forums that have not been corroborated.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Benefit of the doubt mean nothing here?
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Markstorm
Guest
Benefit of the doubt is usually given if:
- There is a very good reason to believe the source (in this case sources), for example if their claims have been corroborated time and time again. You cannot demand benefit of the doubt when you make a hearsay claim out of the blue.
- The issue is so minor that no one cares. In the case of whether certain Masses should be offered, which is liturgical practice, the issue is something that is quite significant. This is especially true when you’re trying to prove that a Pope has put his authority behind it.
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