Specific Church Teaching on Gender Transitioning?

[OraLabora]

She means a lot to me and I pray for her, but this is an issue that…I’m at a loss, but of course the only thing I’m sure of is even if she does have surgery or tells me I’m still here friend, etc, even though I don’t want her to take that road.

Ultimately, that is all we can do: pray for them, and continue to love them.

No mistake is unforgivable to God. We should never shut the door to people we think are making mistakes, nor should we stop loving them.

And here I have a confession to make: I am the father of a transgendered child and will continue to love her and welcome her in my home with open arms. I won’t go into details but I will say two things: one, theorizing about it on an anonymous forum, and having it in your face are entirely different matters. And two, with the state of today’s medical and psychiatric art, it is virtually impossible for a transgendered person to be happy in his or her birth gender role. I have known my child was profoundly unhappy for some time before coming out, and in a way was relieved to find out why. Like any parent I want my child to be happy (she is an adult btw).

The Church holds that unambiguously having DNA and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex and yet presenting oneself as not belonging to that sex whatsoever because of a psychological disaffection with that part of oneself is a different matter, even if that disaffection has an organic origin unfortunately beyond the patient’s control.

That’s no different than telling someone with cancer that will result in genital mutilation, that they have to live with their condition and die instead of seeking a mutilating treatment. For many transgendered, presenting as birth sex is a death sentence. For some, in the real physical sense, and for others, an inner death that forces them out to the margins of society.

The Church needs to do better than this.

 

[PetraG]

That’s no different than telling someone with cancer that will result in genital mutilation, that they have to live with their condition and die instead of seeking a mutilating treatment. For many transgendered, presenting as birth sex is a death sentence. For some, in the real physical sense, and for others, an inner death that forces them out to the margins of society.

The Church needs to do better than this.

Are you saying that encouraging people to live a false life is the only way to keep them from killing themselves?

The Church does not hold to the dualism that says that self-concept is the truth and the body is a piece of property that one may change to suit one’s interior self-concept. Regardless of how deep-seated a self-concept that is contrary to one’s body may be, our bodies belong to our reality. It is a treatment to repair parts that do not function property or even, in severe cases, to remove parts that are a reservoir of a deadly disease. The secondary sexual characteristics of a person with gender dysphoria, however, are not a reservoir of disease.

Besides, where does this end? There are people with species dysphoria, for heaven’s sake. Can I cope with just leaving someone alone who has known since she was nine years old that she’s a wolf and who self-identifies as non-human. Sure. Is it moral for them to have their bodies altered to look more like animals? No. These, too, are usually people who have always “known” they are different. They do not see this as a mental illness or a coping mechamism but as their identity. Are they really not human beings? In the slightest way, are they actually not human? No. They are 100% human, regardless of their self-concept. Do I think that it is plausible that sexual self-concept could be altered because of hormonal conditions in the womb? Sure. That doesn’t mean that the person’s physical sex is wrong. It means they have a deep-seated unease with their actual identity that has an organic cause that cannot be treated directly.

 

[OraLabora]

What is your evidence that such a serious surgery is usually more effective than no surgery at all in lowering the long-term morbidity and mortality of people with this affliction? You can’t be subjecting people to such serious medical intervention without a clear indication that the treatment is (a) effective and (b) the same or a similar outcome cannot be achieved with a less drastic intervention. Medicine needs to hold itself to that standard.

One, there are standards of care, and two, there are good outcomes. Because some outcomes are bad, does not mean all will be bad, just as some cancer treatments are effective for some people but not for others.

 

[StephieNorthCo]

Actually, to get some indication for what standards of care, and what evidence exists, you might want to study

Https://www.wpath.org

There are many things to consider. Many of them are indeed outlined. You might just find that, although the medical science in that field is still emerging, medicine is indeed trying to hold itself to a professional standard.

 

[PetraG]

Actually, to get some indication for what standards of care, and what evidence exists, you might want to study

Https://www.wpath.org

There are many things to consider. Many of them are indeed outlined. You might just find that, although the medical science in that field is still emerging, medicine is indeed trying to hold itself to a professional standard.

I am not saying that medicine isn’t trying to hold itself to a standard of care, but that I doubt the contention that withholding surgery to remove healthy body parts in order that the patient’s body will more closely conform to their self-image is a “death sentence.” I actually think this kind of rhetoric encourages people with gender dysphoria who don’t get the surgery to think that suicide is a rational response to their plight. That is what is meant by a “death sentence.” It isn’t that the external physical features pose a threat, as a tumor would. What is meant is that it is feared that if the person doesn’t have surgery they are going to be driven to kill themselves, that not being able to get the surgery they want is going to force them to kill themselves. This, even though it is maintained that gender dysphoria is not a mental disorder!

That is not a responsible way to talk about this issue, and it does not make sense.

 

[PetraG]

Androgenization of the brain? Hmmm. Not quite sure if that’s real, but I’ll wait and see research comes up with. I’m wondering if neurons are male and female.

It could be real, and it doesn’t make the person’s perfectly healthy physical body false or wrong.

I don’t really know what to say, I’m at a loss. I’m just marking my place here. I have a very close friend of mine that I’m sure is trans (she hasn’t told me, but has other friends that call her “he”, and has another name she uses. I guess she assumes I don’t notice, who knows.) She means a lot to me and I pray for her, but this is an issue that…I’m at a loss, but of course the only thing I’m sure of is even if she does have surgery or tells me I’m still here friend, etc, even though I don’t want her to take that road.

I have friends inside and outside the Church who make all sorts of important life decisions based on logic that the Church would find an anathema. The way I see it, it is only a spiritual work of mercy to instruct the ignorant when people really are ignorant of what the Church teaches and unaware that I agree with what the Church teaches. It is only a spiritual work of mercy to admonish sinners when there is some chance they are going to receive the admonishment as a work of mercy and repent.

Otherwise, there are times when prudential judgment says that there is no point in stirring up strife. When I’m asked, I try to tell the truth as the Church teaches it to the best of my ability. When I’m not asked, there is no sin in minding my own business and often it would be at least unwise to do otherwise. Christians are not told to go out into the world stirring up trouble with the World. If we confine ourselves to those who are considered brothers and sisters within the Church, we will be saying plenty as it is.

 

[OraLabora]

I am not saying that medicine isn’t trying to hold itself to a standard of care, but that I doubt the contention that withholding surgery to remove healthy body parts in order that the patient’s body will more closely conform to their self-image is a “death sentence.” I actually think this kind of rhetoric encourages people with gender dysphoria who don’t get the surgery to think that suicide is a rational response to their plight. That is what is meant by a “death sentence.” It isn’t that the external physical features pose a threat, as a tumor would. What is meant is that it is feared that if the person doesn’t have surgery they are going to be driven to kill themselves, that not being able to get the surgery they want is going to force them to kill themselves. This, even though it is maintained that gender dysphoria is not a mental disorder!

That is not a responsible way to talk about this issue, and it does not make sense.

This is nonsense. There are many people driven to suicide by mental health issues, for instance those with post-traumatic stress disorder. Others are driven by physical health issues, such as physical chronic pain.

There is no question that some transgendered are driven to suicide. And I am absolutely convince that all transgendered are deeply unhappy in their birth state. Saying this does not “encourage” anyone to suicide, it encourages professionals to find solutions.

The job of the health care professional is to properly discern, and adapt the treatment to the patient. For that reason, standards of care have been developed.

I agree that any treatment has to be ethical, preferably informed by Catholic Christian standards, but in reverse, the Church also has a duty to inform herself of the science.

 

[StephieNorthCo]

I encourage you to actually review the information on that link. I think you find that in some cases, surgery is contra-indicated. In other cases, it is not sure, at the current state of the art, what the proper treatment is. In other cases, indeed it is a death sentence to withhold surgery. My sister was a few hours from death without killing off the testosterone. She didn’t have to kill herself, the medical condition was doing that for her.

Prior to that, she did try to kill herself, because no one wanted to believe she was anything but a male. It was only when her body rebelled, and her uterus went into violent contractions. Couldn’t handle the testosterone.

No, true, she was intersex, but as I mentioned upthread, some transgender ARE either extreme transsexual or intersex, both of which are best treated by surgery.

 

[PetraG]

This is nonsense. There are many people driven to suicide by mental health issues, for instance those with post-traumatic stress disorder. Others are driven by physical health issues, such as physical chronic pain.

There is no question that some transgendered are driven to suicide. And I am absolutely convince that all transgendered are deeply unhappy in their birth state. Saying this does not “encourage” anyone to suicide, it encourages professionals to find solutions.

Finding solutions does not mean falsifying identities. We do not treat deep-seated dissatisfaction with the truth by convincing the patient that there is no reason to be ill at ease because they are right and reality is false. Can you think of a single other kind of deep-seated anxiety about reality that is treated by changing the patient’s world so they can convince themselves that their inner sense of reality is true and the physical facts are false? Why is that this is the one case where compassion requires denying the truth?

You said:

And two, with the state of today’s medical and psychiatric art, it is virtually impossible for a transgendered person to be happy in his or her birth gender role

and

For many transgendered, presenting as birth sex is a death sentence

What can you mean by “presenting as birth sex is a death sentence”? You didn’t say “it feels like a death sentence” and you didn’t say it could be dangerous. You wrote that for many transgendered, it is a death sentence.

I don’t know how to interpret what you said except that you are implying that they are driven to suicide and you are blaming the Church for failing to capitulate and say that a person’s sex can be changed by medical treatment when it can’t. You all but said that the choice is either to concede that their physical sex is wrong and dangerous to their well-being or else bear the responsibility when they are driven to kill themselves.

 

[OraLabora]

I don’t know how to interpret what you said except that you are implying that they are driven to suicide and you are blaming the Church for failing to capitulate and say that a person’s sex can be changed by medical treatment when it can’t.

Nobody is claiming that the person’s gender is being altered by surgery. What is altered is the body’s appearance to conform to the inner perception, and the gender role. What is offered is a treatment, not a cure. Just like some other treatments don’t cure, they help to cope with a condition (for example medication for chronic pain), so too is surgery in some cases something that helps the patient cope with their condition. I agree with Stephie, please read the link she provided. The sections in differentiating between gender non-conformity, and gender dysphoria (a medical condition) might be helpful.

What the Church needs to consider is the well-being of the patient. She is right to push for better, non-mutilating treatments, but wrong to deny the best treatments we have available today, if it helps the patient’s well-being, and even if they fall very short of the ideal,.

 

[PetraG]

No, true, she was intersex, but as I mentioned upthread, some transgender ARE either extreme transsexual or intersex, both of which are best treated by surgery.

Transgender and intersex can overlap, but they are two distinct things. It is possible for sexual ambiguity to be a physical fact. It is also possible for sexual dysphoria to arise in the absence of bodily ambiguity.

The Church will allow changing a baptismal certificiate when it actually was incorrect in the first place. What the Church does not allow is the pretense that a surgeon can change a male into a female or vice versa.

 

[Spyridon]

I could simply never be alright with “gender reassignment” surgery.

If I had to choose between someone having their penis chopped off and them going and jumping off a bridge, I would have to just trust in the mercy of God. I wouldn’t be able to be okay with either choice, so I’d just cry out “Lord, have mercy.”

 

[StephieNorthCo]

Actually, neither could i. However, gender corrective surgery is a different matter. It is simply not possible to turn one sex into the other. Corrective surgery does not do that.

 

[PetraG]

Nobody is claiming that the person’s gender is being altered by surgery.

Transgender birth certificate – Transgender Map

www.transgendermap.com

They call it a sex change and they go to the state and have their birth certificates altered to indicate they were born the opposite sex, so I find it hard to believe that no one believes that transitioning literally changes the person’s sex. Gender? Well, who knows, because that has become a concept that must be held to be “fluid” by anyone who really understands the concept in an adult sense.

Again, I have seen a theologian opine that that it is moral to allow a surgery to remove a healthy body part because a mentally ill person is so driven to try to remove it themselves that the patient would surely kill themselves trying if they were not immobilized. That is not the same as agreeing that the patient’s self-image is true, the body they were born with is false, and that the actual sex of the person is other than the sex of their body.

 

[Spyridon]

However, gender corrective surgery is a different matt

Does that entail genital mutilation?

If so, I could never support it.

 

[OraLabora]

I meant that nobody here is making that claim.

 

[StephieNorthCo]

Let me see if I understand your position by example. My sister has a uterus. That’s inside, right? You can’t see it right? She HAD testes. They produced testosterone. You can see testes. Right? The uterus couldn’t handle it. Without removing the testes, she would have died.

Do I have it right that she should have been murdered to prevent mutilation of her testes?

 

[PetraG]

Let me see if I understand your position by example. My sister has a uterus. That’s inside, right? You can’t see it right? She HAD testes. They produced testosterone. You can see testes. Right? The uterus couldn’t handle it. Without removing the testes, she would have died.

Do I have it right that she should have been murdered to prevent mutilation of her testes?

First of all, someone whose sex actually is ambiguous is a different case than sexual dysphoria.

Secondly, someone whose organs are producing a disease state in the patient or which cause the body to attack itself is a different case, as well. The example you gave is not a surgery performed solely to further the pretense that the surgery changes the patient’s sex.

It is a treatment to repair parts that do not function property or even, in severe cases, to remove parts that are a reservoir of a deadly disease.

By the way, if a surgeon fails to perform a life-saving surgery, that is not a murder. Murder requires an act of killing with malice aforethought. That does not mean a physician might not be responsible for a death by a failure to treat, but that the failure is not a murder and not everyone responsible for failing to prevent a death is a murderer.

Does that entail genital mutilation?

If so, I could never support it.

People can have a wide range of abnormalities of the genitalia that can be corrected by surgery. These don’t constitute mutilation any more than repairing a cleft lip is a mutilation.

 

[StephieNorthCo]

You are right. That’s why is corrective surgery. I have said several times in this thread that you can’t change gender. Ain’t gonna happen. But there are some transgender that fit this scenario as well. That is why the LGBTletters contingent is such a bad influence, as I also stated above.

Those people thinking they are changing gender are being fooled, and fooling themselves. That’s the group who later regret it.

I also have no beef with Michael. He’s usually spot on. But what you and he are coming across as trying to generalize in this area, and you simply cant. It’s way too complex. Some people just have no external idea there’s an internal problem. They know there is one, but can’t quite figure it out.

Still, there are some who require full surgery to be healthy and to give them relief from mental snguish.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

If there is any sin surely it’s the convincing of vulnerable people that they can change their sex through surgery or just dressing differently.

Obviously with intersex conditions I imagine its a case of doing the best you can with the body the person has and what current medicine can do.