Sperm analysis

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Again, the ONLY way to test your sperm completely without intercourse is through a masturbation
You could aways save your underwear after you have a wet dream.
If masturbation is the only way, the answer is not to get tested until after marriage, which is when it actually matters.

Would Jesus or St Paul say “it’s okay to sin so you can get your sperm tested before marriage instead of after”? No way!
 
Incorrect. One can not masturbate for any reason, it is sinful.

If a man needs to collect semen for analysis, the morally licit way is through intercourse with his wife using a perforated condom. They need to be special medical condome that contain no spermicide or lubricant.

Making tiny perforations, with a pin, will allow some sperm through, to maintain the procreative nature of the act. Most of the semen will be collected, and can be taken to a lab for analysis.

God Bless
Wow ! I have worked in healthcare for many years and have NEVER heard such suggestions and opinions on this topic.
Many times the reason for sperm analysis is indeed a question of fertility. HOWEVER, many many times it is done following a vasectomy.
There is no need for a "medical " condom.Lubricant and spermacidal free condoms are available over the counter in most pharmacies.
I would suggest that if sperm is forced through tiny pinholes, they may or may not be viable and so may not allow for an accurate analysis.The analysis also takes into consideration the number of sperm in an ejaculation. If some are left behind in the condom or elsewhere, again the results may not be accurate.Even the shape of each sperm is taken into consideration during the analysis, some may be injured via the pinholes.
If we read on to following threads on this issue, it refers to masturbation as a MORTAL sin. Is that correct? I really did not know it was a MORTAL sin.
One would have to be EXTREMELY well organized to collect a sperm sample via nocturnal emission as is suggested later on in this thread.NLM
 
@nlm: Well, technically, no sin can be mortal in and of itself. An act can be intrinsically a grave evil, which means that to commit it is automatically a serious sin, but to rise to the level of a mortal sin, all three elements must be present: (1) grave evil, (2) full consent of the free will, (3) full knowledge of the action’s evil.

What exactly is meant be “full” in “full consent” and “full knowledge” (and, indeed, whether those conditions are even possible – or, at the opposite end of the spectrum, ineveitable) has been debated for centuries, and is likely to continue for centuries more until some genius thinker finally figures out free will.

However, yes, masturbation is a grave evil, so it’s got at least one component of mortal sin. If you’ve done it without knowing it was a grave evil, then your sin, though serious, could not be mortal.

On another point, I’m pretty sure that it’s the semen left inside the perforated condom that’s collected, not the semen that’s been forced through the pinholes. So the integrity should be fine. I had a friend who did this while trying to diagnose fertility problems, and it went okay (turned out his sperm count was just very, very low).

And, yes, this idea of perforated condoms does strike a modern mind as a very convoluted way of going about things. All I can say in the space I have left is that the Church, alone among religions today (including atheism), thinks that we are not mere bodies or even souls inhabiting bodies, but complete beings consisting of soul and body alike. Therefore it sees what we do with our bodies as being very, very, very important, and, with this system of belief, some physical acts (like masturbation or self-induced vomiting), regardless of intention, turn out to be always wrong. Once that’s a given, you end up in peculiar circumstances like this one, and convolution ensues. It’s queer at first, but in the end it makes sense.

And it has the added benefit of being true. 😛

Hope that helps.
 
You could aways save your underwear after you have a wet dream.
And the lab would give it back to you, completely disgusted.

Been there - done that. You would not believe what people would try to bring in for this. We even got envelopes from a prison with filled condoms. :rolleyes:

It all goes in the trash.

~Liza
 
Masturbation is always unethical often seems to me to miss the point. Self pleasure is not unitive. Even mutual self pleasuring is not unitive. But a medical procedure is not aimed at self pleasure, in which self pleasure (if it exists at all) is an unintentional consequence, does not seem any worse that a medical procedure to save the mother than unintentionally terminated pregnancy.

hat said, perhaps electro is the solution, preferated condoms just seems like a legal cop out that is about as un-unive as I can imagine.

oh, I am not ccinadr, using dw’s computer.
 
I would suggest that if sperm is forced through tiny pinholes, they may or may not be viable and so may not allow for an accurate analysis
I think those are so it’s still open to life, and the rest stays inside the condom to be turned in to the doctor.
And the lab would give it back to you, completely disgusted.
Wring the underwear out over a jar then? Just wait until you’re married and not have to choose between jumping through hoops and marching towards hell?
 
But a medical procedure is not aimed at self pleasure, in which self pleasure (if it exists at all) is an unintentional consequence, does not seem any worse.
I agree.
Masturbation is sinful as search of self-pleasure. It is not this case.
 
I agree.
Masturbation is sinful as search of self-pleasure. It is not this case.
Thing is, the Church - God’s Church - does not add in the qualifier you tack on.

Masturbation is sinful. That is a period. No amount of good intent can turn a gravely disoredred thing into something that is not sin. You can dress a pig up in a ballgown, it is still a pig.

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2352.htm

**2352 **By *masturbation *is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."
 
Thing is, the Church - God’s Church - does not add in the qualifier you tack on.

Masturbation is sinful. That is a period. No amount of good intent can turn a gravely disoredred thing into something that is not sin. You can dress a pig up in a ballgown, it is still a pig.

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2352.htm

**2352 **By *masturbation *is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."
However, when it’s for MEDICAL reasons it’s NOT for sexual pleasure. There is a REAL difference here. Let’s push the enveloppe a bit. Sodomy is a sin…no doubt about it.It is also against the law. If we look at the definition of the word which we will not, here, then using some of the logic being used in these threads would mean that a medically necessary digital rectal examination is a sin and against the law.According to the literature, some experience great sexual pleasure in this type of practice but let me tell you there is absolutely NO sexual pleasre involved when done for medical reasons. MY OPINION is that one must live by the rules BUT must also add a measure of common sense. As I said yesterday,semen analysis are done daily for post-vasectomy patients so another sin has been comitted prior to this one.NO, two wrongs don’t make a right .Vasectomies are performed many times a day to men of ALL denominations and of NO religious affiliations. While a member of the RCC, I witnessed NUMEROUS fellow church members consent to this procedure.NLM
 
**2352 **By *masturbation *is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."
Well that settles it then doesn’t it? This definition of masturbation doesn’t apply to masturbating for sperm analysis.
 
However, when it’s for MEDICAL reasons it’s NOT for sexual pleasure. There is a REAL difference here. Let’s push the enveloppe a bit. Sodomy is a sin…no doubt about it.It is also against the law. If we look at the definition of the word which we will not, here, then using some of the logic being used in these threads would mean that a medically necessary digital rectal examination is a sin and against the law.According to the literature, some experience great sexual pleasure in this type of practice but let me tell you there is absolutely NO sexual pleasre involved when done for medical reasons. MY OPINION is that one must live by the rules BUT must also add a measure of common sense. As I said yesterday,semen analysis are done daily for post-vasectomy patients so another sin has been comitted prior to this one.NO, two wrongs don’t make a right .Vasectomies are performed many times a day to men of ALL denominations and of NO religious affiliations. While a member of the RCC, I witnessed NUMEROUS fellow church members consent to this procedure.NLM
Where in the CCC did it say, “only to derive sexual pleasure”? It didn’t. No matter how you put it pleasure is still going to be a product of the stimulation. If the church felt it needed to make an exception for a medical reason, it would have clearly stated. As for the last statement, I feel it is sad a lot of them are ignorant of the chuches teaching.
 
Where in the CCC did it say, “only to derive sexual pleasure”? It didn’t. No matter how you put it pleasure is still going to be a product of the stimulation. If the church felt it needed to make an exception for a medical reason, it would have clearly stated. As for the last statement, I feel it is sad a lot of them are ignorant of the chuches teaching.
It all comes down to selfishness and lack of obedience. Someone who wishes to live life THEIR way, and not be obedient to the Church will find any little way to try to circumvent, find a loophole, manipulate words, and just flat out ignore Church teaching.

At the end of the day it is humility and obedience and acceptance of God’s will. And folks just don’t want to go there. Whatcha gonna do? 🤷 Pray for them I suppose - because they just don’t seem to get it.

~Liza
 
Where in the CCC did it say, “only to derive sexual pleasure”? It didn’t. No matter how you put it pleasure is still going to be a product of the stimulation. If the church felt it needed to make an exception for a medical reason, it would have clearly stated. As for the last statement, I feel it is sad a lot of them are ignorant of the chuches teaching.
I would suggest that those whom I refer to in the last portion of my thread are NOT
," ignorant of the church’s teachings". They are actually well versed in them BUT must make decisions which affect the reality of THEIR lives.Having 15 or 20 children today just does not make sense. Yes, they vowed to accept the children God would send them on their wedding day, however ,there are also the realities of life which can’t be ignored. The RCC is like our denomination ( I can’t speak for all denominations) made up of people who are less than perfect and who do the best they can on their daily walk.With that comes choices each one of us must make AND live with today and for eternity.
You are correct the word," only " is not in that quote from the CCC.However it leaves very little to misinterpretation as it is written.NLM
 
If it truly wasn’t for pleasure why not just wait until you’re married? The fact alone that they came up with the “pinhole condom” idea shows that masturbation is considered immoral for this purpose.
They are actually well versed in them BUT must make decisions which affect the reality of THEIR lives.Having 15 or 20 children today just does not make sense.
Having 15 or 20 children is not a requirement. That’s not even relevant, this thread is actually about a way to have more kids.
 
However, when it’s for MEDICAL reasons it’s NOT for sexual pleasure. There is a REAL difference here. Let’s push the enveloppe a bit. Sodomy is a sin…no doubt about it.It is also against the law. If we look at the definition of the word which we will not, here, then using some of the logic being used in these threads would mean that a medically necessary digital rectal examination is a sin and against the law.According to the literature, some experience great sexual pleasure in this type of practice but let me tell you there is absolutely NO sexual pleasre involved when done for medical reasons. MY OPINION is that one must live by the rules BUT must also add a measure of common sense. As I said yesterday,semen analysis are done daily for post-vasectomy patients so another sin has been comitted prior to this one.NO, two wrongs don’t make a right .Vasectomies are performed many times a day to men of ALL denominations and of NO religious affiliations. While a member of the RCC, I witnessed NUMEROUS fellow church members consent to this procedure.NLM
It is a misuse of sexual organs whether for pleasure or a medical procedure. Intrinsically disordered. Sexual organs are for the marital act.
 
NLM makes a good point here, and it’s one I’ve wondered about from time to time myself. I think ultimately he’s wrong, but let’s not dismiss him so easily.

Masturbation is always wrong. I grant this freely and eagerly. I think most everyone in this conversation does. We are most of us faithful, loyal, Magisterium-following Catholics. I certainly am.

However, according to the Church, “By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure.” This is the Church’s official and complete definition of masturbation. Anything that falls within that category is masturbation. Anything that falls outside that category is not.

Deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to wash them is not masturbation.

Deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to aim urine in the right direction despite an unruly organ is not masturbation.

So is deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to accomplish a legitimate medical objective masturbation?

It seems to me that the immediately obvious answer is no. Thus, perfect obedience to the Church could allow or even require deliberate stimulation of the male genitals to the point of ejaculation in particular circumstances, so long as the object is not sexual pleasure.

Take another example: the Church has rules on killing. Namely, it is always wrong to intentionally kill another human being. Full stop. “2263. The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing.” However, we have a principle, derived from Aquinas, called double effect: an act with evil consequences can be legitimate if the object and intent of the act (they’re two different things, by the way) are legitimate, while the evil consequences, though foreseen, do not outweigh the good and are not a means to the good. This is why we are able to kill in self-defense and in war: we act legitimately to disable our assailant, and this disabling can (and, in war, very usually does) end in his death. But the killing, for a Catholic, must not be the object, but merely a foreseen consequence of an act taken for the legitimate aims of self-defense.

The classic example for double effect is that of the ectopic pregnancy. The direct killing of an unborn child is always wrong. Full stop. But in an ectopic pregnancy, the baby ends up in the wall of the Fallopian tube instead of the uterus. Both mother and child will die without intervention, and the child is too young to survive outside the womb. God does not allow abortion, for this would be murder. (The intent might be to save the mother, but the object of the action of taking a knife to a small child and cutting it into pieces is to kill the child. Killing the child is a means to the end of saving the mother, and therefore does not pass the double effect “test”.) However, surgical removal of the fallopian tube itself is permissible. This action has the intent of saving the mother (a good aim), the object of removing an organ (a morally neutral object), and the foreseen consequence of the child’s likely death – a terrible evil, but one which could not be avoided, and which here is partially offset by the fact that the mother will likely live. And, if the child does beat the odds and live, so much the better! The object was never to kill the baby, and the baby’s fate – like that of the wounded soldier – is left in God’s hands, not man’s.

And so we come back to the question before us. Is deliberate stimulation of the genital organs as part of a medical test masturbation? The intent is a great good – these medical tests do help couples solve medical problems that are preventing the natural and powerfully good fecundity of marriage. Is the object the emission of semen – an act that is, inherently, morally neutral, despite being bound up in many highly morally charged issues – or is the object the generation of sexual pleasure – which would make the act “deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to “in order to” = “with the object to”] derive sexual pleasure”?

I am not certain of my answer. I am not a trained theologian. But it appears to me that the object of rubbing one’s genitals repeatedly in a pleasurable manner is sexual pleasure, regardless of one’s ultimately good intent. The emission of semen is a foreseen consequence (morally neutral). Thus, manually causing ejaculation in the course of a medical test is masturbation, as defined by the Church. And, since the ends (completing the medical test) don’t justify the means (masturbation), the act is not legitmate.

Moral culpability in this case would likely be reduced from the typical culpability for masturbation, because (1) the moral principles involved are confusing and, to the untrained believer, apparently contradictory, which prevents “full knowledge”, and (2) the intent is a noble one, whereas the typical masturbator’s intent is entirely ignoble. However, masturbating for a medical test would remain a sin, and the evil grave. This is not acceptable to Christ. Christians are not called to account for “realities of life that can’t be ignored” or to “do the best they can on their daily walk.” Christians are called to perfection. Period. Christ demands this of us. The Church does all it can to help us achieve it. We may not succeed – scratch that, we will not succeed – in this life, and we could never make it without the grace of God… but nothing less than perfection will do. Moral persons must either jump through some facially weird hoops like using condoms with holes in them, or find a way to ejaculate without sexual pleasure as the object of the action.

Incidentally, has anyone heard of electroejaculation? It seems that that might be useful in those very rare circumstances where extraction by syringe won’t do the trick and perforated-condom intercourse is impossible. I’m don’t even resemble someone who knows anything about medicine or biology, though, so I don’t know whether it can be done on humans and/or would be dangerous and/or extremely painful.
 
If it truly wasn’t for pleasure why not just wait until you’re married? The fact alone that they came up with the “pinhole condom” idea shows that masturbation is considered immoral for this purpose.

Having 15 or 20 children is not a requirement. That’s not even relevant, this thread is actually about a way to have more kids.
Having 15 or 20 children may not be a REQUIREMENT however if you look at what is being asked by the RCC IF I UNDERSTAND IT CORRECTLY, it is a distinct possibility.
Here’s why. A couple marry and are abosolutely forbidden to prevent conception through artifical means. From what I know ( and I don’t know everything) the only way to prevent conception naturally is total abstention which is not a choice or by the rhythum method which in MOST cases ( not all) does not work well or not work at all. We need not go into the reasons why not. So there you have two healthy individuals very much in love who express that love in a very natural way, the way God Himself created for them to express their love for one another and what do you get, 15 or 20 children. How do I reach that conclusion? Look back a few generations.Look at the size those families were. They obeyed the RCC’s teachings and accepted the children God sent them as they promised on their wedding day.NLM
 
NLM makes a good point here, and it’s one I’ve wondered about from time to time myself. I think ultimately he’s wrong, but let’s not dismiss him so easily.

Masturbation is always wrong. I grant this freely and eagerly. I think most everyone in this conversation does. We are most of us faithful, loyal, Magisterium-following Catholics. I certainly am.

However, according to the Church, “By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure.” This is the Church’s official and complete definition of masturbation. Anything that falls within that category is masturbation. Anything that falls outside that category is not.

Deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to wash them is not masturbation.

Deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to aim urine in the right direction despite an unruly organ is not masturbation.

So is deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to accomplish a legitimate medical objective masturbation?

It seems to me that the immediately obvious answer is no. Thus, perfect obedience to the Church could allow or even require deliberate stimulation of the male genitals to the point of ejaculation in particular circumstances, so long as the object is not sexual pleasure.

Take another example: the Church has rules on killing. Namely, it is always wrong to intentionally kill another human being. Full stop. “2263. The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing.” However, we have a principle, derived from Aquinas, called double effect: an act with evil consequences can be legitimate if the object and intent of the act (they’re two different things, by the way) are legitimate, while the evil consequences, though foreseen, do not outweigh the good and are not a means to the good. This is why we are able to kill in self-defense and in war: we act legitimately to disable our assailant, and this disabling can (and, in war, very usually does) end in his death. But the killing, for a Catholic, must not be the object, but merely a foreseen consequence of an act taken for the legitimate aims of self-defense.

The classic example for double effect is that of the ectopic pregnancy. The direct killing of an unborn child is always wrong. Full stop. But in an ectopic pregnancy, the baby ends up in the wall of the Fallopian tube instead of the uterus. Both mother and child will die without intervention, and the child is too young to survive outside the womb. God does not allow abortion, for this would be murder. (The intent might be to save the mother, but the object of the action of taking a knife to a small child and cutting it into pieces is to kill the child. Killing the child is a means to the end of saving the mother, and therefore does not pass the double effect “test”.) However, surgical removal of the fallopian tube itself is permissible. This action has the intent of saving the mother (a good aim), the object of removing an organ (a morally neutral object), and the foreseen consequence of the child’s likely death – a terrible evil, but one which could not be avoided, and which here is partially offset by the fact that the mother will likely live. And, if the child does beat the odds and live, so much the better! The object was never to kill the baby, and the baby’s fate – like that of the wounded soldier – is left in God’s hands, not man’s.

And so we come back to the question before us. Is deliberate stimulation of the genital organs as part of a medical test masturbation? The intent is a great good – these medical tests do help couples solve medical problems that are preventing the natural and powerfully good fecundity of marriage. Is the object the emission of semen – an act that is, inherently, morally neutral, despite being bound up in many highly morally charged issues – or is the object the generation of sexual pleasure – which would make the act “deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to “in order to” = “with the object to”] derive sexual pleasure”?

I am not certain of my answer. I am not a trained theologian. But it appears to me that the object of rubbing one’s genitals repeatedly in a pleasurable manner is sexual pleasure, regardless of one’s ultimately good intent. The emission of semen is a foreseen consequence (morally neutral). Thus, manually causing ejaculation in the course of a medical test is masturbation, as defined by the Church. And, since the ends (completing the medical test) don’t justify the means (masturbation), the act is not legitmate.

Moral culpability in this case would likely be reduced from the typical culpability for masturbation, because (1) the moral principles involved are confusing and, to the untrained believer, apparently contradictory, which prevents “full knowledge”, and (2) the intent is a noble one, whereas the typical masturbator’s intent is entirely ignoble. However, masturbating for a medical test would remain a sin, and the evil grave. This is not acceptable to Christ. Christians are not called to account for “realities of life that can’t be ignored” or to “do the best they can on their daily walk.” Christians are called to perfection. Period. Christ demands this of us. The Church does all it can to help us achieve it. We may not succeed – scratch that, we will not succeed – in this life, and we could never make it without the grace of God… but nothing less than perfection will do. Moral persons must either jump through some facially weird hoops like using condoms with holes in them, or find a way to ejaculate without sexual pleasure as the object of the action.

Incidentally, has anyone heard of electroejaculation? It seems that that might be useful in those very rare circumstances where extraction by syringe won’t do the trick and perforated-condom intercourse is impossible. I’m don’t even resemble someone who knows anything about medicine or biology, though, so I don’t know whether it can be done on humans and/or would be dangerous and/or extremely painful.
In my opinion you answered the question when you said," IT seems to me that the immedietly obvious answer is no. Why? Because later on you ask the question,"What is the object of the act?"It is clearly NOT for pleasure but to repond to a medical requirement. If you think having to hand over a bottle containing your semen to a hospital staff member is “for pleasure” think again. I do not believe one need be a trained theologian to interpret this one.NLM
 
The object of the act is sexual pleasure. That was my whole point.

You seem to insist on conflating object and intent because that gross simplification of the act appeals to your self-styled “commonsensical” view that there’s nothing remotely objectionable going on here. But, if we break down your position to its component parts, what we find is the simple maxim, “Evil ends justify good means.” That’s the core of your opinion, and that position is, of course, anathema to any person of good conscience.

We could not see this had we not approached this complex moral question with the complex analysis it demands. More evil has been done in this world by the idea that the moral law (an absolute) can be perceived best through the application of simple common sense (a wildly variable, culturally relative term) than the Devil could ever hope to do. If you’re not willing to treat a theological question theologically (or, as I should have said earlier, an ethical question ethically), well… that’s a crying shame for me, because I was enjoying myself. I was still hoping you’d come up with a clever rebuttal, prove yourself right, and I could say my happy goodbyes to the perforated condom approach.

I gave you the largest possible benefit of the doubt here, nlm, but ultimately lizanne is right. Although your questioning provoked some interesting and enlightening exploration of just what is signified by the word “masturbation,” I see no sound theological “loophole” to be had here. If someone finds one, terrific, but for now it seems to be a closed case. The question is, finally, one of obedience to Christ. You can either trust the Church He leads and treat complex moral problems with the seriousness they warrant, or trust your own culturally contingent, historically variable common sense.

Just keep in mind that a hundred years ago, “common sense” would have called you morally depraved simply for raising the question. 😉

Does that make sense? I’ve gone rather off-topic from the immediate question of sperm analysis to a general indictment of common sense as unerring moral compass.
 
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