Sperm analysis

[Seatuck]

And for the women who do not have a reliable cycle?NLM

She might be able to get treated for whatever imbalance she has. Napro Technology perhaps. Many of the NFP methods work quite well with unreliable cycles since they don’t rely on the calendar but on the symptoms of the day.

 

[Seatuck]

You are exactly correct. In over 30 yeras in healthcare I have NEVER seen a semen specimen collected via a needle in the spermatic ducts. This would not produce a proper specimen. Masturbation is THE proper method of acquiring a sample which can then be examined.NLM

Tell that to the folks at the Paul VI clinics. Seems to be working for them and the other NFP only type fertility doctors who are treating couples with infertility.

 

[tjm190]

What is wrong with a little bit of logical. That was the problem with the jews, it was all law and no logic. Even Jesus Himself used a large measure of logic. When He was criticised for healing on the Sabbath LOGIC was the basis for His answer to His critics was it not?NLM

I was being sarcastic- it’d be nice to see some logic besides “Church says this- game over”

 

[Just_Lurking]

She might be able to get treated for whatever imbalance she has. Napro Technology perhaps. Many of the NFP methods work quite well with unreliable cycles since they don’t rely on the calendar but on the symptoms of the day.

I think the main group of women that NFP is ill-suited for are those who ovulate twice per cycle (see here).

 

[Just_Lurking]

I was being sarcastic- it’d be nice to see some logic besides “Church says this- game over”

Catholic theologians have been working frantically on this since Paul VI surprised the world by keeping the prohibition against contraception in Humanae Vitae. They have made some progress, but they still have a long way to go. The Theology of the Body approach makes a fair amount of sense by avoiding a legalistic approach, but because of this it can’t justify the precise nature of the legalistic prohibitions still in force. The New Natural Law approach starts off with the precise, legalistic prohibitions, but is still unable to come up with a justifiable, general approach to deriving natural law requirements from the nature of the world.

 

[rick43235]

And before too long, we’ll be stuck with a logical belief system.

Heaven forbid!!!

 

[Seatuck]

I think the main group of women that NFP is ill-suited for are those who ovulate twice per cycle (see here).

NFP often shows a second ovulation. I took part in a study back when I was in nursing school which showed several women’s signs showing a second ovulation. This was disbelieved until they decided to sonogram the ovaries and there were the signs of more than one ovulation.

 

[nlm]

Masturbation is the proper method of acquiring a sample which can then be examined. So, in this case, masturbation is morally acceptable as part of analysis.

Finally some common sense.Thank you NLM

 

[nlm]

She would likely have to be abstinent, just like couples faced with this situation 1000 years ago were, or single people are today.

Expecting couples to live as couples did 100 years ago. It does not happen often but I really don’t know what to say.NLM

 

[nlm]

I was being sarcastic- it’d be nice to see some logic besides “Church says this- game over”

Sorry, I did not read it that way. That’s the problem with the written word, one can’t read the sentiment behind the statement. I for one have difficulty with " The Church says" as the only reason for things. I much prefer Jesus said.NLM

 

[Timbothefiveth]

Masturbation is the proper method of acquiring a sample which can then be examined. So, in this case, masturbation is morally acceptable as part of analysis.

I wouldn’t be so sure.

From Persona Humana:

Whatever the force of certain arguments of a biological and philosophical nature, which have sometimes been used by theologians, in fact both the Magisterium of the Church - in the course of a constant tradition - and the moral sense of the faithful have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act.[19] The main reason is that, whatever the motive for acting this way, the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty.

 

[lizaanne]

Masturbation is THE proper method of acquiring a sample which can then be examined.NLM

Perhaps from a medical perspective - but that does not and never will make it morally acceptable!

As a medical professional, please tell me how it is imperative for the life of the man to have his semen examined. What disease or illness that is life threatening can be reversed or cured via this information?

Is it really worth WILLINGLY commiting a moral sin to know your sperm count? I don’t think so.

~Liza

 

[nlm]

Perhaps from a medical perspective - but that does not and never will make it morally acceptable!

As a medical professional, please tell me how it is imperative for the life of the man to have his semen examined. What disease or illness that is life threatening can be reversed or cured via this information?

Is it really worth WILLINGLY commiting a moral sin to know your sperm count? I don’t think so.

~Liza

Let me start by saying I have never said any medical condition was " life threatening". I did however say there can be serious infections of the prostate, seminal vesicals etc. which may necessitate such a diagnostic test to enable the physician to choose the proper course of treatment or antibiotic perhaps. Another VERY REAL reason for a semen analysis is post-vasectomy. It is the only safe method of assuring the couple that resuming normal unprotected sexual activity will not result in becoming pregnant.
We have already discussed the area of testing for fertility.So there are at times strong indications for medical procedures which would necessitate this method of specimen collection.NLM

 

[Bluegoat]

Expecting couples to live as couples did 100 years ago. It does not happen often but I really don’t know what to say.NLM

What difference would the time difference make in that case? If the moral issue hasn’t changed, then there is no difference to speak of from that POV. And I don’t think human nature has changed in the last 1000 years or even in the last 5000 years. Being abstinant can really stink, but there are ways to make it work.

Would you argue that it was ok to expect teenagers to be abstinant 100 years ago, but not today? What would have changed? This is to me just a bizarre argument. It’s not asking them to put up with body lice or something.

 

[kage_ar]

Another VERY REAL reason for a semen analysis is post-vasectomy.

If a man has already put his mortal soul in jeopardy with the sin of sterilization, then, guess it is no big deal to tack on the second mortal sin of masturbation…

 

[tjm190]

What difference would the time difference make in that case? If the moral issue hasn’t changed, then there is no difference to speak of from that POV. And I don’t think human nature has changed in the last 1000 years or even in the last 5000 years. Being abstinant can really stink, but there are ways to make it work.

“Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer.”
Abstinence in a marriage for any reason besides prayer is forbidden by Paul- luckily, the wonderful tool called contraception allows couples to follow this teaching regardless of their situation. Sadly, it seems that abstaining to avoid conception is not allowed.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

“Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer.”
Abstinence in a marriage for any reason besides prayer is forbidden by Paul- luckily, the wonderful tool called contraception allows couples to follow this teaching regardless of their situation. Sadly, it seems that abstaining to avoid conception is not allowed.

You forgot about the part where Paul directs the couple to take potions or mutilate themselves so they’ll be sterile…oh wait, PAUL DIDN’T SAY ANY SUCH THING!!!

The key words in that passage are “mutual” and “prayer”. The couple has to agree, and if they can’t, perhaps God is calling them to have another child? (this is assuming both are believers and one is not being just being a selfish jerk), and they should be praying and strengthening their relationship w/ God during this time. “A time” doesn’t mean any specific time, it could mean a few days, the normal time of abstinence while using NFP, or a few weeks while recovering from the birth of a child, or a few months while waiting out a high risk pregnancy, or a few years until menopause.

Creative way of trying to get the bible to justify contraception, though. A for effort.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[Bluegoat]

“Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer.”
Abstinence in a marriage for any reason besides prayer is forbidden by Paul- luckily, the wonderful tool called contraception allows couples to follow this teaching regardless of their situation. Sadly, it seems that abstaining to avoid conception is not allowed.

But we also have to use our brains to understand Scripture. Do you think Paul was unaware that there are sometimes exceptional circumstances, such as a very ill spouse, a spouse who must be away, or a woman for whom having another child could be deadly? Since he advocates that husbands love their wives as Christ loves the church, I suspect he would say in such a situation a husband is bound to do what is in his wife’s best interest, which would be to abstain.

If you conclude that couples cannot abstain to avoid conception, what do you think he meant people to do when conception would be a serious problem? ABC and NFP are both quite recent developments.

 

[nlm]

What difference would the time difference make in that case? If the moral issue hasn’t changed, then there is no difference to speak of from that POV. And I don’t think human nature has changed in the last 1000 years or even in the last 5000 years. Being abstinant can really stink, but there are ways to make it work.

Would you argue that it was ok to expect teenagers to be abstinant 100 years ago, but not today? What would have changed? This is to me just a bizarre argument. It’s not asking them to put up with body lice or something.

No I do not.I believe in the sanctity of marriage and all that comes with it. I do not believe in sex outside of marriage.NLM

 

[tjm190]

You forgot about the part where Paul directs the couple to take potions or mutilate themselves so they’ll be sterile…oh wait, PAUL DIDN’T SAY ANY SUCH THING!!!

The key words in that passage are “mutual” and “prayer”. The couple has to agree, and if they can’t, perhaps God is calling them to have another child? (this is assuming both are believers and one is not being just being a selfish jerk), and they should be praying and strengthening their relationship w/ God during this time. “A time” doesn’t mean any specific time, it could mean a few days, the normal time of abstinence while using NFP, or a few weeks while recovering from the birth of a child, or a few months while waiting out a high risk pregnancy, or a few years until menopause.

Creative way of trying to get the bible to justify contraception, though. A for effort.

In Christ,

Ellen

Let’s break down the statement

“Do not deprive each other”- A husband and wife are not to abstain
“except”- unless…
“by mutual consent”- No one side should refuse sex
“and for a time”- this abstinence should not be open ended
“so that you may devote yourselves to prayer.”- If it were not for this ending, you would be correct in your analysis. If he had said “so that you may avoid pregnancy” you would be even more correct. But he clearly states that three conditions must be met for a couple to abstain: consent, a set time, and for the sake of prayer. This passage does not offer direct support of contraception, it sets a standard that NFP fails.