Spiritualism - sinful?

[Roza]

The person that first gave me a link for this site was from England, she was one that had left the NAM too. I was taught meditation (the NAM way) in a Catholic College back in the 80’s so yeah, I stupidly lumped it all in as Catholic and became an anti.

Horoscopes, every year I HAD to read my bday horoscope! I saw it done at home, it was normal every day junk so yeah, I foolishly thought that was Catholic. I had a lot of misconceptions I needed to get worked out of me and I remember the night I battled with it soooo clearly. I laid on my bed and I cried, there were so many things I didn’t like about Catholicism yet every single one was getting disproved for me. How many double takes was it going to take?

Then when I first walked in to a Catholic Church after being gone so long, I remember staring at the Crucifix, I understood why it’s not just a blank empty cross in Catholic Churches. We need that image… that crucifix gives me the visual of what MY SIN did.

In fact, the one wiccan I still talk to and mind you we don’t talk all that much… she was never Catholic I don’t think, though not entirely sure, she was in a Catholic orphanage and would go to Mass. She claimed to get into wicca because of a book on it she found in the library. That would’ve been in the 70’s when that happened to her. It’s very easy so slip into those lures if one doesn’t know their faith and keep their eyes where they should be, on Jesus!

 

[Suzle]

I just Googled Fr Amorth, and although I am well aware of the fact that excorcists are a real office in the Church, I was never really that aware that it was “done” these days - I have never once heard my priest tell us of the evils of the occult, and I never had this covered when I took my catholic instruction before I was confirmed.

Just goes to show!

And I agree with you, the image of our Dear Lord on the Cross is certainly a powerful one - in actual fact, I have to say it is this that first really drew me to the Church as an adult - I watched Mel Gibson’s “Passion” at the cinema - whatever the critics might say about it, it really brought home to me the sacrifice our Lord made for us - I came out of the cinema and sat in my car and cried - I couldn’t drive for about fifteen minutes, and I cried during the film, and it STILL makes me cry each time I watch it!

I only have to think of Jesus’ suffering and it makes me all the more determined to live my life in a better way.

I guess that is why I am so desperate to have all my family believe like I do, but I don’t push it onto them, as it has to be their own choice, but I really experienced an “epiphany” that day at the cinema, and made myself look a total plonker in front of my friends - but hey, who cares!

(Sorry for the long posts, I get carried away!!!)

 

[Roza]

I wasn’t back to the Catholic Church yet but was out of the NAM. I had several free movie tickets from work and invited my friends, the wiccan, one of her sons (the other couldn’t make it but later watched it at home), and her husband. She and her son sobbed during the movie, after it was over they were still sobbing but she’s still a wiccan. I pray for them. I even went back the next day to see the movie again alone. I own it on DVD as well. I remember a church member back then who didn’t like the movie because it was ‘so Catholic’… she was one that left the Catholic Church too. The complaint was that Veronica wasn’t in the Bible, but she is in the Early Church Fathers I believe. My church back then a year or so later showed the Passion for the public. I pray that seed dropped with my wiccan friend will someday be blown to fertile soil in her.

---

Sorry, not ECF, but found this on New Advent;
St. Veronica

 

[Augustine]

This is indeed great news, praised be God forever!

You know, when we lost my baby brother, my parents, in their desperation, turned to necromancy. They tried to convince me by the answers that they heard to questions that only my brother could know. I told them that not only he but also the angels around us would know the answer, both angels of light and fallen ones. I think that this got their attention.

Eventually, my mother, whose depression was most concerning, came back to practicing the Faith. Unfortunately, my father is still stuck in necromancy. Please, pray for him as I pray for your mother.

 

[Augustine]

Roza,

St. Veronica’s original veil with the face of the Lord is shown on Passion Sunday every year at St. Peter’s basilica.

 

[Roza]

Sadly it was while I was still the dabbler, not in any church but praying and battling with whether or not I was right with God, I allegedly contacted my wiccan friend’s brother. So yeah, I feel some responsibility because she was one of the ones that thought I was one of the best ‘psychics’ she had ever met. Back then I was still praying to God but no interest beyond that. I know now I did not contact her brother but a familiar spirit. Yeah, I had been given information for her back then that only her brother would’ve known but I know now I hadn’t contacted her brother. I kept searching for God but in my new age ways, no wonder it was such a struggle. That was around the same time it popped into my head ‘satan’s sidekick’ instead of ‘psychic’. I have to wonder now, maybe that too was my guardian angel trying to get through to me? Those words kept bothering me too until I was delivered from it.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I just Googled Fr Amorth, and although I am well aware of the fact that excorcists are a real office in the Church, I was never really that aware that it was “done” these days - I have never once heard my priest tell us of the evils of the occult, and I never had this covered when I took my catholic instruction before I was confirmed.

Just goes to show!

Yeah, that’s the response from many people, including myself years ago. I thought that was only in the “Bible” days when Jesus walked the earth. It’s a very real phenomenon today and the Church is training more and more exorcists to combat the rising need for exorcisms. Pray that the Lord will send more workers out into the field.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

My family and my husbands family are non-catholics, except me - I converted to the faith last year. My mother and my husband’s mother and his sister have recently started attending the local spiritualist church.

Should I be worried about this? I have tried to encourage my mother to come to mass with me - she was brought up in the methodist church, and is I think trying to find her way to God. I have tried really hard to not just be the typical over-enthusiastic convert - I have just tried gently encouraging her!

She says she is sceptical, and I think she only goes to satisfy some curiosity, and for “something to do”!

My sister in law on the other hand is really into it - she believes she is psychic, and of course they are now trying to “develop her skills” according to my Mum. My mother in law is also really keen, and I think that it gives her a lot of comfort - my father in law passed away last summer, and she is keen to receive messages.

Are these people really capable of communicating with those who have passed away, or are they just cruel and manipulative, taking people’s genuine grief and turning it into their advantage?

Some mediums are fake. But, the reality is that those in the spiritualist movement can communicate with the “dead”. King Saul summoned the prophet Samuel from the grave. It’s possible.

My sister and mother in law were never really people of faith particularly, so I wonder if some kind of pursuit of God is better than none?

How can I with such little experience of the Catholic faith persuade them to come home to the true Church? What arguments can I persuade them with?

Of course, I will pray that they do find their way!

 

[beckycmarie]

Some mediums are fake. But, the reality is that those in the spiritualist movement can communicate with the “dead”. King Saul summoned the prophet Samuel from the grave. It’s possible.

Even if they can, the Church (and the Bible) both say not to become involved with mediums or speak to the dead ourselves.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Even if they can, the Church (and the Bible) both say not to become involved with mediums or speak to the dead ourselves.

Correct on the first part. King Saul used the witch of Endor. That’s a clue right there. Actually, Scripture says not to seek out mediums for guidance or the dead for guidance, but instead to seek God.

If a dead person comes to the living without any effort on their part, they cannot be held accountable. The passages that speak of this always speak of people who have “familiar spirits” - that is, people who get information from spirit guides and ancestors.

There are many cases where people have had dead loved ones appear to them without any “invoking” of them. They didn’t call for them at all. The spirits of the dead just show up.

Peace…

MW

 

[Roza]

I’m getting sandpaper kisses from my youngest kitty who’s sitting on my lap. Anyway, I need to keep praying the spiritual warfare prayers, keep praying them for my family and my friends too. I also need to do as I say I’m going to do and not keep second guessing myself, and to also remember to always do unto others. Keep praying for a job and keep my eyes up!

I wanted to thank you all for this forum. It’s comforting knowing I’m not such an oddball. It’s a bit weird when growing up with junk and trying to sort out what was supposed to be there and what wasn’t. Got to keep my eyes in the right place and keep pressing on to the goal.

Thanking God for getting me out of junk. Maybe I need to sit down and watch the Passion again.

Keep praying, God knows the dumb ideas that I used to let float in my head. I only want to be in His will now.

God bless

 

[Roza]

I forgot to type the other half but it is what I mean, do unto others as I would have them do unto me.

God bless

 

[Augustine]

Some mediums are fake. But, the reality is that those in the spiritualist movement can communicate with the “dead”. King Saul summoned the prophet Samuel from the grave. It’s possible.

Not really. It was a witch who summoned the prophet, but he didn’t appear because of her summons but because the Lord saw fit to admonish Saul.

In this sense, all mediums are fake as all that they summon are devils, willingly or not.

 

[Roza]

Not really. It was a witch who summoned the prophet, but he didn’t appear because of her summons but because the Lord saw fit to admonish Saul.

In this sense, all mediums are fake as all that they summon are devils, willingly or not.

That’s what I was thinking, the end result was death. I don’t believe anything from new age garbage anymore. I’m just going to have ‘fun’ starting with a new priest. I liked my old one but my Church closed, at least I think it did. I don’t hear the Church bells anymore. WNY.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Not really. It was a witch who summoned the prophet, but he didn’t appear because of her summons but because the Lord saw fit to admonish Saul.

In this sense, all mediums are fake as all that they summon are devils, willingly or not.

Yes, I should have said that Saul “sought” Samuel and that the witch “summoned” him. The point was that it was Saul’s intention to do so, which was the sinful part of it. The witch was just “doing her thing”. His intent was flawed.

I have a different view of what they summon because I believe in different kinds of spirits, and apparently people like Peter Kreeft think so also. I’m not Catholic, so that may be the difference.

Peace…

MW

 

[Suzle]

Weird - I just typed a reply, and it disappeared! In case it re-appears, sorry for repeating myself!

I just wanted to say that if God punished Saul for using the witch, what do you think happens to people who visit psychics.

Do you think that things like reiki and other (at least what looks like) more harmless looking NAM stuff is as bad?

They are meant to help, so the intentions are good, although of course I guess its possible to do harm even when good is intended!

I know a lady who is a reiki healer, and she is a catholic as well. I wonder how this fits in with the doctrines of the Church - I would imagine it wouldn’t!

Definitely watch Passion again Roza - it inspires me every time!

I will pray for you for a job - and that you soon find your path and role that God has planned for you - I pray for this for myself too - I really wonder what His plan is for me - and if maybe I am already following it or not!

BTW - my ginger terrier/heinz 57 thinks that she’s the one thats paying the mortgage, cos she’s trying to push me off the settee! Why do our animals think that they are the ones in charge!!!

God Bless!

 

[Fran65]

Weird -Do you think that things like reiki and other (at least what looks like) more harmless looking NAM stuff is as bad? … I know a lady who is a reiki healer, and she is a catholic as well. I wonder how this fits in with the doctrines of the Church - I would imagine it wouldn’t!

Hi Suzle,

Reiki is not harmless. I have read a bit about it whilst seeking help for extreme fatigue, which turned out to be a serious heart condition. To become a ‘reiki master’ (and that’s the terminology), you have to be ‘attuned’ by having the ability ‘passed on’ to you by a senior master who is in contact with ‘the energy’.

There is no doubt in my mind at all that the energy referred to is evil in nature, turning people away from God. All of that NAM stuff about attuning to ‘positive energies’ and the ‘white light’ and your ‘higher self’ is the same old, same old for a new generation.

Don’t forget that evil can appear as a bright, white, beautiful angel just as easily as appearing in its true hellish nature. All evil wants is to turn us away from God and it can accomplish that with rainbows, fluffy clouds, white light and the sort of angels that people like Doreen Virtue (sic!!) work with and sell.

Evil is the master deceiver and the father of lies. Telling us we don’t need God, we just need to tune into and develop our selves and use the ‘energy’ to do so is the oldest lie of all.

BTW, I know what you mean about your dog - I often have to budge ours up to make room for me on the sofa!

God Bless

 

[Roza]

Mystic Warrior - “Some mediums are fake. But, the reality is that those in the spiritualist movement can communicate with the “dead”. King Saul summoned the prophet Samuel from the grave. It’s possible.”

I would argue that mediums communicate with demons. Put it this way, I wanted to talk to my grandma, I miss her, she always stood up for me. When I supposedly did, she didn’t know her middle name. A wiccan friend of mine back then said it was just ‘static’… that was the excuse I got a lot if I had wrong information. The other was that I was blocking the spirits… they were demons. Scripture tells us no divination so why would angels or our deceased loved ones in heaven talk to mediums? Why would someone in God’s presence deliberately act against His will? I believe it is possible for a deceased person to come back but ONLY if it’s a special God ordained instance and it would not be to talk to a ‘medium’ which blatantly goes against what scripture tells us.

In those dumb dabbling days of mine, and YES they were DUMB, people would tell me I was one of the most accurate psychics (or Satan’s sidekick). It was necromancy. I haven’t done any of that junk since 2003. I don’t feel ‘spirits’ (demons) around me anymore. I don’t like dwelling too much on those days because retyping things reminds me how goofy I sounded. I knew so many at our favorite New Age hang outs. None of them were the typical portrayal of evil messed up people but ones that really thought they were trying to help people, thought they were doing right but they were oh so deceived. I had friends that were wiccan, pagan and even the wiccan rede, do what ye will but harm ye none… they ‘think’ they’re not hurting anyone.

I pray for all of those I affected in my dumb drifting necromancy days. I myself wasn’t evil, nor was that woman that was mentioned here, but I was horribly deceived. My friends were horribly deceived, many still are. I only know of one so far who also read tarot and experienced hearing foot steps and other things (I was with her one day when we both heard steps on the stairs but nobody was there)… she’s out of it. She no longer messes with tarot or anything else and no longer believes any of that garbage was real.

 

[Roza]

I was still in my medium days, still horribly deceived but started going back to reading the Bible. I remember coming across these verses;

Deuteronomy DRB
9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God shall give thee, beware lest thou have a mind to imitate the abominations of those nations. 10 Neither let there be found among you any one that shall expiate his son or daughter, making them to pass through the fire: or that consulteth soothsayers, or observeth dreams and omens, neither let there be any wizard,

11 Nor charmer, nor any one that consulteth pythonic spirits, or fortune tellers, or that seeketh the truth from the dead. 12 For the Lord abhorreth all these things, and for these abominations he will destroy them at thy coming. 13 Thou shalt be perfect, and without spot before the Lord thy God.

Click the link above for the whole DRB. I read those over several times, I was an abomination to God! That hit me so hard. It was some while after that where I had attended the convention where I was delivered from it all.

The case in the Bible regarding Saul and Samuel, do we know for sure one was really summoned from the dead or was it a familiar spirit? Scripture isn’t specific on it. It could have been a real contact OR it could have been a familiar spirit pretending.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Mystic Warrior:

• “Some mediums are fake. But, the reality is that those in the spiritualist movement can communicate with the “dead”. King Saul summoned the prophet Samuel from the grave. It’s possible.”

Roza:

I would argue that mediums communicate with demons. Put it this way, I wanted to talk to my grandma, I miss her, she always stood up for me. When I supposedly did, she didn’t know her middle name.

Sister, sometimes they do, but you are supposing that there are only angels and demons. That’s just not true. Read the AA section in which ghosts have been talked about and read Peter Kreeft and read Bro.Ignatius Mary’s website about it.

I don’t really like to debate people about this because it’s usually pointless. If your “grandma” couldn’t give her middle name then it wasn’t “grandma”. It’s pretty simple. And if you ask a spirit who comes to you or speaks to you and claims they are an angel then you test them.

Ask them if they confess Jesus is the Son of God who came in the flesh. The Bible talks about this. If they say they are a departed human, then you ask for details. If they can’t get through those 2 tests, then you can conclude that they are demons. But, it’s not wise to call or treat all spirits as demons.

Roza:

A wiccan friend of mine back then said it was just ‘static’… that was the excuse I got a lot if I had wrong information. The other was that I was blocking the spirits… they were demons. Scripture tells us no divination so why would angels or our deceased loved ones in heaven talk to mediums? Why would someone in God’s presence deliberately act against His will? I believe it is possible for a deceased person to come back but ONLY if it’s a special God ordained instance and it would not be to talk to a ‘medium’ which blatantly goes against what scripture tells us.

Why would angel Gabriel appear to Mary? Why would Raphael appear to Tobias? Why would angels appear to Abraham in the OT? I don’t get your second question - “Why would someone in God’s presence…?” Can you explain?

You seem to be lumping mediums into a “non-human” status. Are they excluded from hearing from God? No, Scripture does not tell us that God would not speak to a “medium” (who remember is a human being - his creation). My experiences paint a different picture of the spirit world. I won’t debate that either because it would just turn into a burning at the stake.

Roza:

In those dumb dabbling days of mine, and YES they were DUMB, people would tell me I was one of the most accurate psychics (or Satan’s sidekick). It was necromancy. I haven’t done any of that junk since 2003. I don’t feel ‘spirits’ (demons) around me anymore. I don’t like dwelling too much on those days because retyping things reminds me how goofy I sounded. I knew so many at our favorite New Age hang outs. None of them were the typical portrayal of evil messed up people but ones that really thought they were trying to help people, thought they were doing right but they were oh so deceived. I had friends that were wiccan, pagan and even the wiccan rede, do what ye will but harm ye none… they ‘think’ they’re not hurting anyone.

They are still people, after all - not monsters. They are wrong, yes, but God still loves them.

Roza:

I pray for all of those I affected in my dumb drifting necromancy days. I myself wasn’t evil, nor was that woman that was mentioned here, but I was horribly deceived. My friends were horribly deceived, many still are. I only know of one so far who also read tarot and experienced hearing foot steps and other things (I was with her one day when we both heard steps on the stairs but nobody was there)… she’s out of it. She no longer messes with tarot or anything else and no longer believes any of that garbage was real.

It could be an even greater danger to deny such things happen or exist. Though you realize the fitpalls of the practices, don’t throw out the existence of the spirits. They certainly exist.

Peace…

MW