Spirituality of religious orders in Catholic tradition

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See this is interesting because based on your description, I would expect the Benedictines to be more solitary folks.
As a Benedictine Sister, I can tell you that Carmelites have typically been more solitary than Benedictines. There are many more Carmelite hermits now and in the past than there have been Benedictine hermits…of course, St. Benedict did spend a lot time in a cave with his only companion being a raven! Benedictines are monastic…actually, we are THE monastics. St. Benedict is called the “Father of western monasticism”.Of course, the modern Benedictines are far from monasticism…they are far from Catholic, some of them! Benedictines, that is, traditional Benedictines, pray the Divine Office (Monastic Diurnal) 7 times a day. I was in a Carmelite community for about 2 years before going to the Benedictines, and I can tell you that they have a very different definition of monasticism. But, that is their charism.
 
I would like to ask a question about these spiritualities that I have not seen answered yet. If I were to go up to a Franciscan, a Dominican, a Benedictine, and a Carmelite and asked them what the best thing I could do to build up a private prayer life (methods of prayer, etc.), i.e. kind of a private rule of prayer for the layman or woman, what are each of them most likely to answer? I know some very brief or broad answers, but I’m never sure which answer is for a consecrated religious and which is for laity.

Thanks!
Sean
Sean: I cannot really answer for any spirituality outside of my own Benedictine experience, but I can tell you that St. Benedict emphasized silence and prayer. That can also be called “contemplation”. Benedictine spirituality is very simple: St. Benedict summed it up in these words: “Ut in omnipotent glorificateur Deus”…“That in all things God may be glorified.” He had two other mottoes: “Ora et labora” (prayer and work), and “Pax” (peace). That is Benedictine spirituality in a nutshell. If you want to expand your prayer life/spiritual life, I would suggest a very good book entitled, “Centering Prayer” by Basil Pennington, a Trappist monk. It’s what got me on the road to contemplation when I was a very young woman (before becoming a Benedictine).
 
Br. Jay, thank you for that recommendation. Which writings would be appropriate for interest concerning the Franciscan life?

Also, thank you to all for the thoughts on the Carmelite spirituality. This thread and the Perfect Joy of St. Francis thread have been enormous trees of spiritual fruit for me.

In Christ,
Sean
If you have read some biogaphies of St. Francis, you may find his writings and those of St. Clare to be very helpful. They give you an insight into their mind and thier vision of the Gospel life. There are some good books such as

Francis: The Early Documents by Regis Armstrong, OFM Cap - this is a 4 vol collection.

Ture Joy: The Wisdom of Clare and Francis by Regis Armstrong, OFM Cap

Journey and the Dream by Murray Bodo, OFM. I don’t like this book; but many people love it. I find it too poetic.

Francis and Clare: The Complete Works by Regis Armstrong, OFM Cap - this is the precursor to the title at the top, but less expensive.

St. Francis of Assisi: Writings and Early Biographies : English Omnibus of the Sources for the Life of St. Francis by Marion A. Habig

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I would like to ask a question about these spiritualities that I have not seen answered yet. If I were to go up to a Franciscan, a Dominican, a Benedictine, and a Carmelite and asked them what the best thing I could do to build up a private prayer life (methods of prayer, etc.), i.e. kind of a private rule of prayer for the layman or woman, what are each of them most likely to answer? I know some very brief or broad answers, but I’m never sure which answer is for a consecrated religious and which is for laity.

Thanks!
Sean
You may wish to consider a book titled “The New Wine of Dominican Spirituality: A Drink Called Happiness” by Fr. Paul Murray, OP if you are looking for a good introduction to the Dominican approach. The forward is done by Fr. Timothy Radcliffe, OP who was the previous Master of the Order.

I’m almost finished with the book now and it is very good.;
 
Gonna ask for this for Christmas, thanks for posting it!
No problem. I have ton of articles in pdf on Domincan spirituality, the role of Lay Domincans, Lay Dominican formation, etc… If you are interested, let me know and I can share them with you.
 
No problem. I have ton of articles in pdf on Domincan spirituality, the role of Lay Domincans, Lay Dominican formation, etc… If you are interested, let me know and I can share them with you.
Sold! Once the dust settles on some issues on the homefront I plan on meeting up with the head of the local Priory again.

I’ll drop you a line through a PM.
 
I would also like to add in here my thanks. I love learning about all the different orders and religious communities, and all the different forms of spirituality that accompany them. Fascinating and edifying.

Thank you, Br. Jay, and Sister Terese. And everyone else who has given information in this thread. 🙂
 
Sean: I cannot really answer for any spirituality outside of my own Benedictine experience, but I can tell you that St. Benedict emphasized silence and prayer. That can also be called “contemplation”. Benedictine spirituality is very simple: St. Benedict summed it up in these words: “Ut in omnipotent glorificateur Deus”…“That in all things God may be glorified.” He had two other mottoes: “Ora et labora” (prayer and work), and “Pax” (peace). That is Benedictine spirituality in a nutshell. If you want to expand your prayer life/spiritual life, I would suggest a very good book entitled, “Centering Prayer” by Basil Pennington, a Trappist monk. It’s what got me on the road to contemplation when I was a very young woman (before becoming a Benedictine).
Thanks Sr. Terese,

I’m not sure why I am so attracted to Benedictine spirituality because I don’t know that much about it.

I also find it a bit harder to get information at local parishes on the Oblates. Is it because it is mostly monastic? I usually find Carmelite and Dominican third orders fairly frequently at parishes.
Of course, the modern Benedictines are far from monasticism…they are far from Catholic, some of them!
This is sad.

Is there a way to find out which monasteries are more traditional in case I wanted to attend a retreat at a monastery?
 
Each of us is an individual. I would direct you to Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales. De Sales was a secular priest. Probably, better than most religious, he understood the spiritual life of the secular man and woman.

If you asked specifically about the Franciscan life, then I would point you to some Franciscan writings.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I’ve been reading “Intro to Devout Life” recently, and comparing it to what I know of Carmelite spirituality and find that the Salesian (?) spirituality seems to dovetail into Carmelite spirituality as well. The whole reason I started getting into St. Francis de Sales was because I was reading about Therese’s sister Leonie, a Visitation Sister. It was said that Leonie, while having many core spiritual qualities that would make a good Carmelite, was better suited for the more gentle life of a Visitation nun, whereas I believe it was her sister Maria had more of a Salesian spirituality, but was better suited to live the aesthetic challenges of the Carmelite cloister.

It seems to me that the core of the Salesian spirituality is peacefulness in all thoughts and actions through trust in Christ and His divine providence (“liberty of spirit”), whereas the core of Carmelite spirituality seems to be peacefulness through entering the spiritual desert to live in simple contemplation in God through prayer. The surrender to God and his providence seems to be at the top of both charisms for sure, but the Salesian spirituality seems to have the surrender as the ultimate goal, whereas the contemplative (presence of God) aspect seems to be more of the forefront of Carmelite spirituality with the peace and surrender being a fruit of the contemplation.

Am I interpreting this correctly at all?
 
MODERATOR NOTE

We do not give our personal opinions about the orthodoxy of any religious community, parish or institution that is in good standing with the Catholic Church. These are just that, our opinions based on our perspective. Any insititute that is in good standing with the Church has a right to its good name.
 
Everything is subservient to Liturgy. It’s rather interesting. They are not bound to rubrics. I often see Trads talk about the Monastic Diurnal as an alternative to the Breviary and I chuckle. it shows that some people don’t know the whole story. The Monastic Diurnal, as they call it, is the breviary. However, every abbot has the poewr to write the breviary and the missal for his abbey. Today, what they generally do is to work collaboratively as congregations. This means that several moansteries cooperate on certain things, without abdicating their autonomy. One of the things on which they collaborate is the liturgy. If there are 1500 Benedictine abbeys around the world, there may only be 300 congregations. You could have 300 forms of the Liturgy of the Hours and 300 forms of the mass. Again, the Church does not interfere. This is the right of the abbot granted to Benedict by God. Only a pope can interfere. Those popes who have interfered have been far and few between. Why mess with perfection?

They bring to the Church a testimony of the value of obedience. This testimony is reflected in their liturgical life. They pray as they obey and they obey as they pray. There is an asceticism to their obedience, but there is also a harmony to it, just like their liturgy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Somehow I knew you would be all over this thread… 😃
 
Wow I showed up late to this thread…which I might say has been my favorite as of right now.

I too love Benedictine and Carmelite Spirituality. I’m blown away again and again by the words of St. Teresa de Avila.

Anyone else notice the similarities between Benedictines/Carmelites and Byzantine/Orthodox spirituality? I have and that has been one of many aspects that draws me to learn more about them.
 
Wow I showed up late to this thread…which I might say has been my favorite as of right now.

I too love Benedictine and Carmelite Spirituality. I’m blown away again and again by the words of St. Teresa de Avila.

Anyone else notice the similarities between Benedictines/Carmelites and Byzantine/Orthodox spirituality? I have and that has been one of many aspects that draws me to learn more about them.
There’s a lot of spiritualties that have similarities. I was debating on making a Visio flow chart at one point showcasing that.

The Dominicans and Franciscans have a lot in common, and have great mutual respect with one another. This goes all the way back to the founding of both Orders, and continues today. Even in things like the Litany of the Saints, we have Dominic and Francis mentioned together.

The Benedictines are like the Franciscans in that they have an emphasis on community and obedience (with a side of obedience), and heavy on the contemplative. Carmalites are even more into the contemplative.

Falling some place in there are the Jesuits and Ignatian spirituality, which has it’s own thing.

Several Dominicans actually participate in some of the festivities/activities surrounding the October 3rd/4th, and Fra
 
Anyone else notice the similarities between Benedictines/Carmelites and Byzantine/Orthodox spirituality? I have and that has been one of many aspects that draws me to learn more about them.
This takes us back to the subject of Catholic Tradition. The Carmelite school dates back to before Christ, to the hermits at Mt. Carmel. The Benedictine school is born from the early hermits and cenobites. One can say that Benedict pulls from the best of both schools.

The Carmelites will eventually be Christianized and evolve and merge (for many reasons that are not important now) with the mendicant movement set in motion by the Servites, Trinitarians, Dominicans and Franciscans, in that order. The Carmelites will pick up many Dominican customs, including the habit of the Dominican order.
There’s a lot of spiritualties that have similarities. I was debating on making a Visio flow chart at one point showcasing that.

The Dominicans and Franciscans have a lot in common, and have great mutual respect with one another. This goes all the way back to the founding of both Orders, and continues today. Even in things like the Litany of the Saints, we have Dominic and Francis mentioned together.

The Benedictines are like the Franciscans in that they have an emphasis on community and obedience (with a side of obedience), and heavy on the contemplative. Carmalites are even more into the contemplative.

Falling some place in there are the Jesuits and Ignatian spirituality, which has it’s own thing.
Dominicans and Franciscans have much in common, because we are both mendicants and both are preachers. We also have the strong emphasis on poverty, though for the Franciscan, poverty is collective and individual. For the Dominican, poverty is individual, not collective. Dominicans live in large priories with great libraries, chapter halls, choirs, refectories and other comforts that only the Conventual Franciscans have, because they adopted these from the monks. Other Franciscans do not have these houses and do not have corporate property.

The difference is due to the focus. The Dominican focus is on knowing in order to preach. Franciscans focus on being in order to preach. While the Dominicans place a great deal of emphasis on knowledge and study and less on brotherhood, the Franciscans do it the other way around. One is first a brother, than a student.

They’re coming from different roots. The Dominicans are Augustinians at heart. They follow the Rule of St. Augustine. They don’t have a Dominican Rule. The Rule of St. Augustine says that they can even dispense with the constitutions (statutes) in order to study and preach. This means that they can dispense with the life and obligations of community, in order to study and preach. Like Augustine, Dominic focuses on Christ the teacher and Christ the priest.

The Franciscan does not accept any other inspiration except that of Francis, because Francis said,

**No one showed me what I ought to do, but the Most High Himself revealed to me that I should live according to the form of the holy Gospel. And I caused it to be written in few words and simply, and the Lord Pope confirmed it for me. **

The entire Franciscan family, all 1.7 million of us, ground our entire spiritual life on the private revelations given to St. Francis, which we accept as Truth, because the Lord Pope confirmed the Rule. The other orders do not make a claim to being inspired through revelation. Only Franciscans and Missionaries of Charity do. It was only to Francis and Mother Teresa that Christ actually spoke and told them what to do and how to fashion their communities.

The other communities are no less inspired though. They are equally inspired by the Holy Spirit, but through different means, not through visions and locutions, more through experience. These experiences are often commonly shared. The experience of an Augustine and a Dominic is common to both. The experience of Benedict, Bernard and Robert is common to all three, hence the overlaps between the Benedictines, Cistercians and Trappists. They come from a common well of spiritual graces.

These are theological facts and dimensions of Catholic Tradition that the average person in the pew does not know.

The Jesuits are not out there doing something different either, as many people think. Ingnatius took from the Dominicans of his time. As the Spirit guided him, he realized that what he had taken from the Dominicans was not meant for him or his order, because God had other plans.

The first Jesuits were mendicants. They made solemn vows, just like Dominicans, prayed in common, served he poor and lived a very intense life of study and prayer in community, as do Dominicans. They had coadjutor brothers who were not priests, but served the needs of the priests, liberating them to preach and study, just like Dominicans do.

However, given the needs of the missions and the needs of the Church for scholars, preaches and missionaries, Ignatius gradually abandoned the apostolates to the poor and sick, leaving those to the mendicants, gradually liberated his Jesuit brothers from community life in order to send them away to teach and preach. They kept certain Dominican elements: study, contemplation, LOTH, preaching and teaching. The dropped community life, obedience to a local superior, submission to bishops and corporate poverty, because it was not practical. Ignatius also borrowed something from the Franciscans. While the Franciscans profess unquestioning obedience to popes and bishops, Ignatius modified it a little. They would go where the pope sent them.

If we put all of these great movements together, we can see the entire Gospel as if in a tapestry.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I find it hilarious (and telling) that Dominicans can throw out some constitutions if it enables them to exercise their charism of teaching and preaching better. It makes sense that an Order of Preachers would have such a “clause” to help them out like that.

I like how they still focus on Brotherhood and community, though (unless, as you say, it’s interfering with the preaching). Brotherhood and fellowship are incredibly important to myself and in my life. I find that when I prepare talks and teaching materials for my parish that I often write it by myself, but several ideas come about after having had discussions with others and analyzing those conversations.

Dominicans never stop thinking or learning.
 
I find it hilarious (and telling) that Dominicans can throw out some constitutions if it enables them to exercise their charism of teaching and preaching better. It makes sense that an Order of Preachers would have such a “clause” to help them out like that.

I like how they still focus on Brotherhood and community, though (unless, as you say, it’s interfering with the preaching). Brotherhood and fellowship are incredibly important to myself and in my life. I find that when I prepare talks and teaching materials for my parish that I often write it by myself, but several ideas come about after having had discussions with others and analyzing those conversations.

Dominicans never stop thinking or learning.
I didn’t say “throw out”. They can set the constitutions aside. I don’t know if this means that they are also excused from community prayer and liturgy or not.

Fraternity is a whole other subject. You don’t have to be attached at the hip to be brothers to each other and care for and about each other. I know that they take very good care of their older friars and their younger ones in formation. The priors make it a point to provide for the sick.

But it is different from my Franciscan experience. The rule and constitutions are not to be tampered with in the Franciscan family, even if you have to give up all ministry. That’s the reason that the Franciscans of the Renewal do not do parish work. The rule and constitutions say that Franciscans do not minister to middle class or higher. It also says that all friars are equal.

History has proven over and over again that when the friars take over a poor parish, eventually, it becomes middle class, which is good for the people. What is not good is that it’s very hard to leave the parish, because bishops don’t always have anyone to take over.

In addition, bishops and lay people tend to ignore the equality part. For example, if you assign five friars to a parish and four are non ordained friars, the bishop will only allow you to take a stipend for the one that is ordained, even though the other four do spiritual direction, youth ministry, marriage preparation, take communion to the sick, run religious education, take care of parish administration and finances, maintain the grounds and buildings, etc. There have been bishops who will not allow religious communities to take a stipend out of the collection for these other friars.

Then there are lay people who will not go to spiritual direction to a friar who is not a priest or will ot take marriage prep from a friar who is not a priest. There is a very famous Franciscan brother, Br. Daniel Sulmasy. The man is an MD with several areas of medical expertise,he is a Doctor of Philosophy and a Doctor of Theology. He is more qualified to be a priest than your local bishop. He’s not a priest. I could not believe that parishioners at a certain parish ignored his services as a spiritual director and theologian, because he is not a priest. In the meantime, non Catholic organizations, including the US Governement have asked him to serve on several Ethics Committees. The man is an expert in moral issues.

We find the Rule and Constitutions are not dispensable, even for a ministry like preaching, as noble as it may be. You can get trapped in areas of ministry that are inconsistent with your charism and you can end up working with people who do not respect your charism.

The Dominicans can do this and get away with it, because their approach to poverty is different. The friars have to be poor, not the people they serve. The other is that they are an order of priests. They consider the Dominican Brothers to be a separate vocation. The vocation of their brothers is to take care of the needs of the community so that the priests can preach and teach. That is not the vocation of the Franciscan. There is the difference.

If you say that to a Franciscan today, he’ll hit you over the head with a skillet, then proceed to make an sandwich for one of his priest brothers. We do care for friars who are in outside ministry and we have many friars who are like moms. They run things while he rest of us run around. But notice, they run things while the rest of US, not just the ordained, run around. We have a great deal of love and appreciation for these men. In my community we have a priest who does this. He is a maintenance man and a go-to guy. He’s awesome and very holy. He goes out on Sundays to help at a parish. Mon-Sat he does manual labor. This makes him happy, so superiors let him do it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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