Spirituality of religious orders in Catholic tradition

[Melchior_1]

I didn’t say “throw out”. They can set the constitutions aside. I don’t know if this means that they are also excused from community prayer and liturgy or not.

Fraternity is a whole other subject. You don’t have to be attached at the hip to be brothers to each other and care for and about each other. I know that they take very good care of their older friars and their younger ones in formation. The priors make it a point to provide for the sick.

But it is different from my Franciscan experience. The rule and constitutions are not to be tampered with in the Franciscan family, even if you have to give up all ministry. That’s the reason that the Franciscans of the Renewal do not do parish work. The rule and constitutions say that Franciscans do not minister to middle class or higher. It also says that all friars are equal.

History has proven over and over again that when the friars take over a poor parish, eventually, it becomes middle class, which is good for the people. What is not good is that it’s very hard to leave the parish, because bishops don’t always have anyone to take over.

In addition, bishops and lay people tend to ignore the equality part. For example, if you assign five friars to a parish and four are non ordained friars, the bishop will only allow you to take a stipend for the one that is ordained, even though the other four do spiritual direction, youth ministry, marriage preparation, take communion to the sick, run religious education, take care of parish administration and finances, maintain the grounds and buildings, etc. There have been bishops who will not allow religious communities to take a stipend out of the collection for these other friars.

Then there are lay people who will not go to spiritual direction to a friar who is not a priest or will ot take marriage prep from a friar who is not a priest. There is a very famous Franciscan brother, Br. Daniel Sulmasy. The man is an MD with several areas of medical expertise,he is a Doctor of Philosophy and a Doctor of Theology. He is more qualified to be a priest than your local bishop. He’s not a priest. I could not believe that parishioners at a certain parish ignored his services as a spiritual director and theologian, because he is not a priest. In the meantime, non Catholic organizations, including the US Governement have asked him to serve on several Ethics Committees. The man is an expert in moral issues.

We find the Rule and Constitutions are not dispensable, even for a ministry like preaching, as noble as it may be. You can get trapped in areas of ministry that are inconsistent with your charism and you can end up working with people who do not respect your charism.

The Dominicans can do this and get away with it, because their approach to poverty is different. The friars have to be poor, not the people they serve. The other is that they are an order of priests. They consider the Dominican Brothers to be a separate vocation. The vocation of their brothers is to take care of the needs of the community so that the priests can preach and teach. That is not the vocation of the Franciscan. There is the difference.

If you say that to a Franciscan today, he’ll hit you over the head with a skillet, then proceed to make an sandwich for one of his priest brothers. We do care for friars who are in outside ministry and we have many friars who are like moms. They run things while he rest of us run around. But notice, they run things while the rest of US, not just the ordained, run around. We have a great deal of love and appreciation for these men. In my community we have a priest who does this. He is a maintenance man and a go-to guy. He’s awesome and very holy. He goes out on Sundays to help at a parish. Mon-Sat he does manual labor. This makes him happy, so superiors let him do it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

“Throwing out” was a poor choice of words on my part, and didn’t convey what I meant (still find it slightly funny though). The equality and poverty aspects make it easy to understand why Franciscans need to live by the Rule, no exceptions. You can even see that with Francis’ successor, if I recall correctly.

I can see people’s reasoning behind not wanting to see someone who isn’t ordained. I disagree with it vehemently, but I see their reasoning. Someone like Brother Daniel would be such an asset to anyone’s life, and I’m sure there’s several hundreds of thousands of Brothers (and Sisters) who are in a similar position that he’s in. I’d gladly take a non-ordained Brother if it meant it’s someone solid.

I was talking to a buddy of mine whose in the seminary, and we were talking about Diocesan Priesthood and the Religious Life, and that certain people are drawn to certain things. It’s always interesting to talk with him because we approach things from a different perspective.

 

[jwinch2]

I have been reading a bit on this lately.

One thing I came across on the setting aside of the constitutions is that it is to be viewed as a burden rather than something which is desirable. Contemplation, prayer, study and community life are more important for the Dominican Friar/Sister to do for themselves and their brethren. Preaching and teaching however, is good for others and thus Friars/Sisters will, at times, set aside the joys of the things which they prefer to do in order to take on the duty of the things which are good for others.

I believe that this is an important distinction to make so that people recognize that setting aside the constitutions is something which isn’t just done when a Friar or Sister feels like it but rather is seen as a sacrifice they are often called to make for a greater good.

 

[Celticnovice]

There’s a lot of spiritualties that have similarities. I was debating on making a Visio flow chart at one point showcasing that.

The Dominicans and Franciscans have a lot in common, and have great mutual respect with one another. This goes all the way back to the founding of both Orders, and continues today. Even in things like the Litany of the Saints, we have Dominic and Francis mentioned together.

The Benedictines are like the Franciscans in that they have an emphasis on community and obedience (with a side of obedience), and heavy on the contemplative. Carmalites are even more into the contemplative.

Falling some place in there are the Jesuits and Ignatian spirituality, which has it’s own thing.

Several Dominicans actually participate in some of the festivities/activities surrounding the October 3rd/4th, and Fra

I used to belong to a Parrish that was run by Dominicans and they always held St. Francis on par with St. Dominic. Our Dominican priests always referred to Franciscans as their brothers…They even had Franciscan shields at their houses.

St. Ignatious has some great teachings on contemplative prayer…you can find them in his book "Spiritual Exercises. "

 

[JReducation]

I have been reading a bit on this lately.

One thing I came across on the setting aside of the constitutions is that it is to be viewed as a burden rather than something which is desirable. Contemplation, prayer, study and community life are more important for the Dominican Friar/Sister to do for themselves and their brethren. Preaching and teaching however, is good for others and thus Friars/Sisters will, at times, set aside the joys of the things which they prefer to do in order to take on the duty of the things which are good for others.

I believe that this is an important distinction to make so that people recognize that setting aside the constitutions is something which isn’t just done when a Friar or Sister feels like it but rather is seen as a sacrifice they are often called to make for a greater good.

This is very appropriate to Dominicans. We need to remember their official name. The Order of Preachers. Preaching is the greater good for them to achieve.

When you look at Franciscans, one also needs to look at the original name, The Lesser Brothers. Brotherhood with minority is the greater good for them to acheive

I used to belong to a Parrish that was run by Dominicans and they always held St. Francis on par with St. Dominic. Our Dominican priests always referred to Franciscans as their brothers…They even had Franciscan shields at their houses.

St. Ignatious has some great teachings on contemplative prayer…you can find them in his book "Spiritual Exercises. "

Dominicans and Franciscans have always worked closely together, because we compliment each other. We always refer to the two founders as the Holy Fathers Dominic and Francis.

What is different is how we’re organized. The Dominicans follow the model of Augustinians. The Franciscans follow the model of the Cistercians.

While they have a Prior and a Master, Francis commands that we may never have priors and Masters. We have Guardians and Ministers.

The difference may sound trite, but it’s not. A Prior governs his brothers as their father. The Guardian protects the rule, not the brothers. His role is to see to it that the rule is observed. He is the guardian of the way of life. He commands on all matters that pertain to the way of life. In turn, he is also commanded by those whom he governs. Each house has a house chapter. The brothers vote and the Guardian must obey the vote. The brothers may never vote for anything that is contrary to the wishes of Francis. Francis trumps everyone.

This is another difference. In the Dominican tradition, it is Augustine who trumps everyone, not Dominic. Dominic never claimed for himself the authority that Francis did. That probably has something to do with revelation. Francis bases his order on a revelation that he receives. Dominic bases his order on an inspiration that he has by looking at the needs of the world.

Here again, we’re going to see that Dominican move to respond to the needs of the world, even if it means setting aside that which is more pleasing, the study and contemplation.

The Franciscan moves to respond to the needs of the brotherhood first. The brotherhood, by its very existence proclaims the Gospel to the world, even if the brothers never go out to preach. So you have fraternities like the Franciscans of the Renewal who have no defined ministry. They simply live among the poor and go out everyday and do whatever they come across that needs to be done. That may be feeding a hungry person, joining a protest against abortion or walking the streets saying hello to people. God will lead the way.

In my community, Franciscans of Life, we follow the same rule as other Franciscans. Our manner of activity is different. Our system is to be anonymous. While everyone is pushing for religoius to be more visible, we push ourselves to be less visible. We observe how Francis blended with the common man. He worked in the fields to earn his food. He slept in huts, caves, and cabins, not monasteries or priories. He did not have a habit. His habit was the garb of the farmer. He prayed like the rest of the world prayed, by reciting prayers, not chanting them. Yet, everyone knew him as Brother Francis, because of his great love and kindness.

We get up and go to our pregnancy centers and to our fathers in crisis pregnancies, spend time with them and return to the community house for the remainder of the day where we engage in prayer, writing, studying, manual work or just visiting with the neighbors. In other words, we do nothing that calls too much attention to us. Yet, the hundreds of men and women that we serve each year call us, Brother, because we are their brothers. When they see us, they see us in bundles. Rarely do we go alone.

I spend more time alone, because of my health. I can’t get out too much. So I do a lot of online ministry. But when I do get out, I get out on a team of preachers as was the custom. This way, no one notices me, because I’m just one more grape in the bunch.

I have always believed that the greatest penance for any Franciscan must be canonization. You live your entire life trying to be anonymous and to be a little brother and then you’re thrust into the spotlight.

It’s like the final act of purification before entering heaven. I know it does not work this way, but can you imagine it . . .

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[jwinch2]

Brother,

Thanks for the info as always.

My understanding of Dominican governance is that while they do have a prior and a master, democracy is always the manner in which decisions are made. In fact, I am reading a book by the previous Master of the Order, Fr. Timothy Radcliff, OP, who stated that while it may be inefficient to do so, seeking consensus and even unanimous agreement through vigorous debate when possible is important for order at all times. He went on to say that there are plenty of times when the time it takes for that to occur becomes a problem but the trade off, a strong central governance, is not worth it. Part of his reasoning was that debate before decisions were made is important not only to ensure that good decisions were made and that everyone had a voice, but also that the point of debate from the Dominican approach is to learn from each other.

Is that your understanding as well?

 

[TrueLight]

In terms of the Dominican charism of preaching, does it involve street preaching, or other forms of evangelization such as lectures?

 

[jwinch2]

I randomly came across this Q&A on differences between Dominicans and Franciscans and thought it might be of interest to those following this thread.
Brother Andrew Brookes:

MONDAY, FEBRUARY 07, 2011

Quodlibet 34 - The differences between Dominicans and Franciscans?

I think for the most part it is best to locate any differences in the context of what we hold in common, points which are far more substantial. Thus both orders were started in the opening years of the 13th century in southern Europe. Both are said to be friars, meaning brothers. In simple terms both were inspired by the desire to live the apostolic life in following Jesus. Thus they wanted both to live in community (in fraternity), owning things in common and having a shared prayer life, but also to go out and preach the gospel, living simply and trusting God to provide for their needs. As such they were not to be monks who traditionally stayed within a monastery, but they adapted monastic life to combine it with apostolic mission. Again, in both cases a central group of consecrated men arose but linked to this were enclosed women who prayed for the work and a wider network of lay people. (Active women religious were added to each later in their histories.) Both are Roman Catholic groups approved by the papacy and now international in distribution. Although Francis is remembered for his love of creation, this also marked Dominic and his followers who were committed to defending the goodness of all creation and also human nature against the Cathars. Both groups now undertake a wide range of apostolates.

Some differences emerge from the specific characters and lives of their respective founders. At the time of becoming a founder, Dominic was a priest and he had a focus on good, clear preaching and teaching of the Gospel. For this reason he stressed study as a means to prepare his friars for preaching and teaching that was clear, true and of a good standard. It has meant that Dominicans have since taken part also in the academic life of the church in marked ways. Francis was a lay person, eventually made a deacon, and he stressed a simple life of repentance, of compassion for outcasts, and his preaching was of a much simpler style. This and some subtle theological points have led Dominicans to be associated more with God as Truth and Franciscans with God as Love, but, in my view, far too much can be made of this and really truth and love go together in God and in any authentic Christian life. Although both Dominic and Francis both lived very poor personal lives, Franciscans are seen to place a higher value on poverty as an end in itself in following Jesus whereas Dominicans tend to see it as helping us to live simply and be free to preach and to love and to trust in God, so it is more of a means to an end, perfection consisting in love of God and neighbour.

There have sometimes been historical tensions between the groups but there are also strong links binding us together as parts of the one body of Christ.

I found it interesting at least.

Peace,

 

[jwinch2]

In terms of the Dominican charism of preaching, does it involve street preaching, or other forms of evangelization such as lectures?

All of the above.

 

[JReducation]

Brother,

Thanks for the info as always.

My understanding of Dominican governance is that while they do have a prior and a master, democracy is always the manner in which decisions are made. In fact, I am reading a book by the previous Master of the Order, Fr. Timothy Radcliff, OP, who stated that while it may be inefficient to do so, seeking consensus and even unanimous agreement through vigorous debate when possible is important for order at all times. He went on to say that there are plenty of times when the time it takes for that to occur becomes a problem but the trade off, a strong central governance, is not worth it. Part of his reasoning was that debate before decisions were made is important not only to ensure that good decisions were made and that everyone had a voice, but also that the point of debate from the Dominican approach is to learn from each other.

Is that your understanding as well?

As I understand it, monks and mendicants have always had a democratic system. In fact, monks are the first Socialist Democrats in history. Today’s more conservative Catholics don’t like the term, because Socialism has been equated to Communism and Secularism, fair enough. It’s like gay, it does not mean the same on the street as it does in Deck the Halls.

But even if we change the term, the concept remains. These are societies that are governed by the governed, in other words, by popular vote, but with the common good in mind. In this regard they are different from the rest of the world. The individual good is not the priority, because the greatest good a man can do is to lay down his life for his friends.

To ahcieve this democratic government, they established the Chapter. The guys get together, discuss and vote. What they decide becomes law. Those who are opposed, put distance between their opinions and their wishes in order to submit to what was decided. That’s called obedience. The superior, whether he likes what is decided or not, complies with it and enforces it. This is not a world of opinions as lay people know it. All opinions cease to exist once decisions are made. You become one mind. This is called, thinking with the Church. This is one of the many messages that religious try to get out to the laity through our way of life. We hope that the layman can learn to put aside his opinions once the Church has made up her mind and that he can then think with the Church. This is hard. No one said that it’s easy.

To understand how the Dominicans govern themselves, I think it helps to understand the kind of men and women that enter the Dominican Order. From where I sit, I would say that these are people who begin with the head and end in the heart. They contemplate, think, study, assess, analyze, organize and eventually come to love the Truth that they have known.

Therefore, it stands to reason that they would take the time to discuss, debate, think, listen to each other, think more, pray over what they hear and then reach conclusions. At the end, they are voting for what they love. Those who did not get their way, will simply recalibrate and learn to love what has been accepted by their brethren. There is no resentment and no cry for a rematch.

Franciscans and Benedictines are cut from a different bolt of cloth. The men and women who join them are people who begin in the heart and end in the head. They fall in love with Truth, even though they don’t understand it. Then they proceed to dissect it, think about it, pray over it, discuss it and finally grasp its meaning.

When Franciscans go to a chapter its very quick. A proposition in thrown on the table and people respond through the heart. The question is always the same. Does this lead us to Jesus down the same path that Francis walked? Do you see the heart? It always about Jesus in the footsteps of Franics. There is an emotional engagement. Then begins the analysis. The thing that is proposed has to fit that romantic relationship with Francis and Christ. Better said, it has to lead to Christ down Francis’ path, not Augustine’s, Bernard’s, Benedict’s, Dominic’s or anyone else, but Francis’ path to God.

Once you decide that it does, you vote for it. If you believe that it does not, you vote against it. At the end, you comply with what the majority decides.

We all arrive at the same place, doing the will of God. We start at different gates. The Dominican starts by listening and learning from his brothers. The Franciscan starts by looking back at Francis.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TrueLight]

All of the above.

Sounds great.

 

[jwinch2]

Interesting Brother. Thanks!

 

[jwinch2]

An interesting article on contemplation from the Dominican perspective.
Sr. Brenda Walsh:

SEARCHING FOR A CONTEMPLATIVE WAY OF LIFE

In past decades, many perceived a contemplative way of life as reserved for clergy, nuns or other religious groups. In our time, people of all ages and conditions are seeking something more - hope, meaning and a deeper satisfaction in the core of their being. We live in a culture that emphasizes achievement, success, and productivity a “more is better” approach. Development is seen mainly as material, physical, intellectual and emotional, with little emphasis on a grounding in the spiritual and moral aspects of life. People often rush and push to meet deadlines and overcrowded schedules, with little time for quiet or reflection.

All human beings are capable of experiencing and nurturing contemplation and the invitation is extended to all of us. It is a gift of God and not something we accomplish by our own power. It is an invitation to get in touch with the Divine in ourselves, in others, and in all of creation.

Psalm 46: 10 “Be still and know that I am God” is the foundation for contemplative living. God is to be found right in the moment and circumstance in which we find ourselves. The present moment is where we discover the Divine right in the midst of the ordinariness of our everyday lives, even in the midst of the messiness we sometimes experience. Rev. Daniel OLeary, a priest in West Yorkshire, England, in the May 17th, 08 issue of The Tablet, wrote about contemplation in an article entitled: “Windows of Wonder.” (www. thetablet.co.uk) " It is not a technique to be mastered, but a journey each of us can make to get in touch and become one with the Divine within. It is about the closeness of God to us. Contemplation is a way of being deep inside our daily experience."

Thomas Merton, a well-known writer on the subject, reminds us “We are in contemplation when we perform our daily tasks so as to perceive in them that our lives are not little or insignificant but that what is timeless and eternal is in the ordinariness of little things.” Often we miss the beauty and wonder of the ordinary. Contemplation then, is not something we do. It is how we are present in each moment of our daily lives. Contemplation does not remove us from the pain and struggle of daily living. It helps us keep a proper perspective without resorting to blame, anger or despair in times of challenge.

Contemplation not only gets us in touch with the Divine within, but also helps us to be in touch with what is false or deficient within ourselves that needs to be transformed our anger, defenses, worry, fear, and the need to control. It will help us let go of the unnecessary baggage we carry around in our minds and hearts and submit them to the transforming and healing power of God. This will lead us to a sense of gratitude and wonder at the beauty within us, within others and in all of creation, and will lead us to a new way of seeing and being.

Prayer and meditation are a necessary preparation for getting in touch with the divine in ourselves, in the events and happenings in our own lives and in our relationship with others and the whole of creation. Be still, slow down, be present to who we are right now and let go of the concerns and all that holds us back from a full encounter with the Divine always available to us. In moments of prayer and contemplation and quiet reflection, we touch the inner core of our being and allow the source of our life and well-being to speak within us and lead us to action on behalf of justice in our world We become more aware of our connectedness to the entire human family, not just to the people around us. We hope for and work for a world more like the one God has in mind for the global family. Contemplation and action are not two separate things that we do. They are but two sides of the same coin.

When we pause and ponder what our lives are about, we reach out in love and compassion to bring hope and healing to a broken and bleeding world. We discover God’s transforming presence and power working through us in our world. We also discover that all of creation, all of life vibrates with the divine life and invites us to a daily journey of transformation. Fr. Donald Goergen, OP, a well know Dominican priest, reminds us that “The fruit of our contemplation is a diminished self-centeredness or self-pre-occupation. We become more centered and we discover that our true center is beyond us, that we are not the center of the universe ourselves.” We are led to a deeper self. Our personal transformation connects us to the worlds transformation and allows us to engage the world more deeply from within a deeper Source.

“BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM YOUR GOD.”

 

[JReducation]

In terms of the Dominican charism of preaching, does it involve street preaching, or other forms of evangelization such as lectures?

I’m not sure about street preaching. It’s very common to Franciscans. I’ve never seen Dominicans doing it. If it happens, it’s not too common. We also have to remember that the number of Dominicans are a fraction of the number of Franciscans. If there are Dominican street preachers, they are not going to be as visible. As I said, I’ve never heard of it. Lecturers, yes. Many many lecturers. They’re very good at it

I randomly came across this Q&A on differences between Dominicans and Franciscans and thought it might be of interest to those following this thread.

I found it interesting at least.

Peace,

Brother does a very good job at this. He makes one minor mistake. It’s not a big deal. He said that both orders practice owning property in common. That has always been a sticking point with Franciscans. Francis did not allow communal or individual ownership of property. In some places we’ve had to accept it, because of civil laws. In other places, we do not own communal properties.

For example, the Franciscans who run Francican universities in the USA do own those schools. The law in the USA does not allow for friars to run a state owned college. The arrangement is that the order owns these places, but the Vatican reserves the right to take it away and give it to anyone it pleases without paying for it. It’s a titular ownership. You have the dead to the place, but the boss in Rome can give it away from under you. Most of our houses are own by others.

The rest is on the money. He says something similar to what I say, I said frome the head to the heart for Dominicans and from the heart to the head for Franciscans. He makes the same point. I said that we end up in the same place, he says that you can’t always make such clear cut distinctions.

He explains how poverty is a means for Dominicans, but it’s a goal for Franciscans. That’s right on the money.

He mentions what I had said, Dominic was a priest and his order is an order of priests. Francis was a layman, his order is a brotherhood that includes priests, but it’s not required. It’s funny, because Francis was ordained deacon about three years before he died, but we do not allow permanent deacons. There are a few, but they have to get special permission. That’s because deacons are clerics. If you ordain everyone, then you have an order of clerics. That’s not what Francis started. Dominic did start an order of clerics.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

 

[TrueLight]

He mentions what I had said, Dominic was a priest and his order is an order of priests. Francis was a layman, his order is a brotherhood that includes priests, but it’s not required. It’s funny, because Francis was ordained deacon about three years before he died, but we do not allow permanent deacons. There are a few, but they have to get special permission. That’s because deacons are clerics. If you ordain everyone, then you have an order of clerics. That’s not what Francis started. Dominic did start an order of clerics.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

Yesterday, I attended a Master chant conference run by a Benedictine monk. I was speaking to a woman there and she referred to him as Father so and so. So I asked, confused, “is he a priest”? She didn’t really know.

How to address different religious gets confusing.

Do you know if there are very many Benedictine priests?

 

[JReducation]

Yesterday, I attended a Master chant conference run by a Benedictine monk. I was speaking to a woman there and she referred to him as Father so and so. So I asked, confused, “is he a priest”? She didn’t really know.

How to address different religious gets confusing.

Do you know if there are very many Benedictine priests?

From what I have seen, I would say about 70% of Benedictine monks are priests as well as monks.

When speaking to a monk or a friar, if in doubt, Brother always works, because all monks and friars are religious brothers. There are what we call ordained brothers, which in most communities are called Father.

The Cistercians, Trappists, Missionaries of Charity and multiple Franciscan groups do not allow the use of Father by the priests. You’ll know quickly enough, because they will introduce themselves as Brother.

We have a diocesan retreat coming up. It’s for all priests and brothers an in the diocese. It’s being led by a Brother John Doe. Well, he’s a Trappist. So no one knows if he’s a priest or not and the Trappists are not telling, which I find funny. They won’t even answer the question, they find the question offensive. In our community priests are called Brother, but if you ask, we’ll tell you who is and who is not ordained. We don’t find it offensive. We do find it funny that people need to ask when they’re not going to confession.

I can see asking if you need to go to confession. That makes sense to me. If you’re just around the guys, what difference does it make?

I was told that to a Trappist this is a sign of discrimination on the part of the person doing the asking. That’s why some abbots will not answer the question. They just move on to something else. I guess we’ll find out soon enoug if Br. John Doe is a priest or not. We know that he’s a monk and that he’s a retreat master. We were told, “That’s all you need to know.”

When the boss says that, you just say, “Yes, Sir…” You move along to something else.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TrueLight]

From what I have seen, I would say about 70% of Benedictine monks are priests as well as monks.

When speaking to a monk or a friar, if in doubt, Brother always works, because all monks and friars are religious brothers. There are what we call ordained brothers, which in most communities are called Father.

The Cistercians, Trappists, Missionaries of Charity and multiple Franciscan groups do not allow the use of Father by the priests. You’ll know quickly enough, because they will introduce themselves as Brother.

We have a diocesan retreat coming up. It’s for all priests and brothers an in the diocese. It’s being led by a Brother John Doe. Well, he’s a Trappist. So no one knows if he’s a priest or not and the Trappists are not telling, which I find funny. They won’t even answer the question, they find the question offensive. In our community priests are called Brother, but if you ask, we’ll tell you who is and who is not ordained. We don’t find it offensive. We do find it funny that people need to ask when they’re not going to confession.

I can see asking if you need to go to confession. That makes sense to me. If you’re just around the guys, what difference does it make?

I was told that to a Trappist this is a sign of discrimination on the part of the person doing the asking. That’s why some abbots will not answer the question. They just move on to something else. I guess we’ll find out soon enoug if Br. John Doe is a priest or not. We know that he’s a monk and that he’s a retreat master. We were told, “That’s all you need to know.”

When the boss says that, you just say, “Yes, Sir…” You move along to something else.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Very interesting!

 

[jwinch2]

Very interesting!

Indeed.

 

[JReducation]

Very interesting!

It is?

I guess to us it’s not, because it’s such a common part of Catholicism. Today, people are not as exposed to monks and friars as they were up to about the 1700s.

I find it interesting to read old history books written by Europeans and newer ones written by Americans and watching American Catholic TV, such as EWTN.

In the old European history books, they will refer to the monks as Friar, Fratern, Brother or Dom. In the American books they refer to them as Brother or Father, depending on whether they were ordained or not. Father seems to be very important to Americans.

We (Franciscans) always laugh, because when EWTN transmits from the Vatican, if Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM Cap is preaching, the Italian subtitle will say, Friar Raniero, but the American will not translate it as friar. They translate it as Father. Sometimes you’ll see Fra. Raniero, which is the Latin abbreviation for Frater. The Americans still translate it to Father.

When diocesan priests first came to the USA they were called Mister. That’s why we call St. John Bosco, Don Bosco. It means Mr. Bosco. After a while, the Americans shifted to Father.

Religious superiors and spiritual guides were called Father. It could be a priest or not. He was a spiritual guide. In the East (China, etc) they used the term Sensei, which means “master”. In monastic communities the superior was called Abba (Father), hence the abbot and the abbey (the house led by an abbot)

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[jwinch2]

It is?

I guess to us it’s not, because it’s such a common part of Catholicism.

She and I are both recent converts so lots of things that may be common for someone like yourself who is highly educated in the faith are interesting to newbies like us. Particularly things like this which are not covered as part of the RCIA process.

In fact, I would go so far to say that many long time Catholics find it interesting as well. All you have to do is take a look at the number of threads on secular/third orders in recent months or search on Catholic spirituality to find the same thing. I don’t get the impression that many people, even clergy or long time highly active Catholics know much about religious and their spiritual approach. I think that many of the same are actually searching for this sort of thing, some without even knowing it. Take a look on Amazon sometime at the number of books on “spirituality according to xyz order” or which are titled “praying with xyz” and you will see the same thing.

The activity and involvement of of the laity, from everyone I speak to about the subject, appears to be on the up swing. With that increase in involvement comes a search for a way or an approach if you will to proceed in their own continued formation in the faith. While many are turning to newer lay groups, many also seem to be going back in the tradition of the Church to groups such as yours to find a way of structuring their lives according to God’s plan and while doing so, making sure they are being faithful to the Magesterium in the process. In fact, I think many of the faithful are starving for it.

I’m not sure if you are noticing that same trend or not. I have talked to multiple priests, deacons, and religious and almost to a person they claim that they are noticing something along those lines. I’m not sure I am explaining it all that well so I hope my point is coming across accurately.

 

[OraLabora]

They translate it as Father. Sometimes you’ll see Fra. Raniero, which is the Latin abbreviation for Frater. The Americans still translate it to Father.

Reminds me of an interesting incident that happened almost exactly two years ago at the last Benedictine Oblates’ World Congress in Rome. After a presentation on inter-religious dialogue, at question period, a French oblate rose and made a comment that “like us, the Muslims venerate the Virgin Mary”. Since French is my mother tongue I was listening to him directly in French, instead of on the simultaneous translation headphones. I became aware of a hubbub in the crowd. Turns out the translator had, in English, rendered the phrase “like us, the Muslims worship the Virgin Mary”. It caused a huge controversy among the large number of American delegates. I couldn’t figure out what was going on and neither could the poor gentleman who made the comment. He finally figured it out when someone told him how wrong he was to say that we worship the Virgin Mary. He replied to the American condemning him “but I never said that!”.

It finally became clear that the translator had made as simple mistake. The French oblate felt badly enough about it that he asked to make a statement on the microphone at lunch, and since his English was excellent he set the record straight.

It had me wondering though, if such a simple statement at a conference caused so much controversy, how many wars were started by a mis-translation?