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123me
Guest
[SIGN][/SIGN]Doesn’t the temple point to heaven, the place Christ will be worshipped as King? Just a thought ie it reflects the majesty of the kingdom to come
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Thorns
Guest
Not to boast, but I do live a very simple lifestyle and I receive the most happiness from doing so, even if at times it can be uncomfortable.
Also, my internet doesnt cost me millions.
The pope also advised to drive modest cars for example, something that Jesus would drive. That seems to negate the notion that one can splurge and waste money needlessly (which can be used to help poor.people) as long as one also gives to the poor.
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Thorns
Guest
You miss the point. I have enough just to barely get by, I have no surplus to spend on luxury. Even if I did have a surplus to spend needlessly to live in a mansion just for me, that would be sinful because that surplus could have alleviated human suffering.
Im not saying the Church should nit even have a building for worship, just not an extravagant, multimillion dollar one. Cant you see the difference?
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SyroMalankara
Guest
I’m sure there are even more simpler ways to live and give more to poorer folks.
Many poor have no internet.
Jesus walked, why don’t we all. Besides, before cars, the Pope was carried in something called a Sedia - this was eco-friendly, inexpensive and easy for all to see. Except people called it extravagant and too pomp.
Most of the world’s poor live like this:
flickr.com/photos/ericparker/13369245745/in/photostream/
Would you be willing to give up your wealth of over 1000000X what they make per year and live like this?
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Thorns
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If I gave up my “wealth” to be poor, I wouldn’t be able to help the poor!
The Church spent millions needlessly on a cathedral. Millions! Not spending millions on it wouldn’t have driven the Church into the groubd with poverty AND they’d be able to alleviate human suffering even more with all those EXCESS millions. See the difference?
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Aaah you do understand… when it comes to yourself. Now apply that to everyone else to a degree.
Needless according to you. I’m sure they could have spent more and cut back as needed to get the items that are necessary.
Where would you like the church to cut back first - safety equipment? Licensed architects? Fair wages for construction workers? Insurance for everyone? Permits? Lighting? Books?
Now sure - if millions are being spent - at least let it look like a worship space, not like the box warehouse or space ship monstrosities in some places!
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TimothyH
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Your original post said “Material kingdom.” You did not say “Materialistic kingdom.” Which do you wish to discuss - material kingdom or materialistic kingdom? It is not realistic to think that Christ’s legitimate authority on earth does not need things of the earth with which to operate.
Again, the earliest images we have of the Church is in Acts of the Apostles where people sold their excess and laid the proceeds at Peter’s feet and where Paul collected money from the Churches in Asia Minor for the Apostles in Jerusalem.
-Tim-
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Thorns
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Not just when it comes to me. Again, I repeat, the Church shouldn’t not have a building, just not a multimillion dollar building with a coffee shop and ATM on premises. Cant you see the difference?
According to.me? So youre saying the church needed a multimillion dollar cathedral or else it could not function? An ordinary but nice building wouldn’t suffice?
Multimillion dollar cathedrals, for starters.
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jilly4ski
Guest
I don’t think Jesus would drive, he would walk, ride a donkey, or take a boat… Oh wait
You are assuming that nice places of worship are a waste of money and don’t help the poor. Please don’t put words and ideas in the mouths of poor people. You know that it was mainly the poor who built and funded the great Cathedrals of Europe? (Can you imagine how happy they were that the rich person in town commissioned the art work for the buildings they were building for God, instead of selling it all and “feeding” them. Many poor people put a lot of their money into the Church, her buildings, her art, and her liturgies.
I am considered “poor” and I would be very upset if my local Church sold off all their artwork (what little they have) or if my local Cathedral and Basilica sold off their artwork. Where could I then go to see and learn about the history of my Church and indeed just history (my secular highschool took a field trip to these local Churches to learn about architecture and art.
(They are neo-romanesque and neo-gothic Churches).It also appears that you have a very skewed idea of what our worship is supposed to look like. Such things like precious metals and an appropriate crucifix are mandated by our books and traditions. We come together to worship God as a community. Mass and the Church building are not about temporally helping the poor, it is about God and his Sacrifice (heaven literally touching Earth) and our salvation. Of course, we then are commissioned to go out and evangelize and serve the poor.
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SyroMalankara
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What if the coffee shop is collecting money for the poor, as opposed to having the congregation spend it at starbucks?
What’s wrong with an ATM on premises - you prefer people waste gas, harming the environment and raising their carbon footprint by driving to the nearest bank to get $20 to donate to the poor at the church?
Not every diocese can afford a multimillion dollar cathedral, those that can usually have millions of members. Why shouldn’t they pool their money for something that lasts longer than the next tornado or is in endless need of repairs?
I guess we should start hiring illegal laborers and chinese architects paid less than a living wage to reduce the cost of construction in the 1st world. I’ve worked in the building/construction/architecture field - the upcharge on top of labor and goods is inflated 60%-120%. Tell the builders, plumbers, architects, etc to stop asking for so much money.
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123me
Guest
Well personally we can never give enough to the poor, it is on each of our own conscience. Jesus did not condemn the rich man he did say it is incredibly hard for the rich(er) man to enter the kingdom of God though he added all things are possible with God.
We mustn’t judge each other though on our wealth, Jesus will be our judge.
If we sold everything then we would be in trouble too, if a lot goes to the church who knows perhaps God will bless us, God can intervene if we treat him with the awe he deserves.
We mustn’t judge each other though on our wealth, Jesus will be our judge.
If we sold everything then we would be in trouble too, if a lot goes to the church who knows perhaps God will bless us, God can intervene if we treat him with the awe he deserves.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
If you want to build and maintain any type of building that can be used for hundreds (if not thousands) of people at a time, you simply cannot do so for under a million dollars. Spending “millions of dollars” is not extravagant. That’s the reality of modern real estate.
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Thorns
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Does the cathedral really need a coffee shop and ATM on premises? Does that really lend to the idea of either necessity or modesty in any way?
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SyroMalankara
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Thorns
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If Jesus lived amongst us in the 21st century He’d drive a modest car no doubt. I don’t see Him driving a Lamborgini to strike awe and splendor into the hearts of HIs potential followers so that we take Him more seriously.I don’t think Jesus would drive, he would walk, ride a donkey, or take a boat… Oh wait
That’s not the issue. The issue is the money that was used without necessity could have been used to help the poor while still having a modest building that got the job done. Again, Pope Francis and his car example made it quite clear that the notion of living in luxury only as long as you help the poor is false.
This isn’t necessity. Placing high value on material artwork, even if historical, is contrary to the direct teachings of Christ that urged the rich man to give everything he had to the poor.I am considered “poor” and I would be very upset if my local Church sold off all their artwork (what little they have) or if my local Cathedral and Basilica sold off their artwork. Where could I then go to see and learn about the history of my Church and indeed just history (my secular highschool took a field trip to these local Churches to learn about architecture and art.
Where is such a mandate given?
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Thorns
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It detracts from the concepts of moedesty and humility, especially when the Church itself fervently preaches these things. So by your logic, it’s ok when it comes to the Church but not for anyone else?
To my knowledge, nobody was asked to pool their money for a multimillion dollar cathedral.
How is it that any other organization and its buildings can hold hundreds of people for their services without spending millions and millions of dollars? Sure money is going to be needed, but 18-20 million? Do the floors really have to be made of marble or could any standard floor have done? Seriously?
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SyroMalankara
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Most restaurants, stores, grocers and public sidewalks have ATMs - it doesn’t evoke the concept of opulence to me, only convenience.
So the money appeared out of nowhere, or is your local bishop a secret billionaire investment banker?
You are comparing the Catholic Church to some flybynite outfit which uses a strip mall, and shag carpeting; until the people leave and go to the next flybynite?
Actually - crunch the numbers yourself and see which method is less expensive in the long term. How many millions attend the Catholic parish or cathedral you claim is “too expensive” and for how many years - now break it down. Compare to the rented warehouse with monthly fees for the same amount of time - IF they even last 10yrs.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Thorns, this might interest you:
The Cathedral of Buenos Aires was rebuilt several times since its humble origins in the 16th century. The present building is a mix of architectural styles, with an 18th-century nave and dome and a severe, 19th-century Neoclassical façade without towers. The interior keeps precious 18th-century statues and altarpieces, as well as abundant Neo-Renaissance and Neo-Baroque decoration.
Gee, if then-archbishop Jorge Bergoglio had no problem with this cathedral, what’s your beef?
I notice nobody has yet brought up inflation.
everybody focuses on ‘million dollar’ price tages and seems to forget the fact that what with having to have places built to code (handicap accessibility, etc), and the cost of MATERIALS and LABOR skyrocketing, a million dollar CATHEDRAL isn’t really all that costly.
Look at houses, for pete’s sake. Looked at real estate lately? If people are building relatively MODEST houses which go for a quarter of a million dollars, houses for SINGLE FAMILIES, how is a CATHEDRAL which will serve hundreds if not thousands of people ‘excessive’ to build in AD 2014 for the price you quote?
The Cathedral of Buenos Aires was rebuilt several times since its humble origins in the 16th century. The present building is a mix of architectural styles, with an 18th-century nave and dome and a severe, 19th-century Neoclassical façade without towers. The interior keeps precious 18th-century statues and altarpieces, as well as abundant Neo-Renaissance and Neo-Baroque decoration.
Gee, if then-archbishop Jorge Bergoglio had no problem with this cathedral, what’s your beef?
I notice nobody has yet brought up inflation.
everybody focuses on ‘million dollar’ price tages and seems to forget the fact that what with having to have places built to code (handicap accessibility, etc), and the cost of MATERIALS and LABOR skyrocketing, a million dollar CATHEDRAL isn’t really all that costly.
Look at houses, for pete’s sake. Looked at real estate lately? If people are building relatively MODEST houses which go for a quarter of a million dollars, houses for SINGLE FAMILIES, how is a CATHEDRAL which will serve hundreds if not thousands of people ‘excessive’ to build in AD 2014 for the price you quote?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
ATMs are often located in places where there is high crime traffic, they can be made to ‘skim’ card data, etc. Personally, I would be delighted to find an ATM in a nice safe cathedral.
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PNEUMA
Guest
Revelation 21 “he carried me away to a great, high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It has the glory of God and a radiance like a very rare jewel, like jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It has a great, high wall with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates are inscribed the names of the twelve tribes of the Israelites; 13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.15 The angel[g] who talked to me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width; and he measured the city with his rod, fifteen hundred miles;[h] its length and width and height are equal. 17 He also measured its wall, one hundred forty-four cubits* by human measurement, which the angel was using. 18 The wall is built of jasper, while the city is pure gold, clear as glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city are adorned with every jewel; the first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates are twelve pearls, each of the gates is a single pearl, and the street of the city is pure gold, transparent as glass.”*
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