Split and Edited Title: Catholic Vs Baptist Soteriology Discussion

[as-a-child]

Here’s an old expression: Gold plated junk is still gold plated junk.

By saying that the blood of the lamb has just covered you and you still sin means the blood of the lamb has not been infused into your very soul. Why, because of our wounded nature, and our tendency to have weak wills due to the fall.
Now, how do we ask for forgivness if our future sins are already forgiven. Now if they are already forgiven why say your sorry, Gods already forgiven them. Then by saying your sorry your just puffing yourself up because you beleive you are already forgiven.

If i remember correctly Jesus said we had to do something to abide in him, so that he might abide in us. And it wasn’t just faith.

 

[as-a-child]

Geez the asteriks make that look bad, i did not use harsh language just so you know

 

[Jeanette_L]

When God saves a person by the power of the Gospel and the work of the Holy Spirit a number if thing happen. First all your sins are washed away by the blood of Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:7) Your soul is as pure as gold. Another thing that happen is that you become a new person. (born again)
After we are born again God does not leave us in the world without help. We are indwelled with the Holy Spirit, The Bible tells that "greater is He (Holy Spirit)that is in you than he (Satan) that is in the world and also that sin has no more power over you.
The Bible again tell the God will not allow you the be tempided beyond what you can bear. God gives us a way of ecsape.

And what if that work of the Holy Spirit has not been completed by the time you leave this world? Because you do have a part to play in this, your cooperation with the Spirit will determine how complete His work will be made in you in your lifetime here. We can talk all the talk we want, but you and I both know, even if we are blind to our own failings in our walk with the Lord, and the cleansing that is thwarted by our own fallen will, we can certainly see in those around us the same problem. There are Christians who sincerely believe and trust in Christ as Savior, they read the word, they go to church, they have a good prayer life, but that transformation is thwarted because of sin that is imbedded in the soul. When the transformation is thwarted, and remains so until the end of that person’s life, what then? Do they stand before God, still with a will that has not been completely transformed into one that is in total unity with God, do they just enter into the joy of heaven, not having been made completely into the image and likeness of Christ?

This is where the Evangelical theology falls short. It doesn’t get beyond the surface and into the knitty gritty of the sanctified soul, and what it takes to get there. It is not magic, it is not just a brushstroke of the Spirit, it is an act of will to cooperate with the Holy Spirit, giving in to Him at each turn, working through the pain, until the soul has been scrubbed free from the barnicles of sin and our own will that is opposed to His. We are rebels, and as C.S. Lewis so eloquently says, we have to learn to lay our weapons down. It is a daily act, laying down our weapons of rebellion. If you think you no longer wield these weapons, that your will is no longer rebelling against God because of your being born again, you are only fooling yourself.

When Christ says over and over and over again in Scripture, that it is the one who endures until the end that has eternal life, it’s that endurance part that is the key to all of this. Enduring all that the Spirit has to work out in us, whether it be through spiritual suffering, or persecution, or physical suffering, or whatever He has to allow in our lives to drive out our pride and self will, it is enduring these until the end, *when we have been **made **pure *as gold, that we will finally enter into the joy of our salvation, the joy of eternity with our Creator, free from all the dross.

Pulling verses here and there out of the Bible, out of context and not reading them in light of all Scripture, that only gives you a false idea of what the Christian life is about, and what is expected of us as followers of Him.

 

[Maui71]

Hi Allischalners,

When God saves a person by the power of the Gospel and the work of the Holy Spirit a number if thing happen. First all your sins are washed away by the blood of Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:7) Your soul is as pure as gold. Another thing that happen is that you become a new person. (born again)
After we are born again God does not leave us in the world without help. We are indwelled with the Holy Spirit, The Bible tells that "greater is He (Holy Spirit)that is in you than he (Satan) that is in the world and also that sin has no more power over you.
The Bible again tell the God will not allow you the be tempided beyond what you can bear. God gives us a way of ecsape.

But there is a problem here with your interpretation it is in complete confilct with this verse:

James 2:14-26 Faith and Works

14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

One must look at the context of the scriptures for if one book or letter seems in conflict with another then the interpretation is likely wrong; because the scriptures are not wrong. Further, the earliest Christians those that were ordained by the Apostles themselves, what did they teach before the scriptures were compiled. See, the bible as you know it was not agreed upon till 393 A.D. at the Synod of Hippo (all catholics by the way). From Christ till the reformation no one believed in sola fidei - faith alone. That is a Lutheran doctrine that came about 1,500 years later.

The bible must be harmonious like instruments in an orchestra. It is not a sole artist ripping with a lead guitar while the rest of the band strums. No, it is a choir singing in unison. One section must completely support the next. That belief of sola fidei is in complete conflict with many passages and particularly this paragraph in the bible.

Why don’t you do some research in early Christianity and see what the fathers of the Church taught when it comes to salvation? See the Church could not have been wrong for 1,500 years. That would mean the Apostles, their successors and everyone till Luther was wrong. It would also mean that those who selected the canon of the bible were wrong.

I will clarify my point: it’s that one is not saved by works alone or faith alone but that you cannot divorce works from faith or faith from works. That one is saved through Faith and Works because they are opposite sides of the same coin.

So were as faith and works are in complete harmony with the scriptures faith alone is in dissidence.

Sin: If you are tempted and fall then you are in sin which gives death to your soul. James 1:13-15

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; 14 but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.

God bless,

Maui

 

[jpaul]

Judged for what, the blood of Jesus Christ has washed all my sins away, past present and future. Amen & Amen

Peace and all-good!

Ex-Fundamentalist Protestant turned Catholic faithful - David B. Currie in his book **“Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic” *states: * “Evangelicals start their study of soteriology with the Pauline epistles. They relegate all the rest of the Bible to being a footnote to Paul, including the teaching of Jesus.”

It’s nothing but a born again Marcionite heresy!

Ave Maria!

jpaul

 

[allischalmers]

Peace and all-good!

Ex-Fundamentalist Protestant turned Catholic faithful - David B. Currie in his book **“Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic” *states: * “Evangelicals start their study of soteriology with the Pauline epistles. They relegate all the rest of the Bible to being a footnote to Paul, including the teaching of Jesus.”

It’s nothing but a born again Marcionite heresy!

Ave Maria!

jpaul

I do not know what brand of Evangeical Protestant this guy was but Baptist start their study of soteriotogy on the words of Jesus Christ.
Some Evangelicals that convert to Catholicism always have to find a way to justify it

 

[allischalmers]

Most Baptists (and other Evangelicals/Fundamentalist) would read them (ECFs) and swear they weren’t really Christians either, even if they were the only ones around!

And I don’t want to sound flip, you know. I understand all too well the fear involved in such a discovery and not wanting on any level to go there. I wish everyone the courage to just ask for guidance, even if it means the worst case scenario is true.

 

[allischalmers]

Hi Allischalners,

But there is a problem here with your interpretation it is in complete confilct with this verse:

James 2:14-26 Faith and Works

14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

God bless,

Maui

Maui

I want to show that from the very begining of your post that you are wrong.
Notice what Peter did not say. he did not say, If someone has faith but does not have works, can that faith save him?
Peter says," if someone SAYS he has faith.
Peter is talking about someone who is only professing to have faith but has no real faith.
Real faith brings forth works.

 

[allischalmers]

Hi Allischalners,

But there is a problem here with your interpretation it is in complete confilct with this verse:

James 2:14-26 Faith and Works

14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

God bless,

Maui

Maui

I want to show that from the very begining of your post that you are wrong.
Notice what Peter did not say. he did not say, If someone has faith but does not have works, can that faith save him?
Peter says," if someone SAYS he has faith.
Peter is talking about someone who is only professing to have faith but has no real faith.
Real faith brings forth works.

 

[as-a-child]

Here’s a question then: What defines a “work”?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

as-a-child:

Here’s an old expression: Gold plated junk is still gold plated junk.

Here’s another: if it’s blue, sits on a perch, and says “chirp” then it’s probably a budgie.

Listen: You know this notion of post-Salvation immunity to the ‘stain of sin’ is a problem.

For the person who has been saved but who backslides and sins, saying he has no sin-stain on his soul is all jim-dandy. This is to say that God may alright with it. The saved person may be alright with it.

Listen: But what of the other guy? The victim of the sin? Has the saved person no compassion for that other guy? Has he no remorse and feeling of deep shame and regret for the injury done to the other guy? Even if only to give a bad example of life after Salvation?

Be honest! Think about it! Isn’t this freedom from future sin-stain just a ploy to anaesthetize you from knowing the depth, the height, the width of your soul crying out to you that something is wrong with this picture?

Ever thought what it must be like to want salvation so badly and to get so close, so so close, and then have it snatched away from you by plain, simple, wrong beliefs?

Listen: Do you think that the adversary doesn’t hang around before altar calls waiting to pounce on the well-intentioned and hungry among us by feeding our fallen fears, hatreds, and ambitions and by promising a life of name-it-and-claim-it ease?

Ever thought about that? Well, maybe you should think about it. Think about the cost of not taking this really seriously. What do you think persevering until the end means? If Christian life were a walk in the park what need would there be to persevere?

 

[mgrfin]

And I suppose that Catholic’s do’nt do that?

That quote about past, present and FUTURE sins is more likely a statement to come from Martin Luther. He was the one to say he didn’t have to have ‘good works’ of repentance…something like : Sin boldly, but believe more boldly. He had no compunction for his sin apparently, whereas we must make a firm resolve not to sin again in the future (Act of Contrition), otherwise our present sins are not forgiven.
mgrfin

 

[CThomas]

I have to say that much of the view of Protestantism that I’m reading here bears little resemblance to the Protestantism that is taught and practiced at my church, at least. There seems to be this idea that because we believe that we are saved by faith from past and future sins at the time of conversion that we have a casual or permissive attitude toward sin. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Christian life is all about growing in Christ and developing our sanctification over time. Sin creates terrible costs for people both in this life and in the next (where our reward in heaven depends on our degree of sinfulness here). It’s just that the knowledge that our eternal destiny is secure frees us to avoid sin and obey God’s commands for the right reasons – out of love and reverence for God, and the incalculable gratitude we have to Christ for His ultimate sacrifice for us – rather than out of fear of damnation. Nothing could be more liberating than the knowledge that God’s love for us as His adopted children is absolutely unconditional, and that we can work toward getting ever closer to Christ-like behavior without any fear of our ultimate standing with God.

I don’t mean this to sound like a Protestant sermon. The point is that you’ve got to avoid misunderstanding what Christian liberty is all about from the Protestant view – just as Catholics frequently caution us not to take a slanted view of Catholic doctrines. The idea that sin is somehow of less concern to us because of our soteriology is utterly alien to everything any true Christian I’ve ever known would believe.

Regards to all,

CThomas

 

[mgrfin]

Peace and all-good!

Ex-Fundamentalist Protestant turned Catholic faithful - David B. Currie in his book **“Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic” *states: * “Evangelicals start their study of soteriology with the Pauline epistles. They relegate all the rest of the Bible to being a footnote to Paul, including the teaching of Jesus.”

It’s nothing but a born again Marcionite heresy!

Ave Maria!

jpaul

Well, your statement about everything follows St. Paul for Evangelicals might well answer a problem that has been gnawing at me for the longest time: they preach the OT, and Paul and Revelations, but I never hear them preach the words of Jesus from the New Testament. Jesus is more Catholic, if you catch my drift.
Thanks for the insight.
mgrfin

 

[mgrfin]

Responding to C Thomas:
You say that being already forgiven for future sins makes you a better Christian, because it somehow obliges you to live up to the forgiveness already given you.

Pschologically, is that true? If Mommy tells Johnnie not to take the cookies out of the jar, but if he does so, it is okay, cause he is forgiven in advance, and won’t be punished.

Of course, there are exceptions, but human nature being what it is, it is so easy to slip in habitual sin, cause I and God just wave it off - like it is okay. Maybe that is how Lutherans and others handle this justification and grace issue nowadays. It is the philosophy of the naturally good man, the ethician, who follows the Golden Rule, who doesn’t believe in God, but is “good”, cause that is the right thing.

God demands more of us than the philosophy of the naturally good man.

 

[CThomas]

mgrifin, I’ll concede that human nature is a mixed bag. In some contexts, the threat of punishment can help force people to obey rules. But I would make two observations in response to that. First, luckily we don’t have to rely on human nature, because the Holy Spirit helps to sanctify Christians progressively over time in ways that would be impossible to us through our human will. And second, I was careful to point out that Protestants do recognize that sin leads to real consequences for saved Christians. They lead to real problems in this life, and they affect our future rewards in heaven. So there is a real understanding that sin entails an important price, and that should scare us. The point is just that we know we won’t get the death penalty for our sins. Our salvation is assured, so we don’t have to fear hell.

Regards,

CThomas

 

[as-a-child]

The point is just that we know we won’t get the death penalty for our sins. Our salvation is assured, so we don’t have to fear hell.

But the point is after death comes judement. You cannot be judge totally worthy of heaven till after you die because of free will. As long as ther is breath in your body there is a chance you may turn away. That’s why paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling, so we can persevere to the end.The crown only comes at the finish line which is death.

 

[ExREFORM]

To Forever Baptist
allischalmers
I’m not sure if you’re aware that John Calvin condemned anabaptist such as Charles Spurgeon as false teachers. I think you should research John Calvin before you quote him. Furthermore, not all Baptist believe in “once saved always saved”.
Here’s a few verses for you to read.
Mathewt 6:14,15
“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mathew 18:35
So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Mark 11:25,26
“And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
1 Timothy 1:18-19
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
1 Timothy 4:1
“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons”
Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
John 6:66
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
1 Corinthians 9:27
No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
James 5:19,20
My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.

“Calvinism is nothing more that a nickname for Biblical Christianity’” C.H. Spurgeon
“There is no water in the Bible just Jesus Christ” C H Spurgoen

 

[Ani_Ibi]

CThomas:

I have to say that much of the view of Protestantism that I’m reading here bears little resemblance to the Protestantism that is taught and practiced at my church, at least.

I understand how this could be true. Please try to understand that it is frequently difficult for us to zoom in on Reformist doctrines and discuss them because some are defined differently between denominations; some may not be defined differently but emphasize different things; some believers hear what pastors say differently.

So it is not with malice to misrepresent Reformist thinking that we post what we do. We just have to start somewhere.

CThomas:

There seems to be this idea that because we believe that we are saved by faith from past and future sins at the time of conversion that we have a casual or permissive attitude toward sin. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Step us through this then please. Thank you.

CThomas:

The Christian life is all about growing in Christ and developing our sanctification over time.

See, this is where you lose us. It seems that we are told on the one hand that yall are Once Saved Always Saved. Now you are telling us that it is more like Gradually Saved Gradually Saved. Could you step us through this one too? Thank you.

CThomas:

Sin creates terrible costs for people both in this life and in the next (where our reward in heaven depends on our degree of sinfulness here). It’s just that the knowledge that our eternal destiny is secure frees us to avoid sin…

Whew. You gotta know that this seems so contradictory to us. Our eternal destiny is secure on the one hand, but our reward in heaven depends on our degree of sinfulness on the other hand.

This just seems like it is no longer a heaven versus hell deal. It seems like a heaven-with-the-swimming-pool versus a heaven-with-a-heat-wave deal. How do you know that a person won’t interpret heaven-with-a-heat-wave as hell? Hint: is this not a variation of what parent would give his son a serpent or a rock when his son asks for bread?

CThomas:

…and obey God’s commands for the right reasons – out of love and reverence for God, and the incalculable gratitude we have to Christ for His ultimate sacrifice for us – rather than out of fear of damnation.

The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord. Right? Why? Because any wise person loves the Lord and fears being separated from Him. Separation from the Lord is hell; damnation.

CThomas:

Nothing could be more liberating than the knowledge that God’s love for us as His adopted children is absolutely unconditional, and that we can work toward getting ever closer to Christ-like behavior without any fear of our ultimate standing with God.

I can understand this. But this does not mean that there are no consequences for post-Salvation sin. If a son steals an inheritance from his cousin, does a just parent not require the son to take the consequences? How can the son be truly close to the parent until he has made right what he made wrong?

So, if he does not make right what he makes wrong, then it follows that he is not close to the parent. How ‘saved’ is that? Moreover, in a world view of OSAS – wherein the possibility of being told that we weren’t saved in the first place because we sinned hangs like a sword of Damocles over our heads – what would the son do first? Make right what he made wrong or lie?

Now let’s talk about fear.

CThomas:

I don’t mean this to sound like a Protestant sermon. The point is that you’ve got to avoid misunderstanding what Christian liberty is all about from the Protestant view – just as Catholics frequently caution us not to take a slanted view of Catholic doctrines.

Questioning and requiring logical answers is not necessarily slanted.

CThomas:

The idea that sin is somehow of less concern to us because of our soteriology is utterly alien to everything any true Christian I’ve ever known would believe.

Then truly you gotta wonder what that small stirring is all about.

 

[as-a-child]

Great now on page 2 we have baptist Vs. reform calvinism. I think that sums up this thread nicely.