Split and Edited Title: Catholic Vs Baptist Soteriology Discussion

[Jerry-Jet]

Ani Ibi: Do all of the other saints in Heaven have equal perfection with Mary?

If they do–if there is no difference between them–then why would her intercession be worth more?

 

[allischalmers]

Catholics believe that different people will have different mounts of glory in Heaven–so what?

That has nothing to do with once Saved always Saved which is a lie because it destroys freedom of will given to man by God or the equally repugnant Calvinist conception of Double Predestination which claims that God predestines people to Hell like a Satanic monster!

But of course there are 10 zillion different forms of baptists–Freewill Baptists are Arminian and Don’t believe in OSAS.

Primitive Baptists Do believe in Double Predestination and are Calvinist.

And some Baptists claim to not believe in OSAS but do claim to believe in eternal security.

Course Baptists contradict themselves and profess to believe in the priesthood of all believers but then will throw out any Baptist pastor that exercises that priesthood of all believers in any way that they do not like.

But the one thing that does remain constant among Baptists is the narrow mind.

It goes like this–Baptists think that their local church works best when everyone in the congregation believes about the same and pats each other on the back and when every year a few more people get saved at a revival–usually in August.

Any question where they have to think–where they do not have an easy to quote authority–well that’s just the devil stirring something up!

They wouldn’t even really want to think about the differences between different kind of Baptists.

All that matters is a personal relationship with Christ–that’s good enough–sing “Blessed Assurance” until death–and hopefully hear some great singing, preaching, and eat some good food on the grounds after church.

That’s about the Depth of the spirituality of the average Baptist!

And the ones who are deeper than that in the Baptist faith think that is OK!

With a mindset like that who would even dream of thinking about anything those Catholics believed–the Methodists are trouble enough anyway!

I think that it was Jesus that said it was the things that came out of a persons mouth that defiled them

God Bless, Jerry-Jet

 

[Tomster]

mgrfin,

Well said! If I may add? It was a peculiarity of the teaching of Calvin that he held it to be impossible for a man who had once been justified to fall away. Luther did not go quite so far as this, but he taught that justification can be lost only by the sin of infidelity; in other words, by the loss of that faith which, according to his own system, justifies a man. I say this to point out the differences in these two fallible teachers in a matter that cannot be considered minor. Since both Calvin and Luther are fallible teachers, which one does a Protestant believe? And by whose authority?

Another tidbit. In the 16th century Calvin put forward a false view of Predestination which has become famous. He taught that from all eternity God definitely and explicitly chose some men for eternal life, and just as definitely and explicity other men for eternal damnation, his own glory being the end he sought in either case. Nothing that a man is going to do affects in any way that terrible decree by which heaven is chosen for some, hell for others. As a necessary consequence we must say that God does not will the salvation of all men; he wills the salvation for only the elect, and the rest he positively wills to force into hell. Such, stated in a few words, is the Calvinist theory of Predestination. It is easy to see the fundamental error - namely, its denial that God really wills the salvation of any but the elect. As can be demonstrated, God wills the salvation of all and gives sufficient grace to enable them to save their souls.

So much for Sola Scriptura and the fallible interpreters of Sacred Scripture.

Tomster

 

[as-a-child]

Ani Ibi: Do all of the other saints in Heaven have equal perfection with Mary?

If they do–if there is no difference between them–then why would her intercession be worth more?

There are differences between them because we do not cease to exist as individuals once we are in heaven. If there were no difference then we are talking about the buddist idea of becoming one with the universe and the total annhilation of self.

Another old addage: God loves all his children though each child is different.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Jerry-Jet:

Ani Ibi: Do all of the other saints in Heaven have equal perfection with Mary?

Jerry-Jet: what does equal perfection mean? What does less perfection mean? What does more perfection mean? Eventually for us to have a discussion on this we are going to have to speak the same language.

Jerry-Jet:

If they do–if there is no difference between them–then why would her intercession be worth more?

Please read my posts 41 43 44.

Heaven would be a state of perfection. We may have different rewards, but they are equal rewards.

So it would follow that folks in heaven could intercede according to their perfected gifts and rewards which are different among each other.

Purgatory would be a state of imperfection working toward a state of perfection. People would have different but unequal rewards.

So we are talking about two things here: perfection and rewards. They are not the same.

 

[as-a-child]

It may also be good to restate that prugatory is not a second chance.

It’s just docking the boat to clean off the barnacles.

 

[allischalmers]

In attempting to “show” that maui is wrong, however, you have simply shown a bias toward what you already believe. You presume there is such a thing as saving faith apart from works and you project that presumption into the discussion. James would never say, “If someone has faith but does not have works” because THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FAITH WITHOUT WORKS! That is the simple rebuttal to your claims. That is why he is careful to include, “If someone SAYS he has faith, but does not have works…” In doing so he is reiterating the fact that there is no such thing as faith without works, there are only those who “say” they have faith but who don’t. In short, there are only two types of people who dont produce works: those without faith who claim no faith and those without faith who “say” they have faith. In addition, when you look at the rest of what James says in this chapter, your attempt above it at explaining away fails miserably to reconcile his comments.

The point that I was trying was this, Maui made the statement in his poat that we are saved by FAITH AND WORK and he quote James to prove it
James is saying that works is the evidents of true faith.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I’ll agree that perfection and rewards are not the same.

I’ll also posit that the rewards of a child who dies immediately after first communion are not the same as the rewards of St. Peter.

But the least in heaven will have nothing but perfect love and no envy for the greatest in Heaven and the greatest in Heaven will have nothing but perfect love and no envy for the rewards of the least in Heaven.

I don’t know if the rewards of the least in Heaven and the rewards of the greatest in Heaven can be compared.

Has St. Thomas Aquinas ever addressed this question?

P.S. James says what the Holy Spirit inspired him to Inerrantly write in James 2:24. That makes no provision whatsoever for “Faith Alone”. If you believe otherwise you are saying that the Holy Spirit lies!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Tomster:

Well said! If I may add? It was a peculiarity of the teaching of Calvin that he held it to be impossible for a man who had once been justified to fall away. Luther did not go quite so far as this, but he taught that justification can be lost only by the sin of infidelity; in other words, by the loss of that faith which, according to his own system, justifies a man.

Luther said different things according to the political climate he found himself in.

Philip of Hesse wanted to take a second wife. Bigamy was a capital crime, so to cover himself, Hesse wanted Luther’s permission in writing. Luther complied, saying that there was nothing wrong with bigamy, but stipulated that it must be kept secret.

When it came to the attention of the officials, Luther said that his advice was under the seal of the Confessional.

He then advised Hesse to say that his second wife was a concubine. Hesse, however, refused to lie. Luther then left him to his own devices.

 

[as-a-child]

quate: "The point that I was trying was this, Maui made the statement in his poat that we are saved by FAITH AND WORK and he quote James to prove it
James is saying that works is the evidents of true faith.

I’ll ask this question again : what is a “work”

 

[mgrfin]

I don’t know. I don’t get the “Once Saved Always Saved” thing. Nearly every chapter in the New Testament, regardless of the Book, urges us to good works. Is God making fun of us: “do good works, but I am not going to give you any reward, any merit”.

Apart from faith, it just doesn’t make any sense. But we Catholics are getting to them.

I heard Paula White on TBN quote from St. James: : Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves". Jam 1:22. I almost fell off my chair. Of course, what she wanted the doers to do was to pick up the phone and make a pledge for about $60. It’s been a long time since I have heard a Catholic priest preach for money - but we are getting into heaving amounts with Evangelists. Over and above tithing, which is 10% of my salary, they want, "$1,000, or ‘month’s mortgage’, and such. I can image a priest asking for a tithe, He would be booed out of the sanctuary. Asking for your next mortgage payment? He’d be strung up from above the pulpit. The local catholic parish still gets small change thrown into the pot.

If a priest gets called to my deathbed, he doesn’t check the parish rolls to see who I am and what I donate.

“What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he has faith, but has not works? Shall the faith be able to save him?..So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself?” James 2: 14-17.

The way Protestants handle such as they is to deny these verses their validity. But, for us, works must go hand and hand with faith in order to be saved. God can be bought into giving us a blessing, an anoiting, so long as we kick into the ministers?

How many poor people on a fixed income haven’t gotten into financial trouble by giving into such guilt as they lay on people about contributing?

It is religion for money. If there was no money aspect, there would be a TBN. It is simony, buying God’s blessing for a contriubtion. God doesn’t need anybody’s money to prove anything, or to attain grace and salvation.

Yes, my dear evangelical friends, 'deceiving your own selves", 'do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith ONLY."
Jam 2.

 

[Philthy]

The point that I was trying was this, Maui made the statement in his poat that we are saved by FAITH AND WORK and he quote James to prove it
James is saying that works is the evidents of true faith.

Yes, we know what point you were trying to make - and we know it was through a biased interpretation of Scripture encumbered with preconceived notions. What you have simply done here is restated that faulty interpretation without a shred of new evidence to support it. That hardly carries any weight.
James never once says that the point he is trying to make is simply that works are the evidence of true faith. James chooses to say that a man is “justified by works and not by faith alone”. It is plain and simple, and he doesnt add the qualifier that he is talking about someone who “says” he has faith as you first unsuccessfully argued.

 

[Philthy]

“What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he has faith, but has not works? Shall the faith be able to save him?..So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself?” James 2: 14-17.

The way Protestants handle such as they is to deny these verses their validity.

Well, that is the only tactic left. The first tactic: “Lets declare that this book isn’t Scripture” didnt work as planned, so they had to fall back on plan B: “Lets say that this verse doesnt mean what it means - who’s to say who’s right and who’s wrong?”

 

[Pax]

We all at one time or another are going to sin but because our sin have already been dealt with when Christ died on the cross there is not stain sin on the soul.
However when we do sin it effects our relationship and followship with God and other Christains. We make that relationship right when we come to God and ask forgiveness.

This is highly problematic and contrary to scripture generally and specifically. Please remember that Adam and Eve were originally in a perfect state of justification. They were in the “proper relationship” with God. Their sin broke their relationship with God and had dire consequences for mankind.

Jesus passion, death, and resurrection provides us with “justification” and with “sanctification.” We are initailly saved by grace through faith by the merits of Jesus Christ and this is not of our doing. This is made clear by Eph 2:8-9. Likewise, verse ten tells us something more about our justification. It says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Clearly, we are created in Christ Jesus for good works and these good works come from the Father. This is completely and perfectly congruent with James 2:24. The faith and the works are thus inseparable.

Now the following is very important. Everything quoted thus far shows that everything comes from God to us. Salvation is a gift from God.

Now look at Romans 6:23 which says

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Notice that the free gift of God is eternal life. This is what God gives to us. The wages of sin is death. This is what we do that breaks our relationship with God and can cause us to lose eternal life.

Sin doesn’t simply damage our relationship/fellowship with God in some minor way. Sin brings death and condemnation. Fortunately, the Father is always calling us home like the prodigal son and offering us forgiveness. This forgiveness is not automatic. We must repent whenever we do sin. When we sin our broken relationship is like that of the prodigal son. As Christians we are members of the household of God. Like the prodigal son we can leave the household and be “dead.” Then like the prodigal son, we can return in repentence to the father and “be alive again.” [See Luke 15:24-25 for “dead… and alive again.”]

Scripture is very clear about all of this and there is nothing that suggests that sin merely hurts our fellowship with God. The wages of sin is death.

 

[mgrfin]

Yes, we know what point you were trying to make - and we know it was through a biased interpretation of Scripture encumbered with preconceived notions. What you have simply done here is restated that faulty interpretation without a shred of new evidence to support it. That hardly carries any weight.
James never once says that the point he is trying to make is simply that works are the evidence of true faith. James chooses to say that a man is “justified by works and not by faith alone”. It is plain and simple, and he doesnt add the qualifier that he is talking about someone who “says” he has faith as you first unsuccessfully argued.

I am amused how Protestants are upset with the Epistle of St. James. They insist that the Epistle is not part of the Canon, that we misinterprete, that we can’t read, etc.

They really think we are able to read simple sentences of James:
“Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only” James 2:24.

Contrast this simple, easily understandable verse with complicated ones from St. Paul. Luther curse St. James, and not satisfied with proofs from Paul, he added words to the Epistle:
Rom 2:28 For we account a man to be justified by faith ONLY (which is not in the Greek), without the works of the law."

“Works of the law”…means the Old Testment liturgical requirements, like circumcision and observances as contained in the Torah.

And some more James: 2:14: What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he has faith, but has not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 2:17 “So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.”

I think this Protestant issue of Faith without works is beaten to death. That Luther should discover his new doctrine after 1,500 years - amazing.

 

[Zooey]

I’m sorry, but this doesn’t make sense. There is no such thing as more perfection or less perfection. There is just perfection. Catholics get perfection through Purgatory.

As do we all, all of us who get there.
I have never understood the allergy that some people have to the word purgatory…I feel sometimes, like I have been thrown into a time warp, & landed with people who took a bath once a year, whether they needed it or not.
Because that’s all the word means, people: “washed away”; “fully bathed”. Sounds like a good thing to me…

 

[Tomster]

I’m sorry, but this doesn’t make sense. There is no such thing as more perfection or less perfection. There is just perfection. Catholics get perfection through Purgatory.

Ani Ibi,

Heaven will not be the same for all. As in the firmament star differs from star in glory, so also is it in the heavenly abode of the Blessed. The principle of celestial happiness will always be the same - viz., the sight of God face to face - and the happiness even of the lowliest Saint will immeasurably exceed what we can now imagine. Yet their glory and happiness will differ.

The gift of the Beatific Vision will be bestowed on the Blessed in unequal measure, according to their merits.

He who has more love will see God more perfectly and be more blessed. This inequality of heavenly glory has been solemnly defined by the Council of Trent (Session 6, canon 32) against the Reformers, who sought the root of justification in the imputed merits of Christ and, as these are equal for all, could not admit varying degrees of reward in heaven.

Tomster

 

[allischalmers]

quate: "

I’ll ask this question again : what is a “work”

Read John 6: 28 & 29

 

[Contarini]

That quote about past, present and FUTURE sins is more likely a statement to come from Martin Luther.

Luther believed that all your sins are forgiven as long as you believe. However, he also said explicitly that if you do not struggle to live a holy life you will eventually stop believing in Christ and will be condemned.

The quote “sin boldly, but believe more boldly” is taken out of context–it was a hyperbolic statement in a letter to a scrupulous friend who obsessed about his sins.

He had no compunction for his sin apparently, whereas we must make a firm resolve not to sin again in the future (Act of Contrition), otherwise our present sins are not forgiven.
mgrfin

Quite the contrary–he taught that the life of a Christian is a life of continual repentance. However, he did not think that our forgiveness depends on the quality of our contrition.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Luther’s was a religion of free enterprise, Calvin’s of capital accumulation. In such a system as the Calvinist theocracies… the poor were convicted prima-facie by their situation.

Every member of the elite might not be a member of the elect, but the poor, and especially the indigent poor, obviously were not. The incompetent, the wastrel, the drunkard, and all those who lived only for pleasure rather than profit were self-evidently damned…

This is a crude-oversimplification of an influential but controversial theory by Max Weber. It is not true that Calvinists thought poor people were damned. That is nonsense. Of course they thought that if people lived in habitual sin of any kind–whether drunkenness or sloth or greed or pride or whatever–they were unlikely to be among the elect.

The article also confuses “Calvinists” with “Puritans” who were a subset of Calvinism. Weber admitted that his description of “Calvinism” was drawn largely from Puritanism and did not apply to Calvin himself.

I think it’s true that Calvinism helped create a middle-class ethic, but the article you are quoting is nothing more than caricature.

Edwin