Split and Edited Title: Catholic Vs Baptist Soteriology Discussion

[defenderoftruth]

A rule I use for bible interpretation is, when the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. Therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning, unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages, and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. God, in revealing His word, neither intends nor permits the reader to be confused. He wants His children to understand. I believe that the way we read and our interpretation of scripture determines our theology, our differences and our similarities

There is a problem with your line of thinking, how can I say that? Well 10,000+ denominations show that the above doesn’t work. We have the faith ONCE HANDED DOWN by the Jesus Christ/apostles/early church contained in the bible and early church writings. Those verses you and all the other protestants fight over and disagree on have been explained by early church testimony. (you know those guys that canonized the bible?) God isn’t “revealing” anything about scripture he’s already revealED it. Once for all delivered unto the saints now all you have to do is follow it, not try to interpet it just follow it. Read the Ante-Nicene/Post Nicene Fathers you’ll understand all those scriptures that 10,000+ denominations disagree on. Catholics read the bible and at face value and we follow what the early church ie tradition that is closest to the apostles says on the matter ie the church. You have only subjective feelings, commentaries written in the 1600-1800’s and later with their opinions and or sects beliefs. I would rather follow the traditions of the early church on scripture interpetations, not my own possibly flawed views.

I’m sorry if this sounds “rude”. I’m working on my meekness. “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”? There is just so much that protestants are missing. First and foremost baptism-it’s remission of sins that is where and when they get off track and it goes down hill from there. They may be baptized but they believe and teach contrary to plain scripture and early church oral tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6). Until you realize your bible didn’t just magically drop out of the sky put together and instead was canonized by those that had the faith once delivered we will continue to disagree and it will be futile to carry on a conversation with you.

 

[allischalmers]

There is a problem with your line of thinking, how can I say that? Well 10,000+ denominations show that the above doesn’t work. We have the faith ONCE HANDED DOWN by the Jesus Christ/apostles/early church contained in the bible and early church writings. Those verses you and all the other protestants fight over and disagree on have been explained by early church testimony. (you know those guys that canonized the bible?) God isn’t “revealing” anything about scripture he’s already revealED it. Once for all delivered unto the saints now all you have to do is follow it, not try to interpet it just follow it. Read the Ante-Nicene/Post Nicene Fathers you’ll understand all those scriptures that 10,000+ denominations disagree on. Catholics read the bible and at face value and we follow what the early church ie tradition that is closest to the apostles says on the matter ie the church. You have only subjective feelings, commentaries written in the 1600-1800’s and later with their opinions and or sects beliefs. I would rather follow the traditions of the early church on scripture interpetations, not my own possibly flawed views.

I’m sorry if this sounds “rude”. I’m working on my meekness. “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”? There is just so much that protestants are missing. First and foremost baptism-it’s remission of sins that is where and when they get off track and it goes down hill from there. They may be baptized but they believe and teach contrary to plain scripture and early church oral tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6). Until you realize your bible didn’t just magically drop out of the sky put together and instead was canonized by those that had the faith once delivered we will continue to disagree and it will be futile to carry on a conversation with you.

There are over one hundred and fifty verses in the New Testament that tell us that salvation is by faith, faith that Jesus Christ is who the Bible says he is, faith that Jesus Christ died on the cross, was buried and rose again the third day. faith that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins so that we do not have to pay the penalty, faith that the blood of Jesus washed away all our sin.
This may sound rude but anyone that beleives that we are saved any other way is not saved at all

 

[Philthy]

There are over one hundred and fifty verses in the New Testament that tell us that salvation is by faith, faith that Jesus Christ is who the Bible says he is, faith that Jesus Christ died on the cross, was buried and rose again the third day. faith that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins so that we do not have to pay the penalty, faith that the blood of Jesus washed away all our sin.
This may sound rude but anyone that beleives that we are saved any other way is not saved at all

The question remains, however, if we lose our faith in Jesus do we lose our salvation?
The next question is, what constitutes “losing faith” in Jesus?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Salvation never has been a once only instantaneous event.

If that’s all it is just do whatever you want to do–if God wants to save you He’ll save you anyway and if you’re once saved always saved you won’t lose your salvation so what does it matter?

The only one who could come up with something that ludicrous would be Satan!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

If Calvinist are more certained for their own salvation why are Calvinists churches spending millions of dollars every year to send missionarys all over the world?

I gather that not all Calvinists subscribe to predestination. But those who do: what on earth would such a Calvinist missionary do all day? Ain’t nobody to save.

 

[Contarini]

I gather that not all Calvinists subscribe to predestination. But those who do: what on earth would such a Calvinist missionary do all day? Ain’t nobody to save.

A belief in unconditional predestination does not make human effort irrelevant. Ask any Augustinian or Thomist Catholic. (Yes, I know there are differences between Catholic Augustinianism and Calvinism, but they are not relevant to this issue.)

Edwin

 

[Pixie_Dust]

There are over one hundred and fifty verses in the New Testament that tell us that salvation is by faith, faith that Jesus Christ is who the Bible says he is, faith that Jesus Christ died on the cross, was buried and rose again the third day. faith that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins so that we do not have to pay the penalty, faith that the blood of Jesus washed away all our sin.
This may sound rude but anyone that beleives that we are saved any other way is not saved at all

Well I say I’m saved by the grace of God, does that mean I’m not?

 

[mgrfin]

Well I say I’m saved by the grace of God, does that mean I’m not?

Pixie,

Just 3 days to go. The devil is sending out his legions against that day, but the good is on your side, and St. Michael the Archangel, and your own Guardian Angel are protecting you:

Prayer to St. Michael:
“Holy Michael, the Archangel, defend us in the battle; be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do thou O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and the evil spirits who roam through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen”

And to your own Angel:

"Angel of God, my guardian dear, to whom His love commits me here. Ever this day, be at my side, to light and guide, to rule and guide. Amen.

Peace
mgrfin

 

[Legionary2]

Amen to that brother!

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38-39

 

[mgrfin]

The question remains, however, if we lose our faith in Jesus do we lose our salvation?
The next question is, what constitutes “losing faith” in Jesus?

If we lose faith in Jesus, we have lost santifying grace (justification) to you. If you die that way, yes, you lose salvation.

Losing faith in Jesus means commission of serious sin, including but not only sins against faith.

Remember, we don’t accept that OSAS.

Peace,
mgrfin

 

[AdDeiGloriamNKU]

If we only need faith in Jesus to be saved, what about Satan and the other fallen angels? Does scripture reveal that Satan has faith that Jesus is the Son of God? Is Satan saved?

 

[mgrfin]

If we only need faith in Jesus to be saved, what about Satan and the other fallen angels? Does scripture reveal that Satan has faith that Jesus is the Son of God? Is Satan saved?

The Devil had his chance. He lost heaven and he was thrown into hell for all eternity.

Matt: 7:21ff “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doth the will of my Father in heaven, he shall enter the Kingdom of heaven.”"

The devil doesn’t need faith. He already knows that Jesus is Lord.
He doesn’t have efficacious faith; he was tested and lost out in an act of rebellion.

Prosit
mgrfin

 

[lyle]

Did Christ die for all ? If so then all men would be saved. When we read verses in the bible for instance 1Timothy 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved”. Does this mean all men without exception? No this means that all men meaning both Jews and Gentiles would be saved. Does all mean all in scripture? Lets look at Mark 1:5 “And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.” Did every single person in Jedaea go see John the Baptist preach, did every single person get baptized or confess their sins. I don’t think the Pharisees did or the high priest did. How about in Matthew 10:22 “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” I am a Christian and love the Lord Jesus, do all men hate me? There are many more verses I can use to show this point about the word all in scripture. So I personally believe that all those Catholics and all those Baptist who truly believe that Jesus paid the price for their sins on the cross, and that He died, and was raised again by God the Father on the third day will be saved. Those who truly believe live by Faith and works, not just by faith and not just by works but both. And we are able to do this by Gods loving grace.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Pixie,

Just 3 days to go. The devil is sending out his legions against that day, but the good is on your side, and St. Michael the Archangel, and your own Guardian Angel are protecting you:

Prayer to St. Michael:
“Holy Michael, the Archangel, defend us in the battle; be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do thou O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and the evil spirits who roam through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen”

And to your own Angel:

"Angel of God, my guardian dear, to whom His love commits me here. Ever this day, be at my side, to light and guide, to rule and guide. Amen.

Peace
mgrfin

I do thank you for your prayers and encouraging words. If you don’t mind, send some prayers up for my dh, too.

~PD

(we now return to our regularly scheduled thread)

 

[mgrfin]

Did Christ die for all ? If so then all men would be saved. When we read verses in the bible for instance 1Timothy 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved”. Does this mean all men without exception? No this means that all men meaning both Jews and Gentiles would be saved. Does all mean all in scripture? Lets look at Mark 1:5 “And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.” Did every single person in Jedaea go see John the Baptist preach, did every single person get baptized or confess their sins. I don’t think the Pharisees did or the high priest did. How about in Matthew 10:22 “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” I am a Christian and love the Lord Jesus, do all men hate me? There are many more verses I can use to show this point about the word all in scripture. So I personally believe that all those Catholics and all those Baptist who truly believe that Jesus paid the price for their sins on the cross, and that He died, and was raised again by God the Father on the third day will be saved. Those who truly believe live by Faith and works, not just by faith and not just by works but both. And we are able to do this by Gods loving grace.

I don’t have a problem with what you are saving. We are not biblical literalists. We use common sense. There are figures of speech - like saying 'the whole world" or ‘all’, doesn’t literally mean that. But where you say, “Christ died for all”, we of course mean “all” literally.

I could do a better job at answering you, but I leave that to others standing in the wings.
mgrfin

 

[Pax]

There are over one hundred and fifty verses in the New Testament that tell us that salvation is by faith, faith that Jesus Christ is who the Bible says he is, faith that Jesus Christ died on the cross, was buried and rose again the third day. faith that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins so that we do not have to pay the penalty, faith that the blood of Jesus washed away all our sin.
This may sound rude but anyone that beleives that we are saved any other way is not saved at all

I have never taken a count of the verses that say we are saved by faith, but I will accept your count as valid. No one disagrees that faith is necessary for salvation. The disagreement comes when you add the word “alone.” Likewise, we know that there are many passages of scripture that also make reference to the other ingredients that are necessary for salvation. One simple example is love. A person that has no love of God will not be saved and scripture makes this abundantly clear.

 

[mgrfin]

I have never taken a count of the verses that say we are saved by faith, but I will accept your count as valid. No one disagrees that faith is necessary for salvation. The disagreement comes when you add the word “alone.” Likewise, we know that there are many passages of scripture that also make reference to the other ingredients that are necessary for salvation. One simple example is love. A person that has no love of God will not be saved and scripture makes this abundantly clear.

How true. Living outside of grace (state of serious sin), there is still faith and hope, but without charity. By good works done in the state of grace, man increases the grace within. What will be the effect of sin in the same man? By sin he loses the virtue of charity, and with charity are lost grace and the other supernatural virtues which depend upon charity for their being (not faith). There remain only the supernatural habits of faith and hope, two slender threads which still hold him to the body of Christ. Although still able by his natural powers, yet he cannot merit eternal life, by these, for he has lost sanctifying grace, which gave his works supernatural value.

peace
mgrfin

 

[Philthy]

If we lose faith in Jesus, we have lost santifying grace (justification) to you. If you die that way, yes, you lose salvation.
Losing faith in Jesus means commission of serious sin, including but not only sins against faith.
Remember, we don’t accept that OSAS.
Peace,
mgrfin

Thanks - the question wasnt for my own understanding, it was for allischalmers who claimed that salvation is by faith in Jesus. Saying that it is by faith in Jesus does not address the question of what happens if someone at one point in time “receives the word with joy” and has faith in Jesus, but “through the trials and temptations of the world” loses that faith at a later point in time and ultimately dies without faith in Jesus. He would simply like to pretend that salvation is instantaneous, complete and permanent at the time one comes to faith in Christ and that one need not continue in faith. I disagree with that contention and I was hoping to help him see that Scripture and reason disagree with him as well.

 

[allischalmers]

Well I say I’m saved by the grace of God, does that mean I’m not?

We AREsaved because of God’s grace, but it is our faith that saves us, faith in Jesus Christ.
Someone stated that you have to love God to be saved, but an unsaved person can not love God. We come to love God after we are saved.

 

[allischalmers]

Thanks - the question wasnt for my own understanding, it was for allischalmers who claimed that salvation is by faith in Jesus. Saying that it is by faith in Jesus does not address the question of what happens if someone at one point in time “receives the word with joy” and has faith in Jesus, but “through the trials and temptations of the world” loses that faith at a later point in time and ultimately dies without faith in Jesus. He would simply like to pretend that salvation is instantaneous, complete and permanent at the time one comes to faith in Christ and that one need not continue in faith. I disagree with that contention and I was hoping to help him see that Scripture and reason disagree with him as well.

The Bible tells us that Christians will face trails and temptations but those trails and temptation will only make your faith stronger.