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lyle
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Did Jesus die for those that are in hell? Only if they repented, right?
Split and Edited Title: Catholic Vs Baptist Soteriology Discussion
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Philthy
Guest
Hmmmm - how much thought did you give this? I dont think anyone would ever suggest that you “quote the whole bible” - do you? Here is what I said:
“That is an innaccurate representation of **all **of what Scripture says regarding the trials of life. Scripture doesnt merely say that trials will make your faith stronger - it also says that some will faulter during trials and that we need to persevere and that “whoever persevere’s until the end” will be saved.”
Nowhere do I request more verses from Scripture. Rather, what I requested was that he present a summary of the whole truth of what Scripture says regarding trials rather than a partial truth. Scripture doesnt merely say, as he implies, that trials will make us stronger in our faith. To claim that is all that is said is a partial truth. Rather, Scripture tells us that trials, through endurance, can make us stronger in our faith, but they also will cause some to stumble.
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as-a-child
Guest
I don’t mean your ability to judge. I mean your particular judgement , by God, after you die.
An i mean God desires we not die the death which is to be apart from him in Hell.
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bogeydogg
Guest
I used to believe OSAS. The problem is that it is tied up with some other beliefs such as double predestination which I find so incongruous with Scripture as to be intolerable. If a person is saved by grace through faith (a belief which RCC and protestants agree on in word if not always practice) then by the Grace of God which leads a person to true faith then the indwelling of the Holy Spirit would seem to lead to a person’s being protected from falling away, but here’s the problem. Hebrews, Romans, 2Peter, 1John all indicate that people do fall away and not just James. Revelation in fact makes mention that a person can be removed from the Book of Life and the Tree of Life, now I ask you, how is it possible to fall away and be removed? Well says the Calvinist, the person who truly falls away was never saved, the problem is this belief would seem to lead one to think that God erred in saving some and placing thier name in His Book only to have to remove them later. Well of course this problem is solved by belief in double predestination (for those who don’t know that is the belief that God has foreordained who will and will not be saved) an therefore God cannot err because those who are not foreordained cannot make a true confession of faith and therefore cannot be truly saved so therefore can appear to fall away without actually doing so. It is along this line of thinking that limited atonement comes in and the belief that Jesus did not actually die for the sins of all men, a belief by the way which Calvin himself denounced as fatalistic Stoicism when Zwingli put it forward.
Here’s the other problem, if Jesus died for some and not others, but those for whom He died all past present and future sins are paid for, and the bible says that we should not re-crucify Christ, then how is it possible for a OSAS believer to have his future sin atoned for if he has no penitence in his spirit? And no evangelical can object here for even Martin Luther in his Theses declared that a believer’s life will be marked by constant penitance, its found in number one by the way and explained to be other than only inward penitance in two through four.
So if Jesus died for my sins, and maybe no one else’s, and I am OSAS because of it and though I will not want to commit future sins they are unavoidable because of my fallen nature, I don’t have to worry about them or show an outward penitance for them and I as a matter of doctrine refuse to believe in purgation, upon what grounds can expect to stand before a holy God with unrepentance in my heart and a presumed upon prideful forgiveness because I am OSAS and expect to be acquitted before the bar of ultimate and final judgment?
Here’s the other problem, if Jesus died for some and not others, but those for whom He died all past present and future sins are paid for, and the bible says that we should not re-crucify Christ, then how is it possible for a OSAS believer to have his future sin atoned for if he has no penitence in his spirit? And no evangelical can object here for even Martin Luther in his Theses declared that a believer’s life will be marked by constant penitance, its found in number one by the way and explained to be other than only inward penitance in two through four.
So if Jesus died for my sins, and maybe no one else’s, and I am OSAS because of it and though I will not want to commit future sins they are unavoidable because of my fallen nature, I don’t have to worry about them or show an outward penitance for them and I as a matter of doctrine refuse to believe in purgation, upon what grounds can expect to stand before a holy God with unrepentance in my heart and a presumed upon prideful forgiveness because I am OSAS and expect to be acquitted before the bar of ultimate and final judgment?
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Benadam
Guest
aahh ok I see…yes it removes not only the particular judgement but also puts the angels who seperate the wheat and the tares on unemployment. 
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Benadam
Guest
ahh ok I see…and not only that but it puts the angels that seperate the wheat from the tares on the unemployment line.I don’t mean your ability to judge. I mean your particular judgement , by God, after you die.
An i mean God desires we not die the death which is to be apart from him in Hell.
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sandusky
Guest
Why do I need to reconcile two true statements?
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NotWorthy
Guest
In the parable of the sower, Jesus clearly shows that some people will have faith,but the trials of the words will tear it down.
Are you using James’ statement to support Allis Chalmers statement that all trials will make us stronger?
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sandusky
Guest
The parable of the sower raises some questions, such as: was the one who loses faith in a time of trial one of the elect who loses faith for a short time and then repents, or is he one who is not of the elect and falls away for good?
With respect to James, he refers to those addressed as “my brethren,” and clearly states that the various and sundry trials the brethren fall into strengthens their faith.
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allischalmers
Guest
And in Romans 5; Paul says’ And not only so, but we glory in tribulation also knowing that tribulation worketh patience’ Patience(“hopomone” {hoop-om-on-ay} which comes from a word meaning to remain.The parable of the sower raises some questions, such as: was the one who loses faith in a time of trial one of the elect who loses faith for a short time and then repents, or is he one who is not of the elect and falls away for good?
With respect to James, he refers to those addressed as “my brethren,” and clearly states that the various and sundry trials the brethren fall into strengthens their faith.
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sandusky
Guest
It does say that (v3). The consistent encouragement from God for the believer who finds himself in trial, is one of hope, and promise that the trial is for the believer’s good, and that the trial will strengthen his faith in God.
Understanding the absolute sovereignty of God in the lives of men, especially in the lives of those who are his, leaves no room in the believer’s heart for dispair.
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NotWorthy
Guest
If we look at the parable again,The parable of the sower raises some questions, such as: was the one who loses faith in a time of trial one of the elect who loses faith for a short time and then repents, or is he one who is not of the elect and falls away for good?
With respect to James, he refers to those addressed as “my brethren,” and clearly states that the various and sundry trials the brethren fall into strengthens their faith.
The first group heard the word, but it never took root (Jesus says they were never saved).
There is a completely different group. This group received it with joy. They believe in the word (He who hears and believes is saved), but in temptation they fall away.
Then there’s the next group who are not pertinent to the discussion.
It still looks like the believers (the 2nd group) were tempted and failed.
Bear in mind, that the “elect” don’t seem to come into play, or else Jesus would have said, “the elect received the seed and were saved”.
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sandusky
Guest
Well I don’t see the need to put words in the Lord’s mouth; in doing that, you are arguing from what He does not say. The fact that Christ understood that there is an elect group is certain (cf Mt 24:22, 24, 31; Mk 13:20, 22, 27; Lk 18:7); and based upon what Paul says about the elect, in the revelation of the Gospel which he claims he received directly from the Lord, Himself (Gal 1:1ff), leads me to the firm belief that the elect will never perish.
Therefore, even though some receive the word with joy (Lk 8:13), Christ says that they have ”no firm root,” and that they believe only ”for a while, and in temptation fall away.” If they fall away forever, they were not justified, and therefore, not of the elect.
Also, hearing, and believing one time is not sufficient, as illustrated by the parable; hearing and believing must be continuous, in its perseverance (Lk 8:15).
We have a different understanding of what the constitutes the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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NotWorthy
Guest
No, I believe we have a different understanding of what constitutes who are the elect.We have a different understanding of what the constitutes the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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sandusky
Guest
That too.No, I believe we have a different understanding of what constitutes who are the elect.
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sparre11
Guest
All of our sins were future when Jesus died for them!
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mikeledes
Guest
I would argue that the person was justified, but not of those predestined to glory. I’ll repost something I posted earler.Therefore, even though some receive the word with joy (Lk 8:13), Christ says that they have ”no firm root,” and that they believe only ”for a while, and in temptation fall away.” If they fall away forever, they were not justified, and therefore, not of the elect.
Also, hearing, and believing one time is not sufficient, as illustrated by the parable; hearing and believing must be continuous, in its perseverance (Lk 8:15).
We have a different understanding of what the constitutes the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I would like to examine four verses, all of which touch on the issue of perseverance. I ask that they be read prayerfully and with care.
1 Corinthians 9:26
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Philippians 3:12-14
**12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. **
Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
Now the first verse is often explained away by claiming that it is merely talking about rewards, not salvation. However, this argument contradicts the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. Why? Because if Saint Paul had been disqualified, it would be because he failed to keep his body in subjection and that would mean he was overcome by sin. This reminds me of 2 Peter 2:20:
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
So if perseverance is a sign of election, then 1 Corinthian 9:26 cannot be about mere rewards. If a person failed to persevere and was disqualified and did not receive the crown, does that not also mean that the person will not be saved? Compare** Matthew 10:22**
"… But he who endures to the end will be saved."
with Revelation 2:10
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
and James 1:12
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
So if the crown is given to all those who persevere to the end, then does that not mean that is given to all those who are glorified? If this is so, then doesn’t diqualification from receiving the crown mean the same thing as disqualification from being glorified? Thus Paul can only be talking about disqualification from final salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:26. But if he were a Calvinist, would he cast such doubt on his own salvation?
It seems that Calvinists are far more certain of their own salvation than Saint Paul.God Bless,
Michael
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mikeledes
Guest
There are several passages in Ezekiel that contradicts the Calvinist notion of perseverance of the saints.
"You shall llive in Ezekiel means that God has deemed/declared you righteous and pleasing in His sight. Thus, it can never refer to someone who has not been justified by His grace:
Ezekiel 3:21
**21"However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself." **
Ezekiel 18:9
**9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD. **
Ezekiel 18:21
21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
**"You shall die **means that God has deemed you unrighteous/wicked and God has not found you pleasing in His sight.
Ezekiel 3:19
19"Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity
Ezekiel 18:13
**13… He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death…" **
Ezekiel 18:23
**23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? **
God never says He shall surely live to anyone who is not righteous in His sight, to a person who has not been justified by His grace. Therefore, when we have a verse like:
Ezekiel 33:13
13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.
God will never call a person “righteous” if they have not been justified by His grace and he would definitely not tell that person he shall surely live - a phrase only used in reference to the genuinely righteous and the repentant sinner - if that person is not pleasing in His sight and has not genuinely repented of his sins. That would contradict His express words. These passages also describe the possibility of a person turning away from God and dying in that state, a scenario that contradicts the perseverance of the saints as understood by Calvinism.
Ezekiel 18:24
**24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. **
Ezekiel 3:20
**20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. **
God Bless,
Michael
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lyle
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NotWorthy
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Jesus’ death redeemed us. It paid off our debt to sin. Those in hell chose to return to slavery of sin. Those in heaven participated in this Sacrifice.
He died for us all, but some choose to share in His Glory and some don’t.
He died for us all, but some choose to share in His Glory and some don’t.
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