SPLIT: Annulment biblical?

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one more thing…some annulments are given to people who have been married over 20 years.
so. that kind of kills the not knowing what they were getting into philosophy.

GO SHEILA GO SHEILA !!!
If someone at the time of the wedding did not accept the permanence of marriage, it doesn’t matter whether they stay together for one year, 10 years or 20 years; the fact is they did not intend at the time they got married to stay married. The length of their living together does not change that fact.
 
again, blatant ignorance.

Blatant ignorance??
No, this is true. A protestant marriage has to be annulled through the tribunal if the
protestant person wishes to marry a catholic.

I know this real well.
However, Protestant marriages are subject to the same proofs. If the requisite intent was not there at the beginning, or if there was an impediment there at the beginning, it is just as subject to a decree of nullity as a Catholioc one; and if there was the requisite intent by both parites, and no impediment, then no decree will be grnted.
 
I don’t believe in spousal abuse, but not everyone’s marriage goes perfectly.
Just because the guy turns out to be a jerk doesn’ t mean they were not validly married.

and she sticks out 25 years?? couldnt have been that bad.
Oh, I’ll agree that a person can be a ‘jerk’ yet validly married. But the above goes far beyond’ jerkiness’. . .

And your second comment that it ‘couldn’t have been that bad’ if she stuck it out 25 years shows an absolute ignorance on your part of what people can endure or what kind of psychological damage can be done to a person. In a way I’m glad; obviously you have never suffered that kind of abuse and so you cannot wrap your head around the fact that **other people have. **But equally it is sad that simply because you have no ‘personal’ stake or interest or experience, you can ‘dismiss’ anybody else whose experience differs from yours. . .
 
Oh, I’ll agree that a person can be a ‘jerk’ yet validly married. But the above goes far beyond’ jerkiness’. . .
But equally it is sad that simply because you have no ‘personal’ stake or interest or experience, you can ‘dismiss’ anybody else whose experience differs from yours. . .

And how would you have any idea what or HOW my experiences are and how different they may or may not be from yours or anyone else’s?

Why don’t you check out the links I provided. The holy father is on MY side, not yours.
 
what about a wife or husband who faithfully sticks to his/her marriage and is dumped
because her husband/wife picked up with the new hot thing at the office?
Whether they are dumped or not has nothing to do with whether or not there was an impediment at the time of the marriage. It will just about guarantee that the one who was faithful will be angry, emotionally wrought, often seeking vengance, often wounded and not willing to work on healing that wound, often not willing to forgive the other spouse, often seeing themself as the “martyr” who “lived a perfect marriage” (it is always interesting to find that all the wrong in the marriage was the other person’s fault, and that the wronged spouse was a perfect saint), and now angry with the Church because of a finding of an impediment that goes back to the time of the wedding, but does nothing to assuage the grief, anger, hatred, despair and or other emotions that are still present over the subsequent issue.

The short of it is that there is no answer that will ever satisfy the “wronged” spouse because they don’t want to hear any facts; their emotions are what counts. The focus constantly goes to the split; the focus is emotion based and facts have no bearing on that.
and now the wife or husband sees them actively participating in the mass AND receiving the Eucharist because the tribunal granted the ex an annulment on “lack of grave judgment”
or “immaturity”
To begin with, someone who murders and subsequently goes to Reconcilliation, confesses their sin and is forgiven can actively participate in Mass AND receive Eucharist. There is not a whole lot of difference between the two, particularly since you will not know if the ex may or may not have had anything to confess and whether they have done so or not. Christ forgives sins. Ex’s too often do not.

Further, it would appear that you are the wronged party, and you want us to take your side and say how terrible this all was. But none of us have access to the file, none of us know what facts were before the tribunal, and the fact that the tribunal (and the subsequent tribunal, to whom the case was automatically appealed) found that there was lack of grave judgement is not something that any of us can make any rational judgement upon. We have to presume that the tribunal acted within its authority and that there was sufficient evidence that lead to this conclusion. To do otherwise is to presume either that the tirbunal was incompetent - with no facts to support any such conclusion - or that there were insufficent facts - and we don’t have the record to make such a decision.
maybe some of these spouses are being left out in the cold with no support system and no marriage, and even the church is not on their side.
Actually, this is the most telling comment of all. The Church did not abandon anyone. You want the Church to take sides. That is not what the Church does. The Church is not out to say that one side was a better spouse than the other, or that one was more at fault than the other. Fault is not part of the process. The Tribunal doesn’t really care if Spouse A has one affair or 15 affairs after the wedding, or none at all. If either Spouse A or Spouse B lacked grave judgement, that and not any subsequent affair was the grounds for the decree. In fact, it would be grounds for the decree if there was no affair.

The affair is not what is being judged. The failure of the “left behind” spouse to understand this is the source of much grief. The “wronged” spouse wants the tribunal to find the other party at fault, to say that the wronged spouse is vindicated, and to get their “pound of flesh”. When the tribunal does not deliver that, they say the Church does not “support them”. That is because they have decided that “support” means finding fault. But the Church does not do that.

Sheila wanted the Church to find that her husband, one of the Kennedys, was a bad person. He should be punished by being forbidden Communion because he was in a new relationship. That may be the final outcome of their case, but that is not the purpose of the tribunal. Sheila wanted her pound of flesh - and perhaps has received it. Doesn’t that make her a better person? It would appear that you want your pound of flesh. That is not what the tribunal is there for.

The Church - and Christ - is very much on your side; but their being on your side is not in the manner you may want. Christ forgives. In turn, He wants us to forgive others; in fact, we ask Him for forgiveness as we forgive others. That sometimes makes for a very, very hard statement.
 
It is SAD that no one, and a very large percentage of people in the CC, do not
uphold the sacredness of marriage anymore.

When the cc passes out annulments like candy, which they do, how does that
promote a lifelong, til death union. It doesn’t.

Again, I provided links. where are yours ?
 
And how would you have any idea what or HOW my experiences are and how different they may or may not be from yours or anyone else’s?

Why don’t you check out the links I provided. The holy father is on MY side, not yours.
We aren’t in opposition, dear.

I am not ‘siding against’ the Holy Father and I resent you putting words into my mouth. Please don’t do so again.

Really, I know you have a ‘bug’ on this subject but the Tribunals who declare the decree of nullity for a given individual are part of our Catholic Church and have the authority to do so.

Do some people get a decree under false pretenses? Maybe. Does that mean that those who get one validly and legitimately don’t COUNT?

Did the Pope say that he wants to stop all decrees? I don’t think he did, you know. . .
 
Sheila Rauch Kennedy wanted the church to uphold her marriage and that it was indeed a union blessed by God. And the last I heard the Rome in ROTA agreed with SHEILA.
So , is the ROTA wrong now too ?
 
Tantum Ergo, I don’t appreciate you calling me dear.
And I never put words in your mouth.
Where are YOUR links?
 
As a point of information there are Catholics out there who petition for a decree of nullity not to ‘get remarried’ but simply because they wish to have an impartial tribunal explore the evidence.

I’m sure most will have ‘guessed’ that I have received such a decree. I’ve made no secret of it.

Many are also aware that not only did I NOT do so to ‘get remarried’ but that I have in fact been celibate for over 20 years.

Many are also aware that had the Tribunal found my marriage to be valid I would have absolutely accepted it. While I could not for safety’s sake return to a dangerous living situation I would have considered myself (as I have been, see ‘celibate’ above) to be a married woman living apart from her husband as permitted by the Church in situations of danger.

I, and others like me, get really, really tired of being labeled falsely as being only out to ‘get another spouse’, or as ‘quitters’, or as those who ‘ignore and defy the gospel’.

IOW, I get really tired of blanket generalizations from people who are sure that they know it ALL, that everything is all neatly labelled such that ALL who seek decrees are wicked lazy adulterers who ignore the Church and want to ruin society!!!
 
And I am really tired of your defensive posts.
Where are YOUR links ?
 
And I am really tired of your defensive posts.
Where are YOUR links ?
If you’re tired of them, don’t read them. This is a forum. If you find something in them that goes against the rules, point it out to me (as a courtesy) and to the moderators. If I have committed an infarction according to the rules I absolutely will ask pardon and ‘stop’ committing said infarction if it is made known to me. But last I knew, having a post perceived by another poster as ‘defensive’ was not against the rules. . .

I follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. Please show me where in receiving a decree of nullity I have contravened the teachings of the Church which made that decision. . .
 
And how would you have any idea what or HOW my experiences are and how different they may or may not be from yours or anyone else’s?

Why don’t you check out the links I provided. The holy father is on MY side, not yours.
The Pope is not taking sides. If he wanted to repeal the portions of the Code of Canon law which provide for some of the grounds for a decree of nullity, he most certainly could do so. Neither he nor John Paul 2, both of whom have been critical of tribunals decisions, have indicated that the grounds they have criticised are invalid, only that they have not been applied properly. there is a large difference between the two.
 
And of course, while there are speculations that some decrees may not have been either “petitioned” properly (i.e., the person seeking is giving false information and the Tribunal is acting in good faith but with inaccurate information). . .and there are possibilities that at a given time a given individual in a local or even the “Rota” may, knowingly or unknowingly, apply the valid ‘grounds’ in an incorrect way, this does not mean that ‘all decrees of nullity’’ are suspect!

On any given day in a U.S. district court, an individual plaintiff could be lying, an individual defendent could be lying, an individual lawyer could be arguing wrongly and applying legal matters wrongly, a judge or jury could (either knowingly or unknowingly) apply legal decisions wrongly. . .

Does this mean that every single person in the court system is a lying, corrupt idiot? THat every decision made in that court is tainted and wrong? Of course not.

Same thing with decrees of nullity.
 
First of all, as others know and have pointed out, there is no such thing as an “annulment” in Catholic law. It is an unfortunate term that has become common parlance throughout the Church, however. The Church does issue declarations of nullity. Can a person find this notion in the Bible? Indirectly, yes.

In the famous passages from the Gospel of St. Matthew, the “except in the case of” clause begs the question–how is one to determine if the exception is actually present? Some kind of judicial process could be needed.

People can argue about the value of the New American Bible translation but it is interesting that they chose to translate “porneia” as “unlawful.” This is more clear in supporting the notion that a judicial process could be necessary in determining the binding nature of a marriage bond.

Regarding the granting of declarations of nullity in the USA–Dr. Ed Peters has an illuminating appendix in his book “Annulments and the Catholic Church” where he puts the US situation in a helpful context. The basic point is that the relatively large number of “annulments” is not as indefensible as some people think. His argument conviced me to change my opinion on the matter…

Dan
 
It is SAD that no one, and a very large percentage of people in the CC, do not
uphold the sacredness of marriage anymore.

When the cc passes out annulments like candy, which they do, how does that
promote a lifelong, til death union. It doesn’t.

Again, I provided links. where are yours ?
Some of the statistics come from CARA. Others are not specifically linked as they are from books, journals and news articles (e.g. National Catholic Register).

As noted, the Church has not handed out decrees of nullity like candy; 93% of those divorced have not received one.

I agree that it is sad that people do not take marriage vows seriously; that is largely due to a society in general in swhich a significant number want to completely redefine marriage based on sex as recreation, and within the Church the failure to adequately catechize from early grade school upwards. That part is slowly changing, but much damage has already been done.
 
Sheila Rauch Kennedy wanted the church to uphold her marriage and that it was indeed a union blessed by God. And the last I heard the Rome in ROTA agreed with SHEILA.
So , is the ROTA wrong now too ?
No, it is not necessarily the Rota which was wrong; it may well be that the case was not properly presented in the first place.

Her husband has certainly shown what he thinks of the sacrament of marriage currently. Whether or not that was what he thought of the sacrament at the day of the wedding does not appear to have been discussed. Tribunals do not issue decrees of validity; they only issue decrees of nullity. The Rota did not say that they had a valid marriage; they said that the case was not proven that it was not sacramental. People may argue those are the same thing, but they are not.

In any given marriage case sent to a tribunal there may be several possible grounds that the sacrament was null. Some may be weaker or stronger than others, or more or less capable of proof. Picking the weaker issue does not say anything about the stronger issue as the stronger issue is then not submitted to decision.
 
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