Split: Another Marian Debate

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Can the Protestants here please answer something for me? We have seen the accusations against Catholics that we worship Mary. You frequently make the claim that you honor Mary, but you do not “worship” her like Catholics do. So, can you give me your opinion of what honoring Mary would be and what you do to honor her? I’m very curious about the Protestant honoring of Mary because I hear about it frequently in threads about Mary, but I have never seen concrete examples of what you actually do. Can anyone help me?
 
Mary’s perpetual virginity demonstrates her purity of heart and total love for God.
This doesn’t make sense to me. Someone can have sex with their spouse and be pure of heart with a total love for God. Does that mean she couldn’t enjoy anything? Is it because sex was unnecessary enjoyment? Is there something wrong with sex? Why can’t someone have a pure heart and total love for God while partaking in the gift of intimacy that God gave married couples? I’m not being sarcastic, but this is another Catholic doctrine I truly struggle with.
 
Thank you for answering me! I still have some questions regarding some of the information y ou gave me.

Why is having sex passing through the gate? I mean, the “gate” I am assuming is supposed to be Mary’s womb, right? Not to be graphic, but when a man has sex with a woman, he does not “pass through” her. Now, if he went all the way deep into her womb where the Christ-child was, then I would believe this scripture to prove her perpetual virginity. But I would never have thought sex with a woman meant the same thing as “passing through” her. I know I must be missing something here. What is it?
My response to that would be that during birth, the infant comes through the same passage by which a man would enter a woman.
Everything I’m reading seems to indicate that if Mary had sex she wouldn’t be fit to be Christ’s mother. Why? Is there anything wrong with relations with a spouse? I just don’t understand.
Maybe this will help:

**“But it’s not a sin for a married couple to have marital relations.”
**
True, ordinarily. But even in the Old Testament God asked married couples to refrain from intercourse for various reasons. For example, the priests of the temple had to refrain from intimacy with their wives during the time of their service. Likewise, Moses had the Israelites abstain from intercourse as he ascended Mount Sinai (Ex. 20:15). There is a theme here of refraining from marital rights because of the presence of something very holy.

The Church Fathers knew that there was something greater than the temple in Mary’s womb, comparing it to the Eastern Gate mentioned in Ezekiel 44: “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.” Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament.

Now, if Uzzah was struck dead for touching the Ark (2 Sam. 6:6–8), should it be surprising that Joseph understood that Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone? The idea that Joseph assumed normal marital relations with Mary after the birth of Christ was an irreverence that even the Protestant reformers rejected.

Interestingly, according to Jewish law, if a man was betrothed to a woman and she became pregnant from another, he could never have relations with her. The man had to put her away privately or condemn her in public and put her to death. Joseph chose the more merciful option.

Then, the angel told him to lead her into the house as a wife (paralambano gunaika), but the language that describes marital relations is not used here. It was used, however, in Luke 1:35: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.” To “overshadow” a woman was a euphemism for having a marital relationship, as was the phrase “to lay one’s power” over a woman. The Holy Spirit had espoused Mary, and she had been consecrated, set apart for God.

Also, it appears that Mary had made a vow of virginity. When the angel said that she would conceive and bear a son, she asked, “How can this be, since I do not know man?” She knew how babies were made, and she was about to be married. “How can this be?” would seem like a pretty silly question unless she had made a prior vow of virginity.

"Why is she betrothed to Joseph if she made a vow of virginity?"

Consecrated virginity was not common among first century Jews, but it did exist. According to some early Christian documents, such as the *Protoevangelium of James *(written around A.D. 120), Mary was a consecrated virgin. As such, when she reached puberty, her monthly cycle would render her ceremonially unclean and thus unable to dwell in the temple without defiling it under the Mosaic Law. At this time, she would be entrusted to a male guardian. However, since it was forbidden for a man to live with a woman he was not married or related to, the virgin would be wed to the guardian, and they would have no marital relations.

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007sbs.asp
 
Manny,

I don’t disagree that God could have assumed Mary into heaven nor do I think it inconsistent with God that He would have done such a thing.

My issue is that from my point of view, there is no reason to believe that Mary was assumed into heaven.

2Thess 2:15 can be does contain the word tradition in it but do you think the Thessolonians, or however you spell their name, were aware of this belief?

To the best of my knowledge, there is no record of any belief in the assumption until around the year 400. I may have this confused with another Marian belief but nonetheless, I am pretty sure that this belief developed several centuries after the apostles.

By the way, I apologize again for being rude in the other thread.
The belief of Mary proclaim by the Church only affirms who Jesus Christ is. Was he merely a man? nor was he God? We both know he his God and Man, who died for our sins.

The belief in the Assumption of Mary is ancient belief held by the ECF and early Christians. I have cited sources here and other Catholic Apologist also cited.

During the Apostolic Age, Mary was still alive. So there wasn’t any objections to a commonly held belief by Christians. They believe she was Mary, Virgin Mother of God. She lived amongst them.

In the Eastern Christianity, it’s called The Dormition of the Theotokos is the Eastern Orthodox commemoration of the “falling asleep” or death of Mary, the mother of Jesus. It is celebrated on August 15 (August 28 Old Style) as the Feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God. It is preceded by a two-week fast from meat, dairy and oil.

In Orthodoxy, as in the language of scripture, death is often called a “sleeping” or “falling asleep” (Greek κοίμησις; whence κοιμητήριον > coemetērium > cemetery, a place of sleeping). A prominent example of this is the name of this feast; another is the Dormition of Anna, Mary’s mother. The Orthodox believe that Mary, after spending her life after Pentecost supporting and serving the nascent Church, became ill. She was living in the house of the Apostle John, in Jerusalem, when the Archangel Gabriel revealed to her that her repose would occur three days later. The apostles, scattered throughout the world, are said to have been miraculously transported to be at her side when she died. The sole exception was Thomas, who was characteristically late. He is said to have arrived three days after her death, and asked to see her grave so that he could bid her goodbye. Mary had been buried in Gethsemane, according to her request. When they arrived at the grave, her body was gone, leaving a sweet fragrance. An apparition is said to have confirmed that Christ had taken her body to heaven after her soul and reunited them, as a foretaste of the general resurrection to come. The Dormition of the Theotokos Mary is sometimes called the “summer pascha.” This is because Mary’s repose is linked with her passage to heaven in anticipation of the general resurrection and follows in the path created by Christ in his rising, and also because the Dormition fast that precedes the feast resembles that of Great Lent.

Orthodox and Catholics give much recognition of Mary because she gave us our Savior. We are called to follow her example, and since she desire us to serve her son Jesus, it doesn’t hurt to ask for her to pray for us.

Jesus called God, Our Father. In Christ, we are adapted brothers and sisters of Christ. Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and is the Mother of the Church as well. It is a Holy Family, we are all a Holy Family, we pray with one another.

Even though the Saints are dead physically, their souls are more alive than we are.
 
This doesn’t make sense to me. Someone can have sex with their spouse and be pure of heart with a total love for God. Does that mean she couldn’t enjoy anything? Is it because sex was unnecessary enjoyment? Is there something wrong with sex? Why can’t someone have a pure heart and total love for God while partaking in the gift of intimacy that God gave married couples? I’m not being sarcastic, but this is another Catholic doctrine I truly struggle with.
One can have all of the things above. In my faith, we see value also in celibacy as well as marriage. There are many passages in the Bible to support this.
 
1.) Please provide your clear scriptural support for the assumption.

2.) You still seem stuck in the false dichotomy mode…one either dismisses Mary althogether or joins the catholic church in all it’s various traditions honoring Mary. Many which have a pedigree that can’t be trace back earlier than several centuries after the apostles.

3.) You are also coming very close to slander with your charge that protestants tear Mary down.
talk about false dichotomies, if you haven’t been told yet(which I doubt) I’ll tell you…Catholics do not believe in sola scripture, Protestant theology pits the Bible against Tradition, that is a FALSE DICHOTOMIE, we must not pit one of God’s gifts against another. The Catholic approach is “both/and”; we accept both the bible and tradition, both faith and works, and all the rest. You claim that many traditions can’t be traced back to earlier than several centuries after the apostles, Who do you believe handed down these traditions to the early church fathers?? ummm maybe the Apostles? I believe enough evidence has been given on that topic.
 
Oops, forgot one last thing in my last post. If you want to see things spelled out explicitly in Scripture, could someone, who is sola scripture, please show me explicitly in the bible where your beliefs of the Trinity, the canon of the Bible, and that the death of the last Apostle closed the deposit of faith. I’ll wait…
 
Oops, forgot one last thing in my last post. If you want to see things spelled out explicitly in Scripture, could someone, who is sola scripture, please show me explicitly in the bible where your beliefs of the Trinity, the canon of the Bible, and that the death of the last Apostle closed the deposit of faith. I’ll wait…
God the father…throughout the entire old and new testament

Jesus…foreshadowed in the old testament, throughout the entire new testatment, especially the Gospel of John. (In the beginning was the Word…)

The Holy Spirit…Genesis…the spirit of the Lord blew over the deep, as well as the spirit descending on various of the old testament figures. Also, Jesus’ promise to his disciples that although he was leaving them, he would send them a comforter…

So, there you have it, scriptural proof of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, commonly referred to as “the Trinity”
 
What you have posted is very logical, very reasonable and no doubt correct. I have no problem with honoring Mary. The IC, the Assumption, ever-Virgin, those are different issues.
Please let us help, which one would you like to start with. Let’s try a little slower approach. Sinlessness- we have to start with typology. the Ark of the Old covenant prefigured Mary, the ark of the New Covenant. The first chapter of Luke’s gospel repeatedly makes this connection.

OT Ark
A Cloud of glory covered the Tabernacle and Ark Exodus 40: 34-35; Numbers 9: 15

Mary, NT Ark
" And the angel said to her; " The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you" Luke 1:35

OT
Ark spent three months in the house of Obededom and Gittite 2 Samuel 6:11

NT
Mary spent three months in the house of Zechariah and Elizabeth Luke 1:26,40

OT Ark
King David asked “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” 2 Samuel 6:9

NT Ark
Elizabeth asks Mary, “why is this that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43
OT Ark
David LEAPED and danced before the Lord when the Ark arrived in Jerusalem 2 Samuel 6:14-16

NT Ark John the baptist LEAPED for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary arrived Luke 1:44

Typology, once you understand the meaning and importance of OT types, you will discover that ALL CATHOLIC BELIEFS about Mary are found in the Bible.
 
God the father…throughout the entire old and new testament

Jesus…foreshadowed in the old testament, throughout the entire new testatment, especially the Gospel of John. (In the beginning was the Word…)

The Holy Spirit…Genesis…the spirit of the Lord blew over the deep, as well as the spirit descending on various of the old testament figures. Also, Jesus’ promise to his disciples that although he was leaving them, he would send them a comforter…

So, there you have it, scriptural proof of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, commonly referred to as “the Trinity”
the question is where in the Bible is the commonly referred to Trinity. Can you show me exactly where the words “The Trinity” is found?
 
God the father…throughout the entire old and new testament

Jesus…foreshadowed in the old testament, throughout the entire new testatment, especially the Gospel of John. (In the beginning was the Word…)

The Holy Spirit…Genesis…the spirit of the Lord blew over the deep, as well as the spirit descending on various of the old testament figures. Also, Jesus’ promise to his disciples that although he was leaving them, he would send them a comforter…

So, there you have it, scriptural proof of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, commonly referred to as “the Trinity”
But where in the Bible is our understanding of the Trinity explicated? The Church teaches that the Trinity is three persons in one being in the Godhead. This is what most Protestants believe, as well. (Or I should say, one teaching the Protestants did not abandon.) But this is not spelled out for us in Scripture.

The Sabellian heresy taught that there is only one person in the Godhead. Sabellius meant that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one person with different “offices”. In Modalism and in modern Pentecostalism, the teaching is that Jesus is the only person in the Godhead and that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are merely names, modes or offices of Jesus.

Where in the Bible is our understanding of the Trinity written about? It isn’t. We see what we know as the Trinity referred to in the Bible, but the theology of what that means is not spelled out. And of course, the term “Trinity” is not in the pages of Scripture. We rely on Church tradition to “see” the Trinity in the Bible. This is a really good example of how Catholics read and understand the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. The Bible does not contradict these teachings, but it also does not spell these doctrines out for us.
 
Alrighty then…
Mary’s perpetual virginity
St. Athanasius, the great doctor of the Incarnation who led the fight against Arianism, is highly respected by Protestants. In his discourse Against the Arians, he explicitly calls Mary “Ever Virgin” (Discourse Against the Arians, 2,70; Jurgens Vol. 1, #767a.)
4th century???
At the end of the fouth century, when Helvidius questioned Mary’s perpetual virginity, the Church Fathers reacted with outrage. St Jerome penned a scathing defense, The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary Against Helvidius, condeming his teaching as novel and heretical. Both St. Augustine and St. Ambrose strongly defended Mary’s perpetual virginity. Augustine calls her," A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, and a Virgin pregnant, A Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. ( See Sermons, 186, 1; Heresies, 56; Jurgens, Vol. 3, #1518 and 1974d.)
almost 5th century???👍

Lets take a look see at some older ones shall we?
3century…
Origen
“While if by those ‘who were without sin’ he means such as have never at any time sinned,-for he made no distinction in his statement,-we reply that it is impossible for a man thus to be without sin. And this we say, excepting, of course, the man understood to be in Christ Jesus, who ‘did no sin.’…God has not been able to prevent even in the case of a single individual, so that one man might be found from the very beginning of things who was born into the world untainted by sin…For in the connected series of statements which appears to apply as to one particular individual, the curse pronounced upon Adam is regarded as common to all (the members of the race), **and what was spoken with reference to the woman is spoken of every woman without exception.” **- Origen (Against Celsus, 3:62, 4:40)

“Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon’s prophecy (Luke 2, 35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified.” (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 493)
------------------------------------------------
Justin… whom only lived to 160 AD
Justin Martyr
Justin Martyr didn’t think Mary was sinless. He refers to every person being a sinner, and he denies that a Jewish opponent he was debating, Trypho, can cite a single person who didn’t need to be saved by Christ from sins he had committed. No Roman Catholic could issue such a challenge to Trypho:

“Now, we know that he did not go to the river because He stood in need of baptism, or of the descent of the Spirit like a dove; even as He submitted to be born and to be crucified, not because He needed such things, but because of the human race, which from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent, and each one of which had committed personal transgression…For the whole human race will be found to be under a curse. For it is written in the law of Moses, ‘Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them.’ And no one has accurately done all, nor will you venture to deny this; but some more and some less than others have observed the ordinances enjoined. But if those who are under this law appear to be under a curse for not having observed all the requirements, how much more shall all the nations appear to be under a curse who practise idolatry, who seduce youths, and commit other crimes? If, then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up, why do you argue about Him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father’s will, as if He were accursed, and do not rather bewail yourselves? For although His Father caused Him to suffer these things in behalf of the human family, yet you did not commit the deed as in obedience to the will of God.” (Dialogue with Trypho, 88, 95)
I’ve another dozen or so but this should suffice, I don’t see how you can prove that it has always been assumed… No bible inference, the oldest writers are 4th and 5th century???
I’ve shown older ones whom deny it.
 
Martin,

You are incorrect.

Not according to these Early Church Fathers. Not one of their verse mention that Mary in particular is sinful. Not one ECF. It is an early held belief that Mary is sinless. Period. She is SINLESS!!! She’s God’s mother. He would not allow a sinful women be the mother of his SON!

Here are some writings to disprove your claim martin.

“And indeed it was a virgin, about to marry once for all after her delivery, who gave birth to Christ, in order that each title of sanctity might be fulfilled in Christ’s parentage, by means of a mother who was both virgin, and wife of one husband. Again, when He is presented as an infant in the temple, who is it who receives Him into his hands? Who is the first to recognize Him in spirit? A man just and circumspect,’ and of course no digamist, (which is plain) even (from this consideration), lest (otherwise) Christ should presently be more worthily preached by a woman, an aged widow, and the wife of one man;’ who, living devoted to the temple, was (already) giving in her own person a sufficient token what sort of persons ought to be the adherents to the spiritual temple,–that is, the Church. Such eye-witnesses the Lord in infancy found; no different ones had He in adult age." Tertullian, On Monogamy, 8 (A.D. 213).

“For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to His mother, Woman, behold thy son,’ and not Behold you have this son also,’ then He virtually said to her, Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.’ Is it not the case that every one who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, Behold thy son Christ.’ What a mind, then, must we have to enable us to interpret in a worthy manner this work, though it be committed to the earthly treasure-house of common speech, of writing which any passer-by can read, and which can be heard when read aloud by any one who lends to it his bodily ears?” Origen, Commentary on John, I:6 (A.D. 232).

“Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin; for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed.” Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362).

"And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son.’ He hath here used the word till,’ not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform thee that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, hath he used the word, till’? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, The raven returned not till the earth was dried up.’ And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture saith, From age until age Thou art,’ not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away,’ it doth not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word “till,” to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference.” John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).

“Thus, what it was necessary for thee to learn of Him, this He Himself hath said; that the Virgin was untouched by man until the birth; but that which both was seen to be a consequence of the former statement, and was acknowledged, this in its turn he leaves for thee to perceive; namely, that not even after this, she having so become a mother, and having been counted worthy of a new sort of travail, and a child-bearing so strange, could that righteous man ever have endured to know her. For if he had known her, and had kept her in the place of a wife, how is it that our Lord commits her, as unprotected, and having no one, to His disciple, and commands him to take her to his own home? How then, one may say, are James and the others called His brethren? In the same kind of way as Joseph himself was supposed to be husband of Mary. For many were the veils provided, that the birth, being such as it was, might be for a time screened. Wherefore even John so called them, saying, For neither did His brethren believe in Him.’ John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).
 
Myfavoritmartin - In your faith, do you honor Mary? If so, in what ways? I have seen several Protestants on this thread claim that what they do is honor Mary, what Catholics do is worship her. Yet when I ask in what ways they honor Mary, I can’t get a response. Can no one answer this seemingly simple question?
 
Myfavoritmartin - In your faith, do you honor Mary? If so, in what ways? I have seen several Protestants on this thread claim that what they do is honor Mary, what Catholics do is worship her. Yet when I ask in what ways they honor Mary, I can’t get a response. Can no one answer this seemingly simple question?
It’s because the Non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters refuse to acknowledge Mary. Little do they know that God’s Kingdom is about a Family. God as our Father, Jesus as our brother, and Mary as our Mother.
 
Myfavoritmartin - In your faith, do you honor Mary? If so, in what ways? I have seen several Protestants on this thread claim that what they do is honor Mary, what Catholics do is worship her. Yet when I ask in what ways they honor Mary, I can’t get a response. Can no one answer this seemingly simple question?
I honor her similarly to how I honor my deceased mother, I think about her and smile about the blessings she brought forth in my life.

He is worthy to be sought.
 
I honor her similarly to how I honor my deceased mother, I think about her and smile about the blessings she brought forth in my life.

He is worthy to be sought.
You think about Mary. Fantastic start. I think about the dog we had when I was five. I’m sure you’ve done more than that for your biological mother. What have you DONE for Mary?
 
You think about Mary. Fantastic start. I think about the dog we had when I was five. I’m sure you’ve done more than that for your biological mother. What have you DONE for Mary?
Excuse me, but what more might have i done for my deceased mother… She is no longer with us. And I am not mormon or Catholic so no I don’t ask her to pray for me or accept that she might be over my shoulder looking out for me.
In case you didn’t know my beliefs are very fundamental…
 
I’m not quoting anyone at this point, but reading through the discussion I was reminded of something read in another Message Board.

Mt 12:50 For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother."

So, folks, Protestant, Catholic and all others, if you want Jesus to be your brother or sister, Mary will have to be your Mother helping you to do the will of His heavenly Father.

God bless everyone with a Blessed and Merry Christmas.
 
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