Split: Are Jews saved under a different Covenant?

[Melchior]

For Tom:

The answer is clearly no. Christ fulfilled the Abrahamic covenant. Gentiles are grafted in by faith in Christ and Jews only remain in covenant through faith in the same Christ.

*Romans 3:9

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,*

*Romans 9:27

And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,*

*1 Cor. 1 21-25

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.*

*1 Cor. 12:13

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit*

See one body. Not two.

*Galatians 2:15 & 16

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.*

And I don’t see how you can get around this one:

*Romans 10: 8-13

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says,** “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”***

*Romans 11:13

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.*

*Romans 11:17-20

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith.*

*Romans 11:28-32

As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.*

The context is clear that a remnant of Jews will be saved by being grafted back in through faith in Christ. As is clear in all the other passages from Romans.

*Philippians 3:4-11

though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. **For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, *in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

*Finally, Romans 2:28-29:

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.*

 

[Tom317]

Your post requires a simple response:

Exodus 19
*And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now therefore, if you will obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my own possession among all peoples; for all the earth is mine, and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the LORD had commanded him. And all the people answered together and said, “All that the LORD has spoken we will do.” And Moses reported the words of the people to the LORD. And the LORD said to Moses, “Lo, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.”

Romans 11:28-32
As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy. For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all. *

 

[Melchior]

Your post requires a simple response:

Exodus 19
*And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now therefore, if you will obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my own possession among all peoples; for all the earth is mine, and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the LORD had commanded him. And all the people answered together and said, “All that the LORD has spoken we will do.” And Moses reported the words of the people to the LORD. And the LORD said to Moses, “Lo, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.”

Romans 11:28-32
As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake*; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy. For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

Come one, Tom. I quoted the same verse in context of the rest of Romans that led up to that. You ignored the majority of the scriptures I posted. I was careful to use several from Romans that make your interpretation (which I must presume) untenable.

Why would any of the Apostles follow Christ? Why would Paul consider his noble Jewish heritage rubbish for Jesus sake if they did not need Christ - being good Jews and all? Why not have a gentile messiah and gentile apostles? I am sorry, you seem like a nice and intelligent guy but this position is exceedingly weak and requires one to basically ignore the Gospels and almost all the Epistles of the New Testament.

Peace to you,

Mel

 

[Tom317]

Come one, Tom. I quoted the same verse in context of the rest of Romans that led up to that. You ignored the majority of the scriptures I posted. I was careful to use several from Romans that make your interpretation (which I must presume) untenable.

Why would any of the Apostles follow Christ? Why would Paul consider his noble Jewish heritage rubbish for Jesus sake if they did not need Christ - being good Jews and all? Why not have a gentile messiah and gentile apostles? I am sorry, you seem like a nice and intelligent guy but this position is exceedingly weak and requires one to basically ignore the Gospels and almost all the Epistles of the New Testament.

Peace to you,

Mel

Man, you do like tossing out the insults don’t you?

Look, it is this simple, God’s promises are NEVER revoked, which means the Jews remain God’s chosen people. We can fight back and forth for days and I can tell you will not budge. I did not pull anything out of context, you just cannot what those passages imply. Do I need to post the many OT verses that cannot be argued with in terms of God’s promises to the Jews? Do we really need to go tit-for-tat when in fact you will listen to nothing?

The one thing we agree on is that Jesus is the savior of all people, including the Jews. Every Jew who is saved will be saved by Christ…to that we will agree–I think.

Now, this is not to say that every Jew will be saved, I never said that, and neither does the Bible. Yet, faithful Jews will be saved by Christ because Christ is God and God made irrevocable promises to His very own people. Sadly, I think there are probably not a very high percentage of faithful JEws today, yet those who are truly faithful to God and to the covenant they agreed on will be saved by God–Jesus Christ!

One cannot say “God” without also meaning “Jesus” for Jesus is God!

Nothing makes this view more clear then:

Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

God has allowed the Jews hearts to be hardened on order to save the gentiles, yet as God says “…all Israel will be saved.”

 

[Tom317]

Btw,

If your view is correct, then Abraham, Jacob, Isacc, Moses, David, et al, are all in hell right now! For they lived long before Christ and did not accept Christ and they were Jews, so under your view they would be in hell because they did not accept Christ as their savior.

Utter nonsense.

 

[Abira]

I believe that Moses and Elijah appeared before the Jesus (Luke 9:28-32) what do you make of this? I take it to mean that we are all connected, and that if this really happened then it is an acceptance.

and also , even those that lived before the time of Jesus have been preached to.

and the discussion is not about Jews from before the time of Jesus… it is about how the two covenents play out for the Jews of today.

 

[Peterdiago]

I think that the issue of pre-Christian Jews not accepting Christ is pretty simply resolved - they were obviously justified and saved under the covenant of the time.

Expecting the Patriarchs to be crystal-ball readers is a bit much!

 

[Reformed1]

The old covenant is not salvific before or after the new covenant’s establishment.

See the following from R. Sungenis.

Scripture:

Please note the underlined sentences:

Hebrews 7:18-19: On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (New American Bible)

Hebrews 8:7-8: For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one. But he finds fault with them and says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will conclude a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. (NAB)

Hebrews 10:9: Then he says, “Behold, I come to do your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. (NAB)

2Cor 3:14-16: Rather, their thoughts were rendered dull, for to this present day the same veil remains unlifted when they read the old covenant, because through Christ it is taken away. To this day, in fact, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts, but whenever a person turns to the Lord the veil is removed. (NAB)

Gal 3:10-11: For all who depend on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law.” And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for “the one who is righteous by faith will live.”

Gal 5:3-4: Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law. You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

These are just a few of the passages that tell us plainly that the covenant made with Moses was legally abolished and replaced by the New Covenant. In fact, some of the strongest Greek words available are chosen to get the point across (e.g., Heb 7:18: “is annulled,” Greek: ajqevthsiV; Heb 10:9: “takes away,” Greek ajnairei. Consequently, the epistle to the Galatians tells us that those who depend on the law of Moses for a covenant of salvation have put themselves under a curse, for the law cannot justify anyone without the grace of Christ.

 

[Reformed1]

Part deux from R Sungenis

The Catholic Magisterium:

The Church has also issued similar condemnations, especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent:

Council of Florence: It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosiac law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. (Denz. 712).

Council of Florence: For those of the Old Law did not effect grace, but only pronounced that it should be given through the passion of Christ; these sacraments of ours contain grace, and confer it upon those who receive them worthily. (Denz 695).

Council of Trent: Session 6, Canon 1: If anyone shall say that man can be justified before God by his own works which are done either by his own natural powers, or through the teaching of the Law, and without divine grace through Christ Jesus: let him be anathema. (Denz 811).

Council of Trent: Session 6, Chapter 1: The holy Synod decrees first that for a correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of justification it is necessary that each one recognize and confess that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam, “having become unclean”, and (as the Apostle says), “by nature children of wrath”, as it (the Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin, to that extent were they the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not only the gentiles by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom, although free will was not extinguished in them, however weakened and debased in its powers. (Denz 793).

The Roman Catechism, Pius V: But, lest the people, aware of the abrogation of the Mosaic Law, may imagine that the precepts of the Decalogue are no longer obligatory, it should be taught that when God gave the Law to Moses, He did not so much establish a new code, as render more luminous that divine light by which the depraved morals and long*continued perversity of man had at that time almost obscured. It is most certain that we are not bound to obey the Commandments because they were delivered by Moses, but because they are implanted in the hearts of all, and have been explained and confirmed by Christ our Lord.

 

[Reformed1]

Part III from the same R Sungenis

The Fathers and Medievals:

The Fathers also tell us of the inability of the Law to procure justification, and they agree with St. Paul that the Old Covenant Law, as a legal entity devoid of grace, will condemn all in sin. Here is a small sampling of their writings:

Chrysostom: For there are some that say, that he is not here saying what he does of the Law of Moses, but some take it of the law of nature; some, of the commandment given in Paradise. Yet surely Paul’s object everywhere is to annul this Law, but he has not any question with those. And with much reason; for it was through a fear and a horror of this that the Jews obstinately opposed grace. (Homilies on Romans, 6:12).

Augustine: Although, therefore, the apostle seems to reprove and correct those who were being persuaded to be circumcised, in such terms as to designate by the word “law” circumcision itself and other similar legal observances, which are now rejected as shadows of a future substance by Christians who yet hold what those shadows figuratively promised; he at the same time, nevertheless, would have it to be clearly understood that the law, by which he says no man is justified, lies not merely in those sacramental [ceremonial] institutions which contained promissory figures, but also in those works by which whosoever has done them lives holily, and amongst which occurs this prohibition: “Thou shalt not covet.”

Is it possible to contend that it is not the law which was written on those two tablets that the apostle describes as “the letter that killeth,” but the law of circumcision and the other sacred rites which are now abolished? But then how can we think so, when in the law occurs this precept, “Thou shalt not covet,” by which very commandment, notwithstanding it being holy, just, and good, “sin,” says the apostle, “deceived me, and by it slew me”? What else can this be than “the letter” that “killeth”? (On the Spirit and the Letter, NPNF, vol. 5, p. 93).

Thomas Aquinas: “I answer that he is speaking here about keeping the commandments of the Law insofar as the Law consists of ceremonial precepts and moral precepts. This is the Law that is not of faith…Therefore, strictly speaking, he fulfills the command of faith who does not hope to obtain from it anything present and visible, but things invisible and eternal.” (Commentary on Galatians 3:12; Aquinas Scripture Series, trans., F. R. Larcher, p. 83).

 

[Tom317]

I believe that Moses and Elijah appeared before the Jesus (Luke 9:28-32) what do you make of this? I take it to mean that we are all connected, and that if this really happened then it is an acceptance.

and also , even those that lived before the time of Jesus have been preached to.

and the discussion is not about Jews from before the time of Jesus… it is about how the two covenents play out for the Jews of today.

It applies to all JEws, not just after Christ.

 

[Reformed1]

It applies to all JEws, not just after Christ.

Read my previous three posts. The old covenant was never salvific and only pointed the new covenant.

 

[Tom317]

Read my previous three posts. The old covenant was never salvific and only pointed the new covenant.

I agree with that. Christ is the only way to Heaven.

 

[Melchior]

Man, you do like tossing out the insults don’t you?

Look, it is this simple, God’s promises are NEVER revoked, which means the Jews remain God’s chosen people. We can fight back and forth for days and I can tell you will not budge. I did not pull anything out of context, you just cannot what those passages imply. Do I need to post the many OT verses that cannot be argued with in terms of God’s promises to the Jews? Do we really need to go tit-for-tat when in fact you will listen to nothing?

The one thing we agree on is that Jesus is the savior of all people, including the Jews. Every Jew who is saved will be saved by Christ…to that we will agree–I think.

Now, this is not to say that every Jew will be saved, I never said that, and neither does the Bible. Yet, faithful Jews will be saved by Christ because Christ is God and God made irrevocable promises to His very own people. Sadly, I think there are probably not a very high percentage of faithful JEws today, yet those who are truly faithful to God and to the covenant they agreed on will be saved by God–Jesus Christ!

One cannot say “God” without also meaning “Jesus” for Jesus is God!

Nothing makes this view more clear then:

Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

God has allowed the Jews hearts to be hardened on order to save the gentiles, yet as God says “…all Israel will be saved.”

I was not trying to insult you. I am sorry if it came across that way to you. I was “attacking” your position. But certainly not you. I am sorry for seeming harsh.

Let me state it this way. God’s promises are never revoked, we agree. But what you seem to be missing, respectfully, is that all of God’s promises made to Israel were fulfilled in and by Christ. He was a man of Israel and all God’s promises are fulfilled in Him as representative of Israel. Jeremiah prophesied that all nation will similarly be blessed as Israel. This came to pass in Messiah. Tom, I understand that the Jews are the chosen people, this has made me quite proud in the past and I love my heritage and feel particulalry blessed to be a Hebrew. But you are as much a part of true Israel through you baptism as I am. The adopted son is still a son in every sense. We have the same rights the same privledges and the same dire consequences for breaking covenant with God.

Christ fulfilled the promises so they can never be revoked. But Jews must follow Peter and Paul and all the Apostles examples as good Jews and follow their Messiah. This is how they keep covenant.

Peace,

Mel

 

[Melchior]

Btw,

If your view is correct, then Abraham, Jacob, Isacc, Moses, David, et al, are all in hell right now! For they lived long before Christ and did not accept Christ and they were Jews, so under your view they would be in hell because they did not accept Christ as their savior.

Utter nonsense.

Of course not. They looked forward to Messiah and responded in faith to all that was revealed at that time. This simply does not work. After the incarnation Jews had the same responsibility as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and David to be obedient to what has been revealed to them. When the OT Israelites disobeyed they suffered for it. When they obeyed the prospered. Hebrew explains exactly why these men were justified Abraham responded in faith to a promise of Messiah as did David. God blessed them for their faith. Had they lived post Incarnation they would have recognized their Messiah.

 

[Melchior]

Read my previous three posts. The old covenant was never salvific and only pointed the new covenant.

Bingo. Good posts, R1.

Mel

 

[Melchior]

I believe that Moses and Elijah appeared before the Jesus (Luke 9:28-32) what do you make of this? I take it to mean that we are all connected, and that if this really happened then it is an acceptance.

and also , even those that lived before the time of Jesus have been preached to.

and the discussion is not about Jews from before the time of Jesus… it is about how the two covenents play out for the Jews of today.

Exactly. Living before or after Christ is a huge deal. All of human history point to the Cross. The OT saints were saved by that same sacrifice that they waited in anticipation for.

 

[Tom317]

Melchior:

Let me state it this way. God’s promises are never revoked, we agree. But what you seem to be missing, respectfully, is that all of God’s promises made to Israel were fulfilled in and by Christ.

I agree.

He was a man of Israel and all God’s promises are fulfilled in Him as representative of Israel. Jeremiah prophesied that all nation will similarly be blessed as Israel. This came to pass in Messiah. Tom, I understand that the Jews are the chosen people, this has made me quite proud in the past and I love my heritage and feel particulalry blessed to be a Hebrew. But you are as much a part of true Israel through you baptism as I am.

I agree.

The adopted son is still a son in every sense. We have the same rights the same privledges and the same dire consequences for breaking covenant with God.

I agree.

Christ fulfilled to promises so they can never be revoked.

But Jews must follow Peter and Paul and all the Apostles examples as good Jews and follow their Messiah. This is how the keep covenant.

I do not agree. Truly faithful Jews who do not know the gospel will still be saved because they remain chosen sons and daughters of God. Jews who have learned the full truth and reject it are outside of God’s covenant. Most Jews today have never read the New Testament and do not have a clue about why Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah. God will still save them through Christ because His promises are never revoked. Think it through–the Jews before Christ are saved, yet they did not know Christ, and yet they were still saved by Christ’s work on the cross.

 

[Melchior]

Okay. I have to go watch the season premiere of Beauty and the Geek. I will catch up tomorrow. I have my priorities ya know!

Peace to you Tom. I am sorry for being a jerk and disagreeing disagreably. I will wuss out and attribute it to the fact that I woke up at 2:30 this morning and could not get back to sleep.

Mel

 

[Tom317]

Exactly. Living before or after Christ is a huge deal. All of human history point to the Cross. The OT saints were saved by that same sacrifice that they waited in anticipation for.

Exactly. The Jews before Christ were saved by Christ’s completed work on the cross, even though they did not know that is how it would work.