SPLIT: Catholic Doctrines vs Sola Scriptura

[CentralFLJames]

Without a written record we cannot be sure of anything in the past like this. There are no eyewitnesses alive that could bear witness to the truthfulness of this. What we are left with is mere speculation.

It’s called faith JA4. This may come as a surprise to you but Jesus was not particularly found of lawyers:
Luke 11:45-52:

One of the lawyers said to Him in reply, “Teacher, when You say this, You insult us too.” 46 But He said, “**Woe to you lawyers as well! **For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers. 47 “Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and it was your fathers who killed them. 48 “So you are witnesses and approve the deeds of your fathers; because it was they who killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 “For this reason also the wisdom of God said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.’ 52 “**Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering.” **

Please point out in scripture where God says everything He says will be written on stone or parchment. Don’t you think the following scripture verses directly contradicts your notion that all of God’s word is written?
Hebrews 10:16 THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM."

John 14:25 These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, **He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. **

Sorry JA4 but Jesus contradicts you and mentions at least 2 more forms of word that are not necessarily written - the law of the heart and the instruction of the Holy Spirit that causes to to REMEMBER Him.

Eye witnesses accounts are not objectively verifiable. Besides where do we have a written record of any eye witness accounts with affidavits taken from witness by name, date, signature and recording witness? All the lawyers of Jesus’ time are all dead.

Jesus

 

[bookgirl32]

That was true then but not today. All that we have today is the written word of the gospels and it is these writing only that are inspired-inerrant.

Ja4,

So what did Christians have between when the apostles died, and when the scriptures as you know them (the Bible) were established?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Its not comtempt (sp) but a looking at the facts that are used to support doctrines. If there are none then its not about contempt but about speculations and deceptions. Its about leaders and teachers promoting doctrines that are not grounded in facts but on speculations which lead men astray.

It’s amazing how a person who demand facts and claims to believe in Jesus and God goes out of his way to not trust in Jesus or God. Your logic is infantile, specious and conspicuously silent and exclusionary about God’s participation in revealing truth. We already have the written promise in scripture of The Holy Spirit sent to instruct His Church. Are you refusing to believe that God will not reveal through the Holy Spirit His truths?

Your consistent problem JA4 is that you don’t trust God nor God’s Church while you proclaim yourself to be a Christian. How very curious. Under your own theology you seem to not “truly believe”. Are you certain that you are really really really saved and born again?

James

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3538777]It’s amazing how a person who demand facts and claims to believe in Jesus and God goes out of his way to not trust in Jesus or God. Your logic is infantile, specious and conspicuously silent and exclusionary about God’s participation in revealing truth. We already have the written promise in scripture of The Holy Spirit sent to instruct His Church. Are you refusing to believe that God will not reveal through the Holy Spirit His truths?

What i know is that the scriptures warned of false teachers that would lead astray. One way to discern and detect a false teacher is to look at what they teach and compare it with scripture. Are the teachers teaching doctrines and practices that were not taught in the scriptures? When we do this with many catholic teachings we see that they do fail this test. Claiming your church or leader is guided by the Holy Spirit can be claimed by anyone and is. Thats why this claim for your church as always being guided by the HS carries no weight in these discussion. Look at the doctrines. Are they in harmony with Scripture?

Your consistent problem JA4 is that you don’t trust God nor God’s Church while you proclaim yourself to be a Christian. How very curious.

What i don’t trust explicitedly are men who have decieved and are capable of decieving. I would think you would know this if are familar with your church’ history.
What would you have told a catholic during the crusades or inquisitions for example? Would you still have exhorted that catholic if you knew the terrible wicked deeds done to trust the leaders of your church?

Under your own theology you seem to not “truly believe”. Are you certain that you are really really really saved and born again?

Yes.
How about you?

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

You have no way knowing this “Divine guidance” but the word of man. Without facts or the scriptures you have speculations.

Where does it say in scripture that “Without facts or the scriptures you have speculations”?

We have a few problems here JA4. You seem to forget that the Apostles were “men” and by some accounts men who were not immune to character flaws and human weakness. Further we do not have any of the original writings of the Apostles - not one. So how do you know that 12 Jewish fishermen where not your typical guys who loved to tell exaggerated fish stories and fabricated the whole Jesus story to give hope to their friends and family that the Roman occupation would be wiped out by The Messiah?

That is a flippant rhetorical comment to highlight the ridiculous assertions you make.

But take note that YOU or I have no independently verifiable facts ANYWHERE. All we have is faith that was passed on through The Catholic Church accounts and early Church Father’s writings or all we have is speculation masquerading as faith. So please stop beating the dead horse of by “scritpure alone”. You have been riding on the dead sola scriptura beast for 2 years now. Your arguments are sounding more and more like old black and white grade-B movie reruns. It’s high time to get an adult perspective…

James

 

[teadough]

Ja4,

So what did Christians have between when the apostles died, and when the scriptures as you know them (the Bible) were established?

He will probaly avoid that question:blush:

 

[justasking4]

That was true then but not today. All that we have today is the written word of the gospels and it is these writing only that are inspired-inerrant.

bookgirl32
Ja4,

So what did Christians have between when the apostles died, and when the scriptures as you know them (the Bible) were established?

They had the OT scriptures, some of the NT and other non canonical writings that others were writing. Shepard of Hermes was one such writing.

 

[teadough]

They had the OT scriptures, some of the NT and other non canonical writings that others were writing. Shepard of Hermes was one such writing.

some of the New Testament? How do you know this?

 

[guanophore]

Huh? What do you think this thread is about? Its about people who have different beliefs and views. Were supposed to challenge each other on this thread.

No, ja4. It says “compare and contrast” views, not “challenge”. This forum is not provided so you can attack our faith.

You put forth your doctrine, then you castigate us because we do not agree with it, then you tell us what we “should” think and do. This is not “compare and contrast”. It is a form of evangelism and insidious malice.

Don’t worry i limit myself to only a few…

I thank God for His many blessings.

You have no way knowing this “Divine guidance” but the word of man. Without facts or the scriptures you have speculations.

Well, you cannot, because you have been severely wounded and have massive trust issues. Some people did something to you (I suspect so - called Catholics) that has amputated much of your ability to relate to others, including the capacity for trust. However, for those of us who have been through abuse, and found healing, we find that we can trust others. This starts with trusting God will keep His word, and secondly, that He can work through fallible people to bring about Truth. We believe that the HS guides the Church “into all truth”, just as Jesus promised.

Mary probably died before 90. There is no eyewitness documentary evidence from this time period. The Scriptures also don’t mention it.

The Apostolic teaching says otherwise, ja4. We are not misled by scholars, as you appear to be. Furthermore, the belief in Mary’s assumption is not “Roman”, it is held by all of the Apostolic faiths. Catholics see the evidence of this in the book fo John,who was an eyewitness, and we have more witnesses to count throughout the centuries in the life of the Church. The Church has many external confirmations of Mary, and since we are not bound to the Scripture, we can accept this evidence with gladness.

This still would not be proof of her assumption. Your still removed over 400 years from the supposed event.

It is curious this is any concern to you, ja4. As a ‘bible christian’ you know that the canon was not closed until that date also, and you seem to have no problem recognizing that?!

Its not in there as far as i know.

So, we can agree that Jude is quoting an authoritative source that does not exist in the OT canon?

If you are thinking this is some kind of “oral tradiiton” you have failed to show that. In fact i know its impossible to show that it was since you have no record of it.

Right. That is the nature of Oral Tradition. So, if Jude is quoting this “fact” as authoritative teaching, and it is not in the OT, where is there another source of authoritative teaching?

From the context, it is clear that the Apostle considered this “fact” (not 'speculation"). Where did this “fact” come from, since it did not come from the inspired-inerrant scripture?

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3538824]
Originally Posted by justasking4
You have no way knowing this “Divine guidance” but the word of man. Without facts or the scriptures you have speculations.

CentralFLJames
Where does it say in scripture that “Without facts or the scriptures you have speculations”?

It doesn’t but it is true nonetheless. This principle would also apply to other areas of life and study.

We have a few problems here JA4. You seem to forget that the Apostles were “men” and by some accounts men who were not immune to character flaws and human weakness. Further we do not have any of the original writings of the Apostles - not one. So how do you know that 12 Jewish fishermen where not your typical guys who loved to tell exaggerated fish stories and fabricated the whole Jesus story to give hope to their friends and family that the Roman occupation would be wiped out by The Messiah?

That is a flippant rhetorical comment to highlight the ridiculous assertions you make.

Let me ask you something. If someone came to you and claimed to have been kidnapped by a UFO and you asked for evidence and there was none, would you believe it? Would you continue to believe if a more natural explaniation made better sense?

But take note that YOU or I have no independently verifiable facts ANYWHERE. All we have is faith that was passed on through The Catholic Church accounts and early Church Father’s writings or all we have is speculation masquerading as faith.

Not so. The gospel accounts are the best attested ancient history in the world for a number of reasons. It far surpasses secular historical accounts of the period.

So please stop beating the dead horse of by “scritpure alone”. You have been riding on the dead sola scriptura beast for 2 years now. Your arguments are sounding more and more like old black and white grade-B movie reruns. It’s high time to get an adult perspective…

I can understand your frustration. However when it comes to doctrines and practices for the church, that church must be true to what Christ and His aposltes taught or they are out of harmony with Christ. We haven’t even begun to explore its riches and depths. So don’t expect me to give up on this anytime soon…

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

What i don’t trust explicitedly are men who have decieved and are capable of decieving. I would think you would know this if are familar with your church’ history.
What would you have told a catholic during the crusades or inquisitions for example? Would you still have exhorted that catholic if you knew the terrible wicked deeds done to trust the leaders of your church?

All men are capable of deceiving JA4 but I think you imagine that 99% of “men” are running around as agents for Satan trying to deceive JA4. You seem to be fixated on deception rather than being centered on truth all while embracing one of the world’s largest deceptions - sola scriptura and the great lie coming out of the Protestant Revolution. Are you 100% convinced that Luther and the Reformers are not capable of deception JA4? Do you imagine that Luther and the gang were exempted from being deceivers and they were authorized to declare themselves as “new apostles”? Where in scripture do we get Jesus telling us “I will send my servant Luther to save you from My Church when She falls into error”? Good Lord JA4 - you are beyond anything I can do for you if you buy into this absurdity. I truly think you may need professional help and cult deprogramming. Someone must have got to you long ago in your formative years and made you go look for the devil in everything but in the false teachings you embrace…

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

They had the OT scriptures, some of the NT and other non canonical writings that others were writing. Shepard of Hermes was one such writing.

Are you telling us that God made His Church read non-scriptural sources before the bible was written!!!

Where does it say in scripture that 'the Lord your God will permit you to read non-canonical works while we wait for the slow and bureaucratic Catholic Church to ratify all that I have said and publish what they will call The Bible; even it if were to take 400-500 years"?

James

 

[teadough]

Are you telling us that God made His Church read non-scriptural sources before the bible was written!!!

Where does it say in scripture that 'the Lord your God will permit you to read non-canonical works while we wait for the slow and bureaucratic Catholic Church to ratify all that I have said and publish what they will call The Bible; even it if were to take 400-500 years"?

James

I know. It’s crazy,right?

That is why I asked how he even knew that they had a NT.

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3538882]
Originally Posted by justasking4
They had the OT scriptures, some of the NT and other non canonical writings that others were writing. Shepard of Hermes was one such writing.

CentralFLJames
Are you telling us that God made His Church read non-scriptural sources before the bible was written!!!

I don’t know if "God made the church read “non-scriptural sources” before the Bible or not. Good literature based on the Scriptures has usually been good for Christians to read. Christians should not just limit themselves only to the Scriptures but to other things as well.

Where does it say in scripture that 'the Lord your God will permit you to read non-canonical works while we wait for the slow and bureaucratic Catholic Church to ratify all that I have said and publish what they will call The Bible; even it if were to take 400-500 years"?

It doesn’t.

James

 

[Bishopite]

You have no way knowing this “Divine guidance” but the word of man. Without facts or the scriptures you have speculations.

Interestingly, you have NO way of knowing what are the scriptures without the Catholic Church being lead by the Holy Spirit to infallibly recognize what where the inspired/inerrent scriptures.
God inspired them, He allowed the Catholic Church’s magisterium to authoritatively recognize the canon, first in 382 AD at the council of Rome under Pope Damasus who cites the first authoritative list from the early Church; post Apostolic prereformation period.

How do you know that the book of Hebrews should be in the canon?
Nowhere does the bible give a canon list, ergo, you actually rely on the authority of the Catholic Church’s decision for the ability to say that the scriptures are authoritative.

 

[guanophore]

Where is the evidence for this so called Sacred Tradition that is not in the scripture itself? You keep making this assertion and failing to show what exactly it is. Assumptions are not proof.

No, ja4. It is not really possible to “prove” matters of faith. If that were the case, faith would not be necessary, would it?

“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Heb 11:1-2

Hope is not found in “facts” ja4, and having conviction does not always depend upon “facts”. On the contrary, it is present when things are “not seen”. Unfortunately, you are robbing yourself of a blessing from Jesus:

John 20:29
29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

There is no “proof” to satisfy you, ja4, because you have an unbelieving heart. Furthermore, you are in the same spiritual state as Paul was when the Church would not receive him, since he was a persecutor.

“And when he had come to Jerusalem he attempted to join the disciples; and they were all afraid of him, for they did not believe that he was a disciple.” Acts 9:26

Why did they not believe?

Gal 1:13
" I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it…"

This accurately describes what you are trying to do here on CAF. You try to pursuade Catholics to challenge their leadership and depose them for teaching error, to abandon the Sacred Traditions that have been passed down, and to look for errors in the Holy Bride of Christ.

Fortunately, the Catholics here are strong in their faith, and will not admit you as an authoritative source.

That was true then but not today. All that we have today is the written word of the gospels and it is these writing only that are inspired-inerrant.

My brother, you are free to reject the Apostolic Teaching by convincing yourself that it was “discontinued” when the canon was closed. This is your perogative. You are made in the image and likeness of God, and that means you have the choice to reject Him.

Your effort to draw the children of God here astray will have eternal consequences:

Matt 18:5-6
5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

I am not sure if you have ever done a study on the millstone, but now might be a good time.

May God release you from the millstone that you have willfully fastened about your neck, and lift you up from the waters, and set your feet upon solid ground. May Mary, who was pierced through the heart with pain just as you have been, pray for you, that you may be healed of the deep wounds that were inflicted upon you by Catholics. And may God have mercy upon the souls of the persons that produced such a spiteful and distrusting fruit.

It’s amazing how a person who demand facts and claims to believe in Jesus and God goes out of his way to not trust in Jesus or God. Your logic is infantile, specious and conspicuously silent and exclusionary about God’s participation in revealing truth. We already have the written promise in scripture of The Holy Spirit sent to instruct His Church. Are you refusing to believe that God will not reveal through the Holy Spirit His truths?

Your observations are very accurate about ja4. This is the result of a wound that has occurred in early childhood. The results of such wounds is to damage the ability to trust and have faith. Somehow, in spite of Catholics wounding him, he was able to find and cling to the Bible, and this is his life buoy. He is hobbling along, leaning on the “truth” the best he can from the scripture, as he is able to understand it in his limited way.

Your consistent problem JA4 is that you don’t trust God nor God’s Church while you proclaim yourself to be a Christian. How very curious. Under your own theology you seem to not “truly believe”. Are you certain that you are really really really saved and born again?

James

When a person has been traumatized, trust is very difficult. When one grows up in a “crazy” environment, one can only cling to one’s own apprehension of reality in order to survive. When the authorities lie, and abuse their power, a youngster learns to distrust authority, and all that is “said” because it is unreliable. What we see here is the fruit of early childhood trauma.

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3538864]All men are capable of deceiving JA4 but I think you imagine that 99% of “men” are running around as agents for Satan trying to deceive JA4.

Not so. Most of my discussions here have been on a handful of doctrines and practices of your church.

You seem to be fixated on deception rather than being centered on truth all while embracing one of the world’s largest deceptions - sola scriptura and the great lie coming out of the Protestant Revolution.

Do you think the catholic church had any fault in the cause of the reformation?

Are you 100% convinced that Luther and the Reformers are not capable of deception JA4?

They all are capable of deception.

Do you imagine that Luther and the gang were exempted from being deceivers and they were authorized to declare themselves as “new apostles”?

No. Did they really declare themselves the “new apostles”?

Where in scripture do we get Jesus telling us “I will send my servant Luther to save you from My Church when She falls into error”?

He doesn’t specifically. However the Scriptures do exhort all believers to be on guard for false teachers and teachings.

Good Lord JA4 - you are beyond anything I can do for you if you buy into this absurdity.

Not to worry…

I truly think you may need professional help and cult deprogramming. Someone must have got to you long ago in your formative years and made you go look for the devil in everything but in the false teachings you embrace…

If i’m crazy as you suggest then you might want to look at how terrible you have defended your church. You spend a lot of time on rhetoric instead of countering my arguments. Don’t worry though you have a lot of company…

James

 

[teadough]

Have you studied church history or catholic doctrines such as the marian doctrines, purgatory and indulgences? Keep in mind that if you convert to catholicism you will be embracing a lot of doctrines and practices not taught by Jesus or His apostles.

I don’t know if "God made the church read “non-scriptural sources” before the Bible or not. Good literature based on the Scriptures has usually been good for Christians to read. Christians should not just limit themselves only to the Scriptures but to other things as well.

You have admitted that Scripture alone is not sufficient in every way with the exception of saying “scripture alone is not sufficient and Traditions and sacred traditions are very important”.

 

[justasking4]

You have admitted that Scripture alone is not sufficient in every way with the exception of saying “scripture alone is not sufficient and Traditions and sacred traditions are very important”.

 

[teadough]

You even say:

However the Scriptures do exhort all believers to be on guard for false teachers and teachings.