SPLIT: Catholic Doctrines vs Sola Scriptura

[teadough]

yeah,right here.

justasking4-Christians should not just limit themselves only to the Scriptures but to other things as well.

are you still ?

 

[CentralFLJames]

It doesn’t but it is true nonetheless. This principle would also apply to other areas of life and study.

So you are admitting that some truth is not to be found in written in scripture?

Let me ask you something. If someone came to you and claimed to have been kidnapped by a UFO and you asked for evidence and there was none, would you believe it? Would you continue to believe if a more natural explaniation (sp) made better sense?

But this is the same sort of eye witness account from people 2000 years ago that you want us to put our eternal trust in. How do you know somone did not fib?

So let me ask you would you believe that a poor Jewish carpenter’s son was God if He just walked up and told you so? Would you believe any differently if he handed you a written resume?

Not so. The gospel accounts are the best attested ancient history in the world for a number of reasons. It far surpasses secular historical accounts of the period.

So we believe - but relative superiority is no guarantee of infallability is it? It all comes down to faith.

I can understand your frustration. However when it comes to doctrines and practices for the church, that church must be true to what Christ and His aposltes (sp) taught or they are out of harmony with Christ. We haven’t even begun to explore its riches and depths. So don’t expect me to give up on this anytime soon…

But again, why would you even think to teach the Teacher or to police the Church? This all sounds like an inverted sort of authority relationship where the students threaten to beat up the teacher unless she teaches them what the students want to hear.

You need to face the fact that you are opposed to the God given authority of the Church and the fact that you are unable to trust anyone but yourself and your own interpretations. The Church has explored the riches and depths of the scriptures AND traditions for 2000 years with thousands of the world’s best scholars and spiritually enlightened men and women. You need to start availing yourself to all that profound scholarship and not try to reinvent the wheel. Who do you use to proof read your own interpretations? The Church has used scripture and thousands of scholars to peer review its works.

James

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3538970]So you are admitting that some truth is not to be found in written in scripture?

Of course. Scripture does not contain all truth.

But this is the same sort of eye witness account from people 2000 years ago that you want us to put our eternal trust in. How do you know somone did not fib?

The evidence shows otherwise. There are many reasons to believe this is not a fib.

So let me ask you would you believe that a poor Jewish carpenter’s son was God if He just walked up and told you so?

Not on His words alone but in conjunction with all His miracles. Especially His resurrection.

Would you believe any differently if he handed you a written resume?

If He was here it would take more than that.

So we believe - but relative superiority is no guarantee of infallability is it? It all comes down to faith.

Faith based on facts.

But again, why would you even think to teach the Teacher or to police the Church? This all sounds like an inverted sort of authority relationship where the students threaten to beat up the teacher unless she teaches them what the students want to hear.

Scripture exhorts believers to be on guard against false teachers at all times.

You need to face the fact that you are opposed to the God given authority of the Church and the fact that you are unable to trust anyone but yourself and your own interpretations.

I’m not against the church but its false teachers and teachings.

The Church has explored the riches and depths of the scriptures AND traditions for 2000 years with thousands of the world’s best scholars and spiritually enlightened men and women. You need to start availing yourself to all that profound scholarship and not try to reinvent the wheel.

Thats a good point. I have repeatedly used catholic scholars who in many cases don’t support your beliefs.

Who do you use to proof read your own interpretations?

I use a number of commentaries and lexicons.

The Church has used scripture and thousands of scholars to peer review its works.

What do you do when they all don’t agree and your church has never ruled on a given issue?

James

 

[guanophore]

What i know is that the scriptures warned of false teachers that would lead astray.

It is ok, ja4. Be at peace! We know you are here, and we are on guard! :knight2:

One way to discern and detect a false teacher is to look at what they teach and compare it with scripture.

Well, this is true, however those Holy Writings are not well understood by those who are separated from the Apostolic Teaching which produced them.

Are the teachers teaching doctrines and practices that were not taught in the scriptures?

Yes, for two reasons.

1. The scriptures do not “teach”. People ‘teach’.

Eph 4:11-14
And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; 14 so that we may no longer be children…"

The teachers were never meant to be separated from the Apostolic authority that created the NT.

When we do this with many catholic teachings we see that they do fail this test. Claiming your church or leader is guided by the Holy Spirit can be claimed by anyone and is. Thats why this claim for your church as always being guided by the HS carries no weight in these discussion. Look at the doctrines. Are they in harmony with Scripture?

This is true. Catholic doctrines are not “based in scripture”. on the contrary, the Teachings proceed directly from Jesus through the Apostles. The entirety of the NT was created from Jesus, through the Apostles, and their disciples. Therefore, when properly interpreted, the whole of the NT is consistent with Catholic Teaching. The Catholic Church predated the Scriptures from 20-60 years over which it was produced. The whole contents of the NT comes from the Sacred Tradition of Jesus Teachings.

It is amazing to me that you would say that you would say

Claiming your church or leader is guided by the Holy Spirit can be claimed by anyone and is. Thats why this claim for your church as always being guided by the HS carries no weight in these discussion.

Jesus Christ is Head of the Church. It appears that you are accusing Christ of error! I agree, the claim of being led by the HS is claimed by many (such as yourself) and it carries no weight in any of these discussions. Jesus is God. To say that He is not Head of the Church, or that He is not always infallible is a terrible heresy.

What i don’t trust explicitedly are men who have decieved and are capable of decieving. I would think you would know this if are familar with your church’ history.
What would you have told a catholic during the crusades or inquisitions for example? Would you still have exhorted that catholic if you knew the terrible wicked deeds done to trust the leaders of your church?

I am with you on this point. It is not right to trust the unjust, which is why it is right for you not to trust those in authority that wounded you. Be they your parents, or others that claimed to be people of faith, they betrayed any promises to God they ever made. It is right for you to not trust men who have been deceived and capable of deceving. However, the Church is calling you to trust Jesus, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, and how He works through righteous men. The wicked deeds of men (such as Judas) do not nullify the One Holy Bride that Jesus has sanctified to Himself.

Not so. Most of my discussions here have been on a handful of doctrines and practices of your church.

I thank the Lord Almighty for His many blessings!

He doesn't specifically. However the Scriptures do exhort all believers to be on guard for false teachers and teachings.

Be at peace, ja4. We are aware that you are here, and we are on guard! :knight1:

If i’m crazy as you suggest then you might want to look at how terrible you have defended your church. You spend a lot of time on rhetoric instead of countering my arguments. Don’t worry though you have a lot of company…

No, you dont’ qualify for “crazy”. This category is reserved for those who are not connected to reality. You are connected, but your connection has been wounded and distorted from trauma inflicted upon you by persons in a position of authority. Persons I suspect were purporting to be Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

It doesn’t but it is true nonetheless. This principle would also apply to other areas of life and study.

This is very interesting. So, you are saying that the Bible nowhere states that what is not written in it is necessarily untrue. You are basically saying that you are applying a principle of your own apprehension to determine truth. “This principle” (if it is not in the Bible it is a speculation of men") is an extrabiblical concept.

I will also note that this is a method used by people who have been severely traumatized to cling to some semblance of reality, so that they can survive horrrific abuse. I am sorry that this happened to you, ja4.

Let me ask you something. If someone came to you and claimed to have been kidnapped by a UFO and you asked for evidence and there was none, would you believe it? Would you continue to believe if a more natural explaniation made better sense?

I think this is not a good example. People’s experiences should be considered as “evidence” just as much as scientific evidence. By your own report, you were wounded by so-called Catholics. This should be considered a valid self report, and is as much “evidence” as any objective data. Information should not be discounted just because it is subjective.

Not so. The gospel accounts are the best attested ancient history in the world for a number of reasons. It far surpasses secular historical accounts of the period.

Yes, because so many documents have been lost. However, to say that the Teachings of the church were lost to history is equivalent to saying that God is not able to watch over His word to perform it!

I can understand your frustration. However when it comes to doctrines and practices for the church, that church must be true to what Christ and His aposltes taught or they are out of harmony with Christ. We haven’t even begun to explore its riches and depths. So don’t expect me to give up on this anytime soon…

I agreee that the Church need so to be true to what Christ and His Apostles taught so that they can be in harmony with Christ. I hope you don’t give up, but your privilege to level accusation against the church of Christ is coming to an end.

 

[Church_Militant]

Have you read all of them since you are promoting them? Does the catholic church regard all their writings as Tradition?

Have you? I’m still working my way through, but I have read the earliest ones.

Yes, they do, but I suspect that they also cross over into Magisterial teachings as well.

Do you consider the

ECF’ writings at the same level as the Scriptures?Irrelevant what I consider… I’m not the one in authority. If you read the Catechism on The Transmission of Divine Revelation, (and yes I mean that whole long thing and the footnotes as well) I think you’d begin to have a better understanding of this.

Does everything they write in agreement with the Scriptures?

If you’ve read them then you wouldn’t be asking that, now would you?

This is also irrelevant since nowhere does the Bible assert itself as supreme authority. It’s just simply not in there and since that is the case, the ECF does not always have to agree with it. However, since the Bible is 100% inspired and the ECF is not 100% inspired, the turn to the authority that the Bible sets as “the pillar and ground of the truth”…(What does the New Testament plainly tell us that is?) The Church. (1st Timothy 3:15)

 

[Church_Militant]

i read your blog and it fails to support your beliefs on this.

I disagree. The case I make is a straight up Bible study. How is my interpretation (which in this case is also that of the Catholic Church for some 2,000 years) less valid than your own? Even if I were not a Catholic I would see the scriptural teaching on this and reject the n-C errant doctrines.

For one, Jesus breathed on them i.e. the disciples who were not priests in the catholic sense.

In your opinion, yet the New Testament goes on to teach the very functions that Catholic priests carry out today. That’s all through the New Testament. Your opinion is wrong.

Secondly there is not one example in the scriptures of any of these disciples hearing someone’ confession or giving some kind of absolution.

I would beg to differ with you since St. James plainly says exactly that in Chapter 5 of his epistle.

Look at I John 1:9 in which you quote. Not only is there no priest mentioned in this passage but there is no mention of one in the entire letter.

So now you intend to assert that James and John had different understandings of their commission from Christ? I’m sorry but that just doesn’t hold up to the context of the New Testament.

You may wish it were but its clearly not mentioned in scripture or the early fathers as far as i can tell until the 3rd century.

One of the things that is so blind about Protestant apologetics is their complete disregard (and often ignorance of) any historical perspective. Do you suppose that prior to the 4th century and the Edict of Milan, there was any way to formalize and organize the Church? Before you try to assert some positive affirmation of your position, remember that those first 312 years of the Church were fraught with constant persecutions. Naturally, after the Edict things came together better.

 

[Church_Militant]

Before i respond to this i need to know what you mean by Sola Scriptura?

Summed up here. MATERIAL AND FORMAL SUFFICIENCY

Even so, n-Cs disagree on their own fundamental doctrine, but the Catholic position is concisely stated there.

 

[Church_Militant]

Nonsense. I have speaking directly to cherished catholic beliefs that i know from expierence if you challenge them will be hated for doing so. Its not about being a martyr but a fact when a person engages for Christ.

Hogwash! Does anyone here on this thread hate this guy for his errant arguments against our most holy faith?

Does anyone here on this thread fail to pray for this guy regularly?

You flatter yourself and judge us. Remember what Our Lord said about that. 1 Judge not, that you may not be judged, 2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.
(Matthew 7)

You oppose the truth. I have continually demonstrated many errors in catholic teachings by Scripture and history. You and others have not been able to refute these facts.

Again… hogwash! I have answered every allegation made to me about the Catholic faith with scripture and facts. Just because you obstinately refuse to consider that your teachers and preachers over all these years (assuming that you are well over 21…) have been dead wrong and have led you into error is not my fault or the fault of my Catholic brothers and sisters, nor even of the Catholic Church itself.

The fact is that when we all stand before Christ at judgement He will call us to account for all that we heard. Personally, I will answer for many things, but rejecting the truth will not be one of them.

Then lets test what you have learned by studying the doctrines and practices of the catholic church. Lets compare them with the scriptures and see where it leads.

Again…too late! I have already done so and I reject all the teachings of the so-called Reformation that do not align with the teachings of the Catholic Church. I have already done this and it led me home to the Catholic faith.

There is far more to discuss than the Eucharistic Real Presence.

Indeed there is but I’m not the one denying it.

Are you willing to discuss these matters?

No… I spend all this time on CAF discussing knitting. Check my post history. If there was a “been there, done that” tee shirt for it, I’d have a closet full of them by now.:juggle:

Or maybe we could take some of your posts on your blog and discuss them. What do you think?

Your call…your problem. Be sure to open a separate thread on each topic. I hope you can do better than you have done so far.

 

[Church_Militant]

Its not comtempt but a looking at the facts that are used to support doctrines. If there are none then its not about contempt but about speculations and deceptions. Its about leaders and teachers promoting doctrines that are not grounded in facts but on speculations which lead men astray.

Funny… that is pretty much my definition of Protestant teachings.
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

My Reformation Theory

 

[Church_Militant]

Sorry brother, that’s not the purpose of this forum. The purpose of this forum is so that those who are sincerely inquiring into the Catholic Faith (which you clearly are not), can get authentic answers, not the misguided misinformation that they get from Protestants.

May the Peace of the Lord be with you always.

You servant in Christ.

Correct.

The CAF Statement of Purpose

 

[Church_Militant]

What i know is that the scriptures warned of false teachers that would lead astray. One way to discern and detect a false teacher is to look at what they teach and compare it with scripture. Are the teachers teaching doctrines and practices that were not taught in the scriptures?

And when this test is applied to the teachings of the Reformers and their modern step children they fail.

Look at Sola Scriptura as their fundamental error and then count up all the errant doctrines that cascade down from it. It’s sad.

When we do this with many catholic teachings we see that they do fail this test.

In your errant opinion and based upon the fundamental error that protestant theology is founded upon, but the fact is that the opposite is true when one takes the Bible literally and not with a literalistic interpretation one discovers the fullness of truth which is the Catholic faith and wonders how anyone calling themselves a Bible Christian could have missed it.

Claiming your church or leader is guided by the Holy Spirit can be claimed by anyone and is. Thats why this claim for your church as always being guided by the HS carries no weight in these discussion. Look at the doctrines. Are they in harmony with Scripture?

Yes… in fact they are…as I have shown you again and again.

Apply the same test to your own beliefs. They are not.

What i don’t trust explicitedly are men who have decieved and are capable of decieving. I would think you would know this if are familar with your church’ history.

The only one deceived and deceiving here is you JA4. I have held back on you but you are just so far out of line now that I suspect the mods will take an interest in this post.

If, as I, and many of my fellow Catholics have pointed out to you, Sola Scriptura is a gross error in doctrine and has allowed those deceived into believing it to fall further into errors based upon its principles, then the fact is that Protestants need to get serious and sit down with a prayerful and open heart and begin to put what they have been taught to the very test that you ask Catholics to do, (and which I personally have already done, which is precisely why I am a Catholic.) and once they have resolved all of this they will find Catholics waiting with open arms and hearts to receive them home. (even you)

What would you have told a catholic during the crusades or inquisitions for example?

What do you tell soldiers today that serve our country in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Would you still have exhorted that catholic if you knew the terrible wicked deeds done to trust the leaders of your church?

Here you are so far afield and offensive that I’m reporting your post. You allege a lot of stuff…but you make three serious mistakes.

1. You believe what you have read in a-C sources and have not bothered to read both sides. (I believe that you are not really open to dialog, but post here with an anti-Catholic agenda to evangelize Catholics away from our most holy faith, which is a violation of Banned Topics # 8
2. You blindly ignore the similar and equally gross errors and misconduct of your own Protestant “ancestors”.
3. You refuse to apply the same standards to your own beliefs that you expect of us. That is either closed minded or hypocritical but I’m not sure which.

I’m really saddened that after all this time here you are not better than this. Oh well. I’m done with you.

Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off even the dust of your feet, for a testimony against them.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread closed pending my review.
MF