SPLIT: Confession to priest not necessary

[Randy_Carson]

You want me to summarize a summary?

I think you must want me to expand upon what I’ve said.

1. Did Jesus give the apostles the power to forgive sins? Yes or no.

I’ve already said “no”

To expand, I’ve already said the Apostles cannot forgive sins in the same sense as God forgives.

Why, because the Holy Scriptures clearly state Only God can forgive sins. Jesus could forgive sins because Jesus is God incarnate. The Apostles cannot forgive sins as God forgives sins because they are not God.

Scriptures:
Who forgives sins?
Psa 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Do we need to go to a priest to be forgiven, or can we go directly to God?
Psa 25:11 For thy name’s sake, O LORD, pardon mine iniquity; for it [is] great.
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

Doesn’t say “I will confess to a priest and thou will forgive”

I guess that renders the second question irrelevant.

Isn’t it telling that you have only quoted OT passages in support of your denial that Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles?

Please explain each of the following verses carefully:

Matthew 9:1-8 (Mark 2:1-12, Luke 5:17-26)
Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!” Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” And the man got up and went home. When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

What does “given such authority to men” mean?

Matthew 18:18
I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

What does binding and loosing “on earth” mean?

John 20:21-23
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

What does “if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven” mean?

Thanks.

 

[broski234]

I believe Catholics have misinterpreted the Scripture they use to support this doctrine.

Ginger,

Did God give man the power to forgive sins?( read matthew) Yes He did. Did Jesus tell the apostles “whose sins you forgive, are forgiven; whose sins you retain, are retained”. Yes He did. Did Paul not say that they (apostles) were given the ministry of reconciliation by Jesus? Yes He did. Does James 5:14-17 say to confess our sins to one another? Yes it does. So if Jesus gave the apostles this power to forgive sins, and told us to confess our sins to one another, and God gave man the power to forgive sins, it wouldn’t make sense for God to do so if we weren’t meant to confess our sins to a priest in the sacrament of Reconciliation. Question: Where does the bible say to confess our sins to God alone?

Broski234

 

[Ginger2]

Isn’t it telling that you have only quoted OT passages in support of your denial that Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles?

I quoted NT passages earlier. What would be the point of repeating myself?

 

[Ginger2]

Please explain each of the following verses carefully:…

What does “given such authority to men” mean?

First answer a question for me, please.

Which disciples at this point have perform any miracles?

 

[RubyT]

Ginger and Windgirl,

No response to post 108? I took the time to repsond to you, please respond to my post.

 

[Solomon_Wisdom]

I find it much more humbling to talk to God directly and go directly to the person who may tell me off and not accept my apology.

Yes that is, I think, an excellent way to demonstrate real contrition. God bless you.

Personally I don’t think confession to a priest is mutually exclusive with your approach. I think your approach is excellent but confession to a priest can help when we can’t directly confess to those we have wronged. The focus of both approaches is, of course, trying to bring oursleves back in line with how God wants us to be and that (to me) seems to be the primary focus. Sometimes, I think, we get too focussed on the method rather than on what we are trying to achieve.

When I can I do what you do (and personally I would not feel the need to confess that sin again). But I also find confession very remedial when it is not as simple as acknowleding a wrong against another single person.

I can only speak for myself, but my spiritual journey is always trying (and often failing) to align my life with how I know God wants me to live. For me confession to a priest or another is very much part of that plan but I think (and I could of course be wrong) that the primary intent is to always to try and draw ever closer to God’s plan rather than trying to follow any particular set of rules.

 

[Ginger2]

Ginger and Windgirl,

No response to post 108? I took the time to repsond to you, please respond to my post.

I missed that post. It wasn’t directed to me.

But the Bible says the Holy Spirit will guide us to truth. It doesn’t say Peter and his successors, it says the HS.

Thank you for asking.

 

[Ginger2]

Yes that is, I think, an excellent way to demonstrate real contrition. God bless you.

Personally I don’t think confession to a priest is mutually exclusive with your approach. I think your approach is excellent but confession to a priest can help when we can’t directly confess to those we have wronged. The focus of both approaches is, of course, trying to bring oursleves back in line with how God wants us to be and that (to me) seems to be the primary focus. Sometimes, I think, we get too focussed on the method rather than on what we are trying to achieve.

When I can I do what you do (and personally I would not feel the need to confess that sin again). But I also find confession very remedial when it is not as simple as acknowleding a wrong against another single person.

I can only speak for myself, but my spiritual journey is always trying (and often failing) to align my life with how I know God wants me to live. For me confession to a priest or another is very much part of that plan but I think (and I could of course be wrong) that the primary intent is to always to try and draw ever closer to God’s plan rather than trying to follow any particular set of rules.

I have no objection to what you say. There is nothing wrong with confessing to a priest.

My objection is the assumption we are absolutely forgiven because we confessed to a priest. That is unbiblical.

We are forgiven by God when we sincerely repent and not simply because we confess.

Only God knows our heart, not the priest.

 

[Solomon_Wisdom]

I have no objection to what you say. There is nothing wrong with confessing to a priest.

My objection is the assumption we are absolutely forgiven because we confessed to a priest. That is unbiblical.

We are forgiven by God when we sincerely repent and not simply because we confess.

Only God knows our heart, not the priest.

I certainly agree that it is always useful to remember how Christ started his ministry - “Repent - for the kingdom of God is at hand”. And that is a constant reminder to always turn to God/Christ in repentance. And I certainly agree only God is able to fully search our heart. Confession is part of that but certainly not all (and that is why I prefer the term “sacrament of reconcilliation” as I think that helps us to see abigger picture).

I see the priest in assisting me in this (as mine does) and also in assisting me to understand that my sins really are forgiven (again, as mine does).

And, I think (hope) we will agree - at the core of repentance is turning unconditionally to God - bringing oursleves back to full communion with God with complete faith in his inexhaustable forgiveness and love.

And yes - it is very definitely God who forgives our sins.

 

[Lampo]

But the Bible says the Holy Spirit will guide us to truth.

And what does the Bible say is the pillar and bullwark of truth?

 

[WindGirl]

Quote from Eduardo Siguenza in the book John Paul II The Pope Who Understood Fatima.
Siguenza was referring to the late James Cardinal Gibbons
“By this, he was stressing the need of a God given interpreter for the proper understanding of the faith. He explained, what good is the Constitution, without a Chief Justice to interpret it and apply it properly? The Constitution itself would become a dead letter.”

Cardinal Gibbons concluded, “Of course what use to you is the objective infallibility of the Bible without an infallible interpreter?” Who would protect us from confusion and division? The present existence in the world of over 25,000 different Christian sects is a sobering testimony to this!

I quote this to give a perspective on why Catholics are so adamantly fervent to our doctrine of confession to a priest. Interpretations by all of the sects divided from the Catholic Church are just that, interpretations. One can say why is the Pope the one to decipher, why should we believe the Popes interpretations?

I answer that it is because Jesus himself tells us to respect authority and pray for authority because they are put in place by God himself. To think that Christian sects’ interpretations are somehow more valid than the Pope, who is put in place by God, is rather preposterous. It makes the Bible just another book to be interpreted by any Christian sect as it wishes, by fallible men and fallible interpretations.

It makes sense to let the authority figure (put in place by God) do the interpreting for us. I think the Popes’ interpretations are infallible but for the sake of argument let’s say that: perhaps the Pope is not completely infallible. He is certainly less fallible than the divided Christian church sects throughout the world.

Humility is learned by confessing to the Priest. Humility will lead you to respect authority figures in the Church. Can you really learn humility by confessing your sins directly to God which seems rather convenient to me. Pretty easy to feel bad and say oh God I am so sorry. But to look an authority figure in the face (or through a screen) and admit what you have done, this takes much more strength and fortitude than a private conversation between you and God.

I say that confession directly to God (rather than a priest) is out of convenience and ease instead of true repentance and sorrow for offending God. How much more difficult to get up, get dressed, drive to the church and put yourself in a position where an authority figure can see you and hear you confess. This is much more than a silent prayer in your comfy home. This takes determination, true humility and strong conviction about getting forgiven. You are actually told by the priest what to do and that you are forgiven and must follow his instructions. This in itself is more convincing than the alternative, okay; I have prayed all is forgiven; now I just have to make restitution. It seems too easy and convenient to me. This is just my 2 cents. :twocents:

Nothing personal Windgirl, I am not trying to spread ill will. I am really glad you are here to debate this with us. You are most welcome and have made some strong arguments which had me thinking. Of course they didn’t sway me but it is always good to evaluate our beliefs. Have a wonderfully Merry Christmas. :christmastree1:

ah, da, am I supposed to be capitalizing the word priest/Priest. You know, I must have proper English. I need that proper English. The Proper English and writing skills. Help!!! I just hate those typos, can’t have the typos, typos driving me insane. AHHHHHHHH.

I doubt this will satisfy you but there is only one infallible Being in the universe and that is God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The Bible doesn’t tell me to let another human being infallibly interpret Scripture for me. It does tell me this:

John 1612 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The CC has only, to my understanding, “infallibly” interpreted a few verses for Catholics. What do you do with the rest of the Bible? Just believe your catechism and forget it?

Nothing personal towards you, either. Catholics appear to make a lot of strong arguments for their case but, like you (if the reverse position) I’ve not been swayed from what I believe.

 

[WindGirl]

And what does the Bible say is the pillar and bullwark of truth?

We already know that it’s the church. First, we don’t share your view of church. Second, that Scripture needs to be looked at closer. It’s not giving final authority on what the truth is to the church nor is it placing the church in authority over the Scriptures. What it’s saying is that the church upholds and is grounded in the truth. Jesus tell us that God’s word is the truth in John 17:17. So the church is to be the pillar and ground of the word of God. Can a church be such if it teaches contradictory to the Scriptures/word if God? No, God and His word are still the authority. Christ’s church will uphold that authority, not make itself the authority.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I quoted NT passages earlier. What would be the point of repeating myself?

Once again, you fail to interact with the scriptures I have asked about.

Please explain each of the following verses carefully:

Matthew 9:1-8 (Mark 2:1-12, Luke 5:17-26)
Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!” Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” And the man got up and went home. When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

What does “given such authority to men” mean?

Matthew 18:18
I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

What does binding and loosing “on earth” mean?

John 20:21-23
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

What does “if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven” mean?

 

[Randy_Carson]

First answer a question for me, please.

Which disciples at this point have perform any miracles?

None at the time that Jesus healed the man.

How many disciples had performed miracles or heard confessions by the time Matthew penned his gospel?

 

[RubyT]

I missed that post. It wasn’t directed to me.

But the Bible says the Holy Spirit will guide us to truth. It doesn’t say Peter and his successors, it says the HS.

Thank you for asking.

Ginger Sorry for the assumption that the OP would read my post and respond. Thank you for taking the time to do so.

The Holy Spirit will guide us to truth, to this I agree but it doesn’t mean truth comes all at once. Our spiritual journeys take time, a life time in fact.

I see many Biblical references that speak of confessing to other men(priest), and that the Apostles can forgive, but I can’t find scripture that says confess directly to God. Only Jesus does the forgiving and I see your point but Jesus also tells us that He appointed the Apostles to be able to forgive. Does this mean that priest can actually do the forgiving, probably not(but I am not sure), only Jesus and the Apostles can actually forgive. But the priest still has an important purpose. The priest speaks for God, he is Gods commentator or spokesperson. When you confess directly to God do you get a verbal response or are you speculating that you are forgiven? Do you think you have a link to God that is equal to the priest who had vowed has life to God?(Rhetorical question not meant for you to answer, just contemplate).

The Priest has been through much training and education to be able to discern if a person is indeed truthful and sorry that they have offended God. The priest also can discern the penance needed to show God how sorry you are. I wonder how does an individual know how much penance must be done to rectify the sins? The priest (all clergy) are the closest people to Apostles in todays times. They are intensely trained and also scrutinized by their elders throughout their career; certainly it is better to tell a priest your sins than just any lay person out there in the world. Since the bible says to confess our sins to men, who better than the priest? How do you discern how much prayer and penance to follow through with? (Rhetorical questions not meant for you to answer, just contemplate).

Still God is the only one who knows your heart, but going to the priest tells God you went out of your way to confess and that you read and follow the scripture to confess to men. How does confession in the comfortable surroundings of your home let God know how sorry you are that you offended Him? Do you think some amount of suffering should ensue in order to really be forgiven (Hint: Jesus on the Cross)? IMHO there is little to no suffering in merely confessing to God and supposing you have been forgiven. Jesus had to suffer on the cross and IMHO we also must suffer for our sins. Isn’t getting dressed, driving to church and humbling yourself in front of a priest a bit of suffering? (Rhetorical questions not meant for you to answer, just contemplate).

After all, scripture tells us to confess to men. How does one ignore that scripture and go their own way? Either a person trust the word of God or rejects it; a person can’t pick and choose which verses are appropriate under the pretext that the Holy Spirit will guide them to truth. I won’t rehash the scripture since Broski said it plainly enough below.

I used to confess directly to God and then the Holy Spirit showed me truth. That I was only doing that out of convenience. After much urging in my heart from the Holy Spirit, I finally went to the priest for confession . What a difference in sensing(knowing) that I was forgiven when I did go to the priest for confession.

I had a miracle experience happen to me the very first time I went to confession through a priest immediately after receiving the Eucharist that week. It had been 25 years since I confessed to a priest and during those years did not have such an experience. The experience was profound and included physical evidence. This experience was also verified as an experience from God by a priest.This is my personal testimony and of course you have the right to reject it. I ask that you keep an open heart about these matters so that the Holy Spirit can get through to you in truth. I am not trying to say you don’t have truth but rather that scripture seems to point me to that conclusion. PM me if you would like.

The Holy Spirit will guide us to truth but what does that have to do with forgiveness of sins? The person confessing straight to God IMHO is going against scriptural teaching. Now I do think God hears your confession and hears your prayers and He may choose to forgive you in that manner. After all He is God and can do what He wills. I also think it is in line with Jesus teaching to make confession in the manner that is scriptural. See Broski post below.

Broski234
Did God give man the power to forgive sins?( read matthew) Yes He did.
Did Jesus tell the apostles “whose sins you forgive, are forgiven; whose sins you retain, are retained”. Yes He did.

Did Paul not say that they (apostles) were given the ministry of reconciliation by Jesus? Yes He did.

Does James 5:14-17 say to confess our sins to one another? Yes it does.

So if Jesus gave the apostles this power to forgive sins, and told us to confess our sins to one another, and God gave man the power to forgive sins, it wouldn’t make sense for God to do so if we weren’t meant to confess our sins to a priest in the sacrament of Reconciliation. Question: Where does the bible say to confess our sins to God alone?
Broski234

Ginger much love and respect to you from me. We are all on this Christian journey together. Have a very Merry Christmas.

 

[Randy_Carson]

But the Bible says the Holy Spirit will guide us to truth. It doesn’t say Peter and his successors, it says the HS.

Thank you for asking.

Oh. In that case, are you infallible in your interpretation of scripture? I mean, you have the Holy Spirit guiding you and all… And neither you nor Windgirl ever stopped to answer my questions about how Baptists and Methodists can have completely different positions of infant baptism if both are led by the Spirit. Please…if you are led by the Spirit, can you tell us whether infant baptism is acceptable within the one Church of Christ and why it is that other believers who are also members of the one body of Christ disagree with your position?

+++

Actually, the Bible does not say that the Holy Spirit will guide you personally and individually into all truth. Jesus was speaking to a specific group, the Apostles, whom He had ordained as the leaders of the Church that He promised to build with Peter as its earthly head.

So, to correct your twisted understanding, we are not saying that Peter and his successors guide us into all truth (though they are prevented from teaching error in matters of faith and morals); what we ARE saying is that Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church.

Big difference.

 

[Randy_Carson]

We already know that it’s the church. First, we don’t share your view of church. Second, that Scripture needs to be looked at closer. It’s not giving final authority on what the truth is to the church nor is it placing the church in authority over the Scriptures. What it’s saying is that the church upholds and is grounded in the truth. Jesus tell us that God’s word is the truth in John 17:17. So the church is to be the pillar and ground of the word of God. Can a church be such if it teaches contradictory to the Scriptures/word if God? No, God and His word are still the authority. Christ’s church will uphold that authority, not make itself the authority.

We understand that you cannot come to terms with a proper definition of “Church” because to do so would require you to recognize that you are on the outside looking in…at least, you are out of formal communion. I understand that would be a bitter pill to swallow at this point. It’s hard to hear, but this is your current situation. It’s probably not your fault…you were most likely born into Protestantism; therefore, your heresy is informal and not formal.

But that aside, we agree that the Church which Christ established is to be the support and the protection of the truth. (Bulwark does not mean “grounded in”.)

Now, did Jesus promise that He would build the Church? Yes.

Did Jesus promise that He would remain with that Church forever? Yes.

Did Jesus promise to send the Holy Spirit to lead the Church? Yes.

Did Jesus promise that the gates of Hell would NEVER prevail against His Church? Yes.

Therefore, can such a Church EVER teach error? No.

Does that Church still exist? Yes, and it is known by the ancient name which was first recorded by Ignatius of Antioch in 107 A.D. - the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church has not made herself the ultimate authority; Jesus conferred His own authority upon her, and He has not abrogated that authority one iota in 2,000 years.

 

[WindGirl]

Oh. In that case, are you infallible in your interpretation of scripture? I mean, you have the Holy Spirit guiding you and all… And neither you nor Windgirl ever stopped to answer my questions about how Baptists and Methodists can have completely different positions of infant baptism if both are led by the Spirit. Please…if you are led by the Spirit, can you tell us whether infant baptism is acceptable within the one Church of Christ and why it is that other believers who are also members of the one body of Christ disagree with your position?

This may help give you at least some idea:

gotquestions.org/interpretations-Christian.html

 

[WindGirl]

Interesting. So, the Church which Christ established is to be the support and the protection of the truth. (Bulwark does not mean “grounded in”.)

Now, did Jesus promise that He would build the Church? Yes.

Did Jesus promise that He would remain with that Church forever? Yes.

Did Jesus promise to send the Holy Spirit to lead the Church? Yes.

Did Jesus promise that the gates of Hell would NEVER prevail against His Church? Yes.

Therefore, can such a Church EVER teach error? No.

Does that Church still exist? Yes, and it is known by the ancient name which was first recorded by Ignatius of Antioch in 107 A.D. - the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church has not made herself the ultimate authority; Jesus conferred His own authority upon her.

Where does it say gates of hell not prevailing equals an infallilbe church? Where does it say that church means some separate entity apart from Christians for that is what it seems you insinuate? I can’t help but see you setting up what you deem to be the church as some kind of deity. No offense. Do you know that the church is people?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Catholics do believe that we should confess our venial sins and can do so directly to God and God will forgive us.

We are all members of Christ’s body the church.

When we mortally sin we do harm to Christ’s body the church. By confessing through the priest to God we are seeking to undo the harm to the church.

Jesus not only gave the disciples the power to forgive sin but to RETAIN sin.

Jesus did not give that authority to other christians.

I can’t RETAIN anyone else’s sin.

A Catholic priest can RETAIN a person’s sin if they are not truely repentent or do not have a firm purpose of amendment to sin no more.

We cannot do that.

It does not diminish Christ in anyway for Him to work grace through the sacraments just as it did not diminish God in anyway in Old Testament times to work grace through the Levitical priests.

Directly confessing our venial sins directly to God each day and confessing our mortal sins to Him through priests makes perfect sense.

And yes it is only God who knows the human heart–that is not diminshed if He works His grace through a priest or gives a priest the authority to RETAIN another’s sin–being able to RETAIN someone’s sin is good for an individual who does not see the error of his ways and it is good for the church whom he has harmed.

The exact moment that a person is truely repentent is when grace starts.

But grace is not an instanteous one time only event.

Grace continues through confession to a priest and when the priest gives absolution for sin it is God’s absolution given through that priest just as it would be Christ’s absolution given through the disciples who He had given the power to forgive or retain the confession of sins.

And even Catholics believe that if a person mortally sins and is PERFECTLY CONTRITE for such sins that they are forgiven right then and there–if they died at that moment they would die in a state of grace.

God lets us share in Christ’s suffering on the cross and Christ let the disciples share in His authority to not only FORGIVE but to RETAIN sin.

Let me ask anyone out there opposed to confession to a priest this question:

Why did Jesus give the power to RETAIN sins to the disciples?

Did He give you that authority?

If not then why not?