SPLIT: Confession to priest not necessary

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Randy_Carson said:
Confession and Forgiveness of Sin via the Priesthood Proved from Scripture

Some people object to the Sacrament of Reconciliation (commonly called “Confession”) on the basis that they only need to confess their sins directly to God rather than to a priest. Is this perspective correct? Let’s see what the Bible has to say.

Leviticus 5:5-6
5 " 'When anyone is guilty in any of these ways, he must confess in what way he has sinned 6 and, as a penalty for the sin he has committed, he must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.

Notice that the Word of God says, “the priest shall make atonement.” Clearly in the Old Testament, the priesthood existed to offer sacrifices and make atonement for the sins committed by the people. Does this idea continue in the New Testament?

Hebrews 10:1
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.

Here the author of Hebrews instructs us that the Old Testament prefigures and foreshadows New Testament truths; the Old is revealed more fully in the New. This seems to suggest that the role of the priest (ie, making atonement) as described in Leviticus should reveal something to us about the New Testament priesthood. So, what does the New Testament teach us about confession of sin?

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

We should confess our sins, and God will forgive us, but do we confess our sins to God alone? No!

James 5:13-16
13 Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

Here the word of God tells us to call the elders (the Greek word is presbuteroi, or “presbyter”, from which the English word “priest” is derived). So, in this context, James is telling us to send for the priests who will pray over someone who is sick, and if he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Recalling the passage from Leviticus above, we see there is a strong parallel between the priests of the Old Testament who made atonement for sin and the presbyters or priests of the New Testament to whom we confess sins for forgiveness. But this sounds like blasphemy! Can men really forgive sins? This same question is asked in the New Testament.

Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7"Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Who can forgive sins but God alone? This question is often asked by those who seek to deny the sacrament of confession. However, note that this question is asked by the scribes who did not accept Jesus. Those who quote this passage find themselves on the side of those who rejected the Messiah. There’s more to the story, however; let’s consider the same incident from the book of Matthew.

(cont.)
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Randy_Carson said:
Matthew 9:1-7
1 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!” 4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7And the man got up and went home. 8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

The Bible teaches that God had given the authority to forgive sins “to men”. Note that this is not “to a man” but “to men” – plural. So, it is not only Jesus who has authority to forgive sins – “men” have this authority, also. This sounds like a “hard teaching”…is there confirmation of this in the Bible?

John 20:21-23
21 Again Jesus said,"Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

How did God send Jesus into the world? With the authority to forgive sins as we saw in Matthew 9:6. How does Jesus send the Apostles? In the same way that the Father had sent Him…with the authority to forgive sins as we have just seen in John 20:23. How could the Apostles obey the commandment of Jesus to forgive sins unless they heard these sins confessed?

Finally, we find that the Apostle Paul himself forgave the sins of others acting in persona Christi or “in the person of Christ” – just as the Catholic Church teaches concerning the sacrament of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 2:10
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; (KJV)

And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ. (Douay Rheims)

Can we go directly to God for the forgiveness of our sins? Of course, but the scriptures just presented suggest that the normative means of forgiveness is by confession to a priest, and while it is true that only God can forgive sins, the Bible teaches that He has chosen to do so through the ordained priesthood and the Sacrament of Reconciliation that He Himself instituted.
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Just in case you missed it.😉
 
WindGirl said:
Everyone has an opinion. In the end, we’ll all find out who was right and who wasn’t and there might be some surprises. 🤷
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Yes always opinion in your case. I think it is better if we start discussions based on facts and rational thought.
 
WindGirl said:
These men you quote aren’t Scripture, are they? If what they say disagrees with the real ECF’s whom God used to pen His word, wouldn’t it stand to reason that they’re wrong?
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And who are the real ECFs?

If you are referring to persons in the early Church such as St Paul, St Peter, etc. then you will have to prove that quoted Church fathers contradict St Paul and St Peter.
 
WindGirl said:
Everyone has an opinion. In the end, we’ll all find out who was right and who wasn’t and there might be some surprises. 🤷
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Talk about Triumphalism.I agree with you,I think you’re going to be shocked but I pray that God recognizes your invincible ignoranceAnswer my question WindGirl.Are Catholics Christians?
 
Soutane said:
Talk about Triumphalism.I agree with you,I think you’re going to be shocked but I pray that God recognizes your invincible ignoranceAnswer my question WindGirl.Are Catholics Christians?
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Wonder how she’ll answer that. She probably thinks were members of the “whore of babylon” so were doomed!:eek: :eek: :eek:
 
WindGirl said:
There’s just no way Catholics will agree with any explanation that is not the Catholic one. That’s a given.

justforcatholics.org/a08.htm
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Yeah, I’m well familiar with Dr. Mizzi’s anti-Catholic site. You’re also right that I disagree with him, and here’s why.
Did Jesus give the apostles the power to remit sins? I trust that you would agree that, yes, a straightforward understanding of “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them” implies that Jesus gave the disciples power to forgive sin.
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Well duh…
That leads us to ask another question. He gave them power to forgive, but what KIND of power did he give them? Or to put it in another way, He told them to forgive, but did He also tell them HOW they should forgive?
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I think this is kind of specious on Mizzi’s part. No, there is nothing specific in the passage that informs that, however, there is implicit in it the answer to his question.
In John 20:23, Jesus told the disciples, "
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If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
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John Martignoni explains it very well on his site.
In James 5:16, God, through Sacred Scripture, commands us to “confess our sins to one another.” Notice, Scripture does not say confess your sins straight to God and only to God…it says confess your sins to one another.
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In Matthew, chapter 9, verse 6, Jesus tells us that He was given authority on earth to forgive sins. And then Scripture proceeds to tell us, in verse 8, that this authority was given to “men”…plural.
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  In John 20, verses 21-23, what is the 1st thing Jesus says to the gathered disciples on the night of His resurrection? "Jesus said to them, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.'" How did the Father send Jesus? Well, we just saw in Mt 9 that the Father sent Jesus with the authority on earth to forgive sins. Now, Jesus sends out His disciples as the Father has sent Him...so, what authority must Jesus be sending His disciples out with? The authority on earth to forgive sins. And, just in case they didn't get it, verses 22-23 say this, "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'"
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Why would Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive or to retain sins if He wasn’t expecting folks to confess their sins to them? And how could they forgive or retain sins if no one was confessing their sins to them?
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  The Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another. It also tells us that God gave men the authority on Earth to forgive sins. Jesus sends out His disciples with the authority on earth to forgive sins. When Catholics confess our sins to a priest, we are simply following the plan laid down by Jesus Christ. He forgives sins through the priest...it is God's power, but He exercises that power through the ministry of the priest.
        That answers Dr. Mizzi's next question as well I think.
I don’t think it is possible from this verse alone
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to answer that question. Yes, He gave them power to forgive, but in this context He does not state what kind of power He entrusted to them. We cannot simply assume that it is by absolution or by the preaching of the Gospel. The issue must be decided by referring to other portions of Scripture that deal with the same subject. Specifically we want to know how the apostles remitted sins.
Did the apostles hear confessions and prescribe penance? Did they assume the role of Judges and give judicial sentences in the Name of God (as the Catholic church teaches)?
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Yes as a matter of fact they did.

Look at Acts 5 and see it for yourself then let Dr, Mizzi debate the issue with St. Peter and Ananias and Saphira. 🤷
Or did they proclaim the Gospel and assure believers that their sins are forgiven (as Evangelicals teach)?
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This gets into why I wrote the blog article
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?
If you are familiar with the Acts of the Apostles, and the rest of the New Testament, you should have no problem to identify which interpretation is consistent with the rest of the Bible.
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My point exactly.
In conclusion I say that Jesus gave the disciples power to forgive. This we know from John 20:23. Whether He gave them DECLARATIVE or JUDICIAL power; and whether He made the apostles PREACHERS or JUDGES must be established from the study of the New Testament.
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Yeah, I agree, as I show in my other blog articles. Catholic Confession and Scriptures About Penance
 
ONE SIZE DON`T FIT ALL, &THAT GOES FOR RELIGION TOO.Catholics think they are right others think their right. If it works for You & You worship the one true God the Creator, Then I think its fine. I have met some awesome Prostestant folks. If You have made that conection with God, then its good!
 
Methodi said:
ONE SIZE DON`T FIT ALL, &THAT GOES FOR RELIGION TOO.Catholics think they are right others think their right. If it works for You & You worship the one true God the Creator, Then I think its fine. I have met some awesome Prostestant folks. If You have made that conection with God, then its good!
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It is true that it is good that Protestants worship Christ. That is indeed wonderful. And no one here doubts that Protestants are Christians too (at least I don’t think so).

But that is not the matter being discussed here. It all goes down to the why and how.

Did Christ leave us orphans with just a Love Letter (the Bible) or did He leave us a family (the Catholic Church) and the Love Letter was actually written within the experience of this family? Was His promise that every Tom Dirk and Harry will be given the Holy Spirit when they read the Bible or did He give that promise to His Church?

Your statement above glorifies the “I”.

“If it works for you”. Is Atheism and Agnosticism okay since it seems to work for a whole lot of people.?

You say as long as you worship the one True God. Doesn’t it matter how that One True God wanted to effect salvation? Should those who distort the meaning of the Bible not be set right in their thinking?

The whole problem with this attitude is that it makes Truth subjective. It makes Truth whatever you and I think it is. I think the devil would like us to think that. In the process Truth becomes obscured.

"If it works for you" is a dangerous statement. It is the height of self-centredness and can be used an as excuse for a multitude of sins.
 
benedictus2 said:
It is true that it is good that Protestants worship Christ. That is indeed wonderful. And no one here doubts that Protestants are Christians too (at least I don’t think so).

But that is not the matter being discussed here. It all goes down to the why and how.

Did Christ leave us orphans with just a Love Letter (the Bible) or did He leave us a family (the Catholic Church) and the Love Letter was actually written within the experience of this family? Was His promise that every Tom Dirk and Harry will be given the Holy Spirit when they read the Bible or did He give that promise to His Church?

Your statement above glorifies the “I”.

“If it works for you”. Is Atheism and Agnosticism okay since it seems to work for a whole lot of people.?

You say as long as you worship the one True God. Doesn’t it matter how that One True God wanted to effect salvation? Should those who distort the meaning of the Bible not be set right in their thinking?

The whole problem with this attitude is that it makes Truth subjective. It makes Truth whatever you and I think it is. I think the devil would like us to think that. In the process Truth becomes obscured.

"If it works for you" is a dangerous statement. It is the height of self-centredness and can be used an as excuse for a multitude of sins.
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To them, it is truth, same as to us ours is truth.we cant all be catholic.
 
Methodi said:
To them, it is truth, same as to us ours is truth.we cant all be catholic.
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But, two things can’t’ be true if they are contrary to each other. That is why relativism is silly. Besides, of course we can all be Catholic. Who is excluded? 😛
 
Methodi said:
To them, it is truth, same as to us ours is truth.we cant all be catholic.
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Truth is not subjective. If I were to opine that the earth goes around the moon, the only thing that will be true is that I am stupid.

When you espouse something contrary to a knowable Truth then you are espousing a lie.

But yes, everyone is free to delude themselves and believe the lies to be true.
 
RobertLGarrett said:
But, two things can’t’ be true if they are contrary to each other. That is why relativism is silly. Besides, of course we can all be Catholic. Who is excluded? 😛
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Excellent! The only ones not at the wedding banquet are those who rsvpd with a “No thanks”.
 
benedictus2 said:
Truth is not subjective. If I were to opine that the earth goes around the moon, the only thing that will be true is that I am stupid.

When you espouse something contrary to a knowable Truth then you are espousing a lie.

But yes, everyone is free to delude themselves and believe the lies to be true.
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A lot of what they believe is the truth, same as us catholics.We think we have the truth, they think they do, its as simple as that
 
Methodi said:
A lot of what they believe is the truth, same as us catholics.We think we have the truth, they think they do, its as simple as that
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The Truth is NOT relative.All that means is that there is no Truth.We KNOW there is Absolute Truth as the is the Way and the Life.I’ll go with He who is the Truth and the Church that he founded on Peter.The Catholic and the other lung, Orthodox Churches(presently in schism).
 
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