Split: Debate: Catholic Vs Non-Catholic Soteriology

[whosebob]

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But then what did Paul mean when he wrote to the Colossians?

Col. 2:13-14 “When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”

St. Paul gives us therein a beautiful expression of the Redemption of man wrought by God in Christ. Here is the commentary given in the Navarre Bible:

This is one of the central teachings of the Epistle – that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men. The basic purpose of his mediation is to reconcile men with God, through the forgiveness of their sins and the gift of the life of grace, which is a sharing in God’s own life. Verse 14 indicates how Christ achieved this purpose – by dying on the Cross. All who were under the yoke of sin and the Law have been set free through his death. The Mosaic Law, to which the Scribes and Pharisees added so many precepts as to make it unbearable, had become (to use St. Paul’s comparison) like a charge sheet against man, because it imposed heavy burdens but did not provide the grace needed for bearing them. The Apostle very graphically says that this charge sheet or “bond” was set aside and nailed on the Cross – making it perfectly clear to all the Christ made more than ample satisfaction for our crimes. “He has obliterated them,” St. John Chrysostom comments, “not simply crossed them out; he has obliterated them so effectively that no trace of them remains in our soul. He has completely cancelled them out, he has nailed them to the Cross …]. We were guilty and deserved the most rigorous of punishments because we were all of us in sin! What, then, does the Son of God do? By His death on the Cross he removes all our stains and exempts us from the punishment due to them. He takes our charge-sheet, nails it to the cross through His own person and destroys it.” (Hom. on Col., ad loc.) (The Navarre Bible, Captivity Epistles, pp. 175-176)

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[whosebob]

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Now it seems to me, in Biblical soteriology the cross of Christ is the determining factor, not one’s ability to continually avoid sin. So then am I to assume that you believe salvation is attained through one’s ability to always make correct “moral decisions?”

Certainly the Redemption cannot be understood apart the Cross. The graces that flow from Christ’s Sacrifice and Resurrection ARE WHAT make it possible to avoid sin. We never have to commit a mortal sin – we will always be given the grace to freely choose what is pleasing to God, though correspondence with such grace will require more or less effort and self-denial on our part (i.e. the exercise of free will), depending on the extent of the temptation and the particular weaknesses we have which vary from person to person. Again, what’s key is to understood that the freedom of the children of God is not license to commit sin without fear of punishment; rather it’s freedom in grace to choose, with a conscience enlightened with the teaching of Christ and a will strengthened with His gifts and virtues, to live in imitation of Jesus Christ as to the fulfillment of the greatest commandment, that the Holy Spirit might bear fruit in us and through us:

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.” (Matt. 22:36-40 [RSV])

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another. Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if any one thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. For each man will have to bear his own load. Let him who is taught the word share all good things with him who teaches. Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith. (Gal. 5:22-6:10 [RSV])

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[whosebob]

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“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’” “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matt. 7:21-23;25:31-46 [RSV])

For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. (Rom. 2:6-8 [RSV])

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood. (Rev. 22:12-15 [RSV])

For a more extensive Scriptural defense of the Catholic teaching on salvation, visit ScriptureCatholic.com

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[whosebob]

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I would also challenge you to learn more about the Catholic understanding of Redemption. You give hints that you embrace a strict “substitutionary punishment” view of the Passion of Christ, which frankly doesn’t lead to a full appreciation of the Salvation made possible in Christ, and can lead to a terrible misunderstanding of how suffering in our life is to be understood and offered back to God. To learn more, I would start with the following: Redemption, Salvation, Reparation, Atonement, Sacrifice, A Biblical Theology of Redemption in a Covenant Framework.

Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (Jn. 14:6). When He says, “I am the way,” I don’t believe He was referring to Himself as being our example of making “moral decisions” for salvation. But instead to the cross by which He accomplished full redemption for all who believe (cf. Jn. 3:14-18).

I agree fully with your statement: the Catholic Church rejects a view of the atonement which understands Christ to have provided only a moral example, albeit a perfect one, which we are to follow unto our salvation. No, Christ has redeemed man by His Life, Passion, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension: having made infinite satisfaction by his perfect obedience unto death for all of the offenses and disobedience against God’s honor and justice which have been made since the original sin of Adam unto today, and will be made unto the close of history; having released man from his bondage under the Devil; having conquered death by his swallowing it up in His resurrection; having made it possible for man to suffer and die on this Earth in a new way, that is in a manner pleasing to God, being united to Him in His Mystical Body by grace in faith, hope, and love; having taught, encouraged, and given witness by His example, of how to live in perfect relationship to God and other men; having revealed to us the truth about the inner life of God – a Trinity of Divine Persons in the Unity of the One Godhead – and having imparted to us the means to share in that life by instituting the Sacraments and sending upon the Church the Gift of the Holy Spirit, wherefore we have the grace to live as He taught, that we might live in Him and He in us; and by having instituted and commissioned His Church which led by the Apostles and their successors did, does, and will proclaim this Truth until Jesus Christ comes again.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[whosebob]

Hi Michael; that is a beautiful website that you’ve put together!In the CC you are saved initially by grace through faith; subsequently, that salvation is passed off to you and you are ultimately saved by your works

JMJ + OBT​

Thanks for the compliment. But you’ve misunderstood the Catholic teaching: all Christians have a vocation to holiness, which in every respect is not possible without grace. We are initially saved by grace, we continue to be saved by grace and by such grace are made able to live in a manner truly pleasing to God, and we hope to die in God’s friendship – in His grace – and attain to the Beatific Vision. If we fail in our vocation between our inital justification and the end of our life, it will only have been by the exercise of our free will in an act of disobedience (which might be a commission or ommission in thought, word, or deed); God will always give us the grace to be restored to Him in Christ, but we will also always have the choice to reject such grace out of pride or to accept it in humility. So salvation in Christ is all grace!

Please consider my multi-post response to apophasis as a response to the points you just raised regarding the decree of Trent and the quote from the Catechism. I can provide more info too, if you’d like.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[sapamarogi]

The reason I did not read the Bible was the Catholic Church did not encourage us to do so. I went to Catechism and heard the Catholic way but in reading the Bible for myself I found the true way. I remember being in Midnight Mass one night and seeing them bringing the crucifix around and people kissing it(more rituals), God began to speak to my heart about how do I bring close what Jesus dying on the cross for me meant. How does that affect me. Now, I know. He took the sin of the world on HIM and became sin and died my death and everyone else’s death. For those who receive Him and HIS Sacrifice (already done, no need of anymore sacrifices - or crucifix since he’s not on the cross anymore but triumphant in heaven) they become born again - a new nature - the nature of God (Jesus comes in) inside. Jesus even said to Nicodemus - unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. We were born from Adam and have a sin nature, but when we receive Jesus into our hearts - God’s nature comes in and we are truly born again. As many as received HIM to them He gave the power to become sons of God. It comes down to reading the Word of God - then you know the truth. I talked to the priest from my church after I was born again to see what the church believed and he didn’t even believe the Word of God and undermined it. God showed me to move out of the Catholic church and I did and He lead me to a Baptist church to get into the Word of God at that time. The only truth is in the Word of God and someone does not preach what is in the Word then we cannot accept. God has given us HIS Truth. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Him. Jesus is the Living Word, the Bible is the Written Word and anyone who take away from it or adds to it is not of God - read the last chapter of Revelation.

 

[sandusky]

…you’ve misunderstood the Catholic teaching…

I understand it better than you know; as I stated, and you concurred, you are saved initially by grace through faith; subsequently, that salvation is passed off to you and you are ultimately saved by your works.

You, the Council of Trent and other Catholic theologians, are quick and continuous in pointing out that all of this is a result of grace; IMO, what you are doing under the semblance of grace, is smuggling works/ritual law into the Gospel (in the form of sacraments and other works).

The bottom line, Michael, is that if you can lose your initial, and all subsequent justification/salvation, it can only be because it is based upon your performance/works, grace or no grace.

The Gospel and ritual works are not compatible; Paul says in Gal 4:30-31-5:4:But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.” So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman…You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.Sacraments are a new law; IMO, you have a non-understanding of both the necessity and sufficiency of God’s grace through God’s faith in justification, and the insufficiency of your works to justify/save; again, in your system, after the loss of initial justification/salvation, all subsequent justification/salvation re-obtained by you ultimately rests in your hands, and so, it is finally based upon your performance, grace or no grace.

That is certainly a works-based system of justification relying upon a synergistic cooperation between God, and man, namely, work well, and you obtain salvation; screw up, and you lose salvation and are condemned (cf Rom 5:1; 8:1).

Sans the synergism, that is Old Covenant theology, a covenant which could not save, as pointed out by Paul in Romans and Galatians, and so, it was abolished at the cross.

Christ abolished legal ritual because it was never intended as a means of salvation; why do you desire to hang onto it?

 

[apophasis]

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I would also challenge you to learn more about the Catholic understanding of Redemption. You give hints that you embrace a strict “substitutionary punishment” view of the Passion of Christ, which frankly doesn’t lead to a full appreciation of the Salvation made possible in Christ, and can lead to a terrible misunderstanding of how suffering in our life is to be understood and offered back to God.

Thank for the lengthy response. But in all that you wrote this is the line of demarcation between Catholic and “Protestant” soteriology. We understand the Scriptures to teach the death of Christ to be wholly substitutionary (2 Cor. 5:21). Prefigured by the various sacrifices prescribed under the Law of Moses, especially the “Day of Atonement.” And, frankly, no one can fully understand salvation by GRACE through faith until he/she accepts this fundamental truth revealed in God’s written Word. To deny the wholly substitutionary aspect of the cross is to, frankly, deny the cross itself.

There’s a vast difference between the “crucifixion” and the “cross.” The crucifixion of Christ being the most heinous crime ever committed by mankind. “The Cross,” however, being the greatest work of God on behalf of mankind. But apart from its substitutionary value it would be rendered worthless, if not totally senseless. And for this reason you fail to understand Col. 2:13-14. The passage I asked you to comment on, but avoided.

So, in staying germane to this thread, when a Catholic, through the work of the Holy Spirit, finally does come to understand what God accomplished for him through Christ’s* substitutionary sin-sacrifice*, he usually finds that he just cannot return to a church that does not understand or teach this glorious, Biblical truth. His desire then is to fellowship with those who do. Most often Protestants don’t tell a Catholic he must not attend a Catholic church, but the newly-enlightened Catholic simply seeks fellowship with those who are like minded regarding Christ’s substitutionary death, with whom they rejoice in what God has done.

May you grow in the GRACE and knowledge of the cross of Christ. It’s the cross that makes Christ Savior.

 

[Mickey]

The reason I did not read the Bible was the Catholic Church did not encourage us to do so.

The prejudiced view toward Catholicism that you have set forth has been refuted many times on this forum. It does not benefit you to preach your reformed view. If you care to learn what the Catholic Church truly teaches and believes, then ask your questions one at a time or do a search of this forum. Otherwise, you may find a more sympathetic ear on one of the baptist forums.

Peace and blessings,
Mickey

 

[sara888]

Thank for the lengthy response. But in all that you wrote this is the line of demarcation between Catholic and “Protestant” soteriology. We understand the Scriptures to teach the death of Christ to be wholly substitutionary (2 Cor. 5:21). Prefigured by the various sacrifices prescribed under the Law of Moses, especially the “Day of Atonement.” And, frankly, no one can fully understand salvation by GRACE through faith until he/she accepts this fundamental truth revealed in God’s written Word. To deny the wholly substitutionary aspect of the cross is to, frankly, deny the cross itself.

There’s a vast difference between the “crucifixion” and the “cross.” The crucifixion of Christ being the most heinous crime ever committed by mankind. “The Cross,” however, being the greatest work of God on behalf of mankind. But apart from its substitutionary value it would be rendered worthless, if not totally senseless. And for this reason you fail to understand Col. 2:13-14. The passage I asked you to comment on, but avoided.

So, in staying germane to this thread, when a Catholic, through the work of the Holy Spirit, finally does come to understand what God accomplished for him through Christ’s* substitutionary sin-sacrifice*, he usually finds that he just cannot return to a church that does not understand or teach this glorious, Biblical truth. His desire then is to fellowship with those who do. Most often Protestants don’t tell a Catholic he must not attend a Catholic church, but the newly-enlightened Catholic simply seeks fellowship with those who are like minded regarding Christ’s substitutionary death, with whom they rejoice in what God has done.

May you grow in the GRACE and knowledge of the cross of Christ. It’s the cross that makes Christ Savior.

**Apop., Catholics Do understand what Christ has done for us on the cross, what you are not comprehending is what we as Christians must DO for Christ…

A true christian with faith follows what Christ commands one to do. If commandments are essential to a Christians Faith then they are part of our requirements for Faith and since one is being judged on Faith and commandments are essential to this so called faith then Christ will judge one on his actions to his so called belief or faith…

Commandments are essential to Faith , as one cannot claim they have Faith without commandment keeping , so as Christians we are all being judged by our Faith which includes works.

You continually misrepresent Catholic Doctrine, you also do not profess true Faith in Christ as you keep preaching lawlessness .

Christ job was finished on the cross, however our job as a servant is not…

AngelJan**

 

[mercygate]

The reason I did not read the Bible was the Catholic Church did not encourage us to do so. I went to Catechism and heard the Catholic way but in reading the Bible for myself I found the true way.** I remember being in Midnight Mass one night and seeing them bringing the crucifix around** and people kissing it(more rituals), God began to speak to my heart about how do I bring close what Jesus dying on the cross for me meant.

Poppycock and double poppycock!

If the Catholic Church did not encourage you to read the Bible, which I question since reading Scripture is associated with special graces in the Church, I suppose it IS conceivable. But frankly, if your reading of Scripture led you to these ridiculous and degraded conclusions about Catholicism, then perhaps you might have consulted Catholic sources to address the matters that confused you.

If you “went to Catechism,” you certainly weren’t paying attention because you certainly did NOT learn “the Catholic way” or you would not present such a caricature of it.

No way did you EVER attend any midnight Mass at where people venerated the Cross or Crucifix. If you knew “the Catholic way” you would know that the veneration of the wood of the Cross takes place only on one day a year – a day when Mass is never celebrated – Good Friday.

 

[Mickey]

You continually misrepresent Catholic Doctrine

Thank you Angeljan,

You are truly a living example of Christian love and charity. May the peace and love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with you and your family always.

Blessings to you,
Mickey

 

[maurin]

:whacky: :whacky: foolishness!!!

The reason I did not read the Bible was the Catholic Church did not encourage us to do so. I went to Catechism and heard the Catholic way but in reading the Bible for myself I found the true way. I remember being in Midnight Mass one night and seeing them bringing the crucifix around and people kissing it(more rituals), God began to speak to my heart about how do I bring close what Jesus dying on the cross for me meant. How does that affect me. Now, I know. He took the sin of the world on HIM and became sin and died my death and everyone else’s death.

Your false recollections have already been addressed.

For those who receive Him and HIS Sacrifice (already done, no need of anymore sacrifices - or crucifix since he’s not on the cross anymore but triumphant in heaven) they become born again - a new nature - the nature of God (Jesus comes in) inside. Jesus even said to Nicodemus - unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. We were born from Adam and have a sin nature, but when we receive Jesus into our hearts - God’s nature comes in and we are truly born again. As many as received HIM to them He gave the power to become sons of God.

He also said that anyone who wishes to follow Him must pick up their own cross. Passion precedes Crucifixion which precedes Resurrection. What do you think Paul means by taking off the old man and putting on Christ? Although He could have, Jesus did not sprinkle any of us with ‘magic dust.’ Paul tells us to ‘work out our Salvation with fear and trembling.’

It is a relief to see that Baptism has retained its Sacramental Nature in your belief.

It comes down to reading the Word of God - then you know the truth. I talked to the priest from my church after I was born again to see what the church believed and he didn’t even believe the Word of God and undermined it.

Reading the Written Word of God divorced from the Apostolic Tradition and Understanding, which precedes the Written Word, is analogous to talking to the comatose. This habit is a tradition of very fallible men dating to the 16th century, and has led to tens of thousands of other traditions of fallible men. It has even lead to a resurgence of not only modalism, but arianism.

God showed me to move out of the Catholic church and I did and He lead me to a Baptist church to get into the Word of God at that time. The only truth is in the Word of God and someone does not preach what is in the Word then we cannot accept. God has given us HIS Truth. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Him. Jesus is the Living Word, the Bible is the Written Word and anyone who take away from it or adds to it is not of God - read the last chapter of Revelation.

Paul does teach the discernment of spirits. The Spirit of Truth would never have led you outside of the Truth. I believe this is one of the criteria of determining ‘false spirit.’

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I understand it better than you know; quote]

If you were capable of understanding, you wouldn’t have left.

Now you left, trying in vain, to jusify leaving Christ’s Church to follow a religion of your own creed

 

[apophasis]

sara888:

Apop., Catholics Do understand what Christ has done for us on the cross,

Actually, Catholics, in unbelief, are still dealing with sins, sacramentally, that God dealt with, once and for all, 2000 years ago. What RC’ism does not accept is the divinely, revealed truth that God had His Judgment Day on sin at the cross of Christ when our sins were imputed to Christ and He died in our stead (Jn. 1:29; 3:14-18). Since then the message to “believe” what He has done has gone out into the world.

what you are not comprehending is what we as Christians must DO for Christ…

What you refuse to comprehend, in respect to obtaining salvation and eternal life, is that there is nothing a Christian can do “for Christ.” For salvation one must believe what Christ has already done, completely and perfectly, for you. That’s what it means to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

According to the Scriptures redemption is not a cooperative effort, as RC’ism teaches (2 Cor. 5:21), and salvation and eternal life are free gifts (Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9), as is divine justification (Rom. 3:23-24). The only requirement for men to be saved is to believe the message concerning Christ - the message of the cross.John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

A true christian with faith follows what Christ commands one to do.

True. But a “true Christian” is already saved by grace through faith and regenerated by the Holy Spirit. As demonstrated by Paul’s instruction to the believer based on his new life in Christ: “…for you were formally darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light…trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord” (Eph. 5:8-10).

If commandments are essential to a Christians Faith then they are part of our requirements for Faith and since one is being judged on Faith and commandments are essential to this so called faith then Christ will judge one on his actions to his so called belief or faith.

I’m sure this all sounds quite rational in your own mind, but none of it conforms to divine revelation concerning salvation. Men are not “being judged on faith,” but a true believer “does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life” (Jn. 5:24). “Commandment keeping” is not essential for salvation. Faith, however, is. “What must I do to be saved,” asked the anxious jailer. “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved,” replied Paul and his companions (Acts 16:30-31). No mention of obedience to commandments, only faith in the One who was delivered up for him.

You always put the cart before the horse, Jan. It’s the saved who are “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works,” not the other way around. But this error is not uncommon for those who refuse to accept the full substitutionary aspect of the cross of Christ. If you don’t get the cross right you’ll be off in everything else in your soteriology (as you demonstrate by the content of your posts). Compare it to building a house, start out with a poor foundation and you’ll struggle with everything you try to build upon it.

Good works don’t save, Jan. Those saved by grace through faith, however, are “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:8-10). And the saved are continually urged in Scripture to walk according to their holy calling (Rom. 12:1-2). Put the horse in front of the cart, Jan, and you’ll start moving - even growing in grace.

 

[mercygate]

Lot’s on my plate and cannot take time to give a detailed response to the odd impressions you have about Sacramental Confession, but just a Scriptural note regarding thhis:

apophasis:

.What you refuse to comprehend, in respect to obtaining salvation and eternal life, is that there is nothing a Christian can do "for Christ." For salvation one must believe what Christ has already done, completely and perfectly, for you. That’s what it means to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I refer you to Matthew 25:40-46, particularly:

Truly, I say to you, **as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' ** Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'

 

[sandusky]

Hi Sandusky,

Hello, Jan.

If Protestants and Catholics believe commandments or works are essential to Faith, since one cannot have faith without commandment keeping.,how is it that you claim works have nothing to do with a Christians salvation.???

Jan, you act as though I have come with some novel idea regarding salvation; it is not I who claim that works have nothing to with salvation, but Paul:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:4-5But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us,
not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Notice Jan, that God does not save on the basis of works done in righteousness, but on the basis of His grace, His kindness, and His mercy; that is because all of our righteousness is filthy (Is 64:6; 46:12; 48:1), when it is derived from commandment keeping; the only righteousness that is satisfactory to the Father is the righteousness of Christ that is imputed on the basis of faith (Php 3:8-9).

Works are necessary for growth in holiness, and for a healthy Christian life; however, as the above scriptures state, works/deeds are not the basis of salvation/justification, but faith.

If you stop interposing the church between you and God, you might see that.

If works are essential to ones Faith, and we are being judged on Faith which includes works, how can you seperate them or claim they have nothing to do with our judgment or Salvation…???

The only judgment pertaining to faith is whether or not one has believed correctly, that is, in the manner that God has set forth, namely faith alone (Jn 3:18).

Everyone’s works will be judged (Ps 62:12; Prov 24:12; Rom 2:6; 14:12; 1 Cor 3:13; 2 Cor 5:10; Eph 6:8; Col 3:25; Rev 2:23; 20:12; 22:12), but the believer is not judged with respect to whether or not his works have earned eternal life because he was given that as a gift when he first believed (Jn 5:24); the believers works determine the degree of his reward/crowns.

The unbeliever is already judged (Jn 3:18), so the extent of his works determine the degree of his punishment.

 

[mercygate]

Hi Sandusky,

Hello, Jan.

Jan, you act as though I have come with some novel idea regarding salvation; it is not I who claim that works have nothing to with salvation, but Paul:
Notice Jan, that God does not save on the basis of works done in righteousness, but on the basis of His grace, His kindness, and His mercy; that is because all of our righteousness is filthy (Is 64:6; 46:12; 48:1), when it is derived from commandment keeping; the only righteousness that is satisfactory to the Father is the righteousness of Christ that is imputed on the basis of faith (Php 3:8-9).

Works are necessary for growth in holiness, and for a healthy Christian life; however, as the above scriptures state, works/deeds are not the basis of salvation/justification, but faith.

If you stop interposing the church between you and God, you might see that.

The only judgment pertaining to faith is whether or not one has believed correctly, that is, in the manner that God has set forth, namely faith alone (Jn 3:18).

Everyone’s works will be judged (Ps 62:12; Prov 24:12; Rom 2:6; 14:12; 1 Cor 3:13; 2 Cor 5:10; Eph 6:8; Col 3:25; Rev 2:23; 20:12; 22:12), but the believer is not judged with respect to whether or not his works have earned eternal life because he was given that as a gift when he first believed (Jn 5:24); the believers works determine the degree of his reward/crowns.

The unbeliever is already judged (Jn 3:18), so the extent of his works determine the degree of his punishment.

You are failing to note the important distinction here between works of the law and works under grace. Even when I was a Protestant, I knew that the quotes you cite from Ephesians and Timothy referred to “works of righteousness” done prior to hearing the Gospel. It is Paul’s consistent preaching: Works done under the law do not save you but only the blood of Christ (paraphrasing). This is a different thing altogether (and not in conflict) with the importance of “working out our salvation in fear and trembling” by feeding the poor, clothing the naked, giving a cup of water in the Lord’s name. Protestants agree with that.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Hi Sandusky,

Hello, Jan.

Jan, you act as though I have come with some novel idea regarding salvation; it is not I who claim that works have nothing to with salvation, but Paul:
Notice Jan, that God does not save on the basis of works done in righteousness, but on the basis of His grace, His kindness, and His mercy; that is because all of our righteousness is filthy (Is 64:6; 46:12; 48:1), when it is derived from commandment keeping; the only righteousness that is satisfactory to the Father is the righteousness of Christ that is imputed on the basis of faith (Php 3:8-9).

Works are necessary for growth in holiness, and for a healthy Christian life; however, as the above scriptures state, works/deeds are not the basis of salvation/justification, but faith.

If you stop interposing the church between you and God, you might see that.

The only judgment pertaining to faith is whether or not one has believed correctly, that is, in the manner that God has set forth, namely faith alone (Jn 3:18).

Everyone’s works will be judged (Ps 62:12; Prov 24:12; Rom 2:6; 14:12; 1 Cor 3:13; 2 Cor 5:10; Eph 6:8; Col 3:25; Rev 2:23; 20:12; 22:12), but the believer is not judged with respect to whether or not his works have earned eternal life because he was given that as a gift when he first believed (Jn 5:24); the believers works determine the degree of his reward/crowns.

The unbeliever is already judged (Jn 3:18), so the extent of his works determine the degree of his punishment.

So are you saying that faith is the only thing required for salvation according to scripture. That is a yes or no question.

 

[sandusky]

So are you saying that faith is the only thing required for salvation according to scripture. That is a yes or no question.

Yes.