Split: Debate: Catholic Vs Non-Catholic Soteriology

[Sean_Boyle]

Yes.

Thanks for the simple reply.

Do we need love in order to be saved?

 

[whosebob]

Hi Sandusky,
Jan, you act as though I have come with some novel idea regarding salvation; it is not I who claim that works have nothing to with salvation, but Paul:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:4-5But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Works are necessary for growth in holiness, and for a healthy Christian life; however, as the above scriptures state, works/deeds are not the basis of salvation/justification, but faith.

May Our Lord bless you, sandusky, and may the Blessed Virgin by her prayers obtain for you the graces to draw ever closer to the merciful Heart of Jesus.

St. Paul does not teach that it is impossible for our works to contribute to our justification and sanctification, for that would be contrary to the fullness of Divine Revelation, e.g. as St. James teaches:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:21-24 [RSV])

The key to understanding St. Paul is in Chapter 4 of his letter to the Romans:

Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. (Romans 4:4-5 [RSV])

There is nothing a creature can do which can place God the Creator in its debt; everything that God gives us He gives to us freely, as He wills. It is an attitude or assertion to the contrary that St. Paul is so concerned with – apparently quite rampant among the Jews of that era, and many other peoples throughout history – and that is the error which the Apostle so forcefully dispels in Romans and his other letters. We can never imagine that God owes us because we did something or refrained from doing something. But once we are adopted as “sons in the Son,” having been made inwardly just by the power of His mercy, we can live in a new way, in a manner truly pleasing to God, wherein our actions, words, and prayers made in faith, hope, and love truly contribute to the work of justification-sanctification-salvation. You may have seen it in my post in another thread but here is the Church’s teaching on merit, from the Catechism:

(continued below)

 

[whosebob]

(continued from above)

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining “the promised inheritance of eternal life.”(60) The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.(61) “Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts.”(62)

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.(63)

60 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546.
61 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.
62 St. Augustine, Sermo 298,4-5L 38,1367.
63 St. Thérèse of Lisieux, “Act of Offering” in Story of a Soul, tr. John Clarke (Washington DC: ICS, 1981), 277.

If you stop interposing the church between you and God, you might see that. The only judgment pertaining to faith is whether or not one has believed correctly, that is, in the manner that God has set forth, namely faith alone (Jn 3:18). Everyone’s works will be judged (Ps 62:12; Prov 24:12; Rom 2:6; 14:12; 1 Cor 3:13; 2 Cor 5:10; Eph 6:8; Col 3:25; Rev 2:23; 20:12; 22:12), but the believer is not judged with respect to whether or not his works have earned eternal life because he was given that as a gift when he first believed (Jn 5:24); the believers works determine the degree of his reward/crowns. The unbeliever is already judged (Jn 3:18), so the extent of his works determine the degree of his punishment.

It is the Church, “the pillar and bulwark of truth,” (cf 1 Tim. 3:15) which teaches us to rightly understand God’s Revelation. You’re not “playing with a full deck” – you need the full Deposit of Faith – Apostolic Tradition + Sacred Scripture – and the guidance of the teaching authority of the Church, the Magisterium, in order to know and understand fully what God has revealed to us in His Son. Otherwise you’re just not going to get it right, though you may get pretty close, by God’s grace and the movement of the Holy Spirit within you.

(continued below)

 

[whosebob]

(continued from above)

The idea that “the only judgment pertaining to faith is whether or not one has believed correctly” (by which I think you meant to say the “only judgment pertaining to salvation”) coupled to the idea that works only determine the degree of rewards/crowns for the elect and the degree of punishment for the damned is one of the worst heresies of all time for it completely undermines the Gospel and the truth that the fundamental vocation of man – the essential Christian vocation – is the vocation to holiness. I pray for all the souls who have been brought to the brink of Hell or lost forever due to the false assurance that this heresy imparted to them.

“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’” (Matt. 7:21-23 [RSV])

We can always trust in God’s mercy in Christ. He will always give us grace to do His Father’s will, and He will always give us the grace to repent should we fail. But we can separate ourselves from the life of grace through serious personal sin, and we can always refuse God’s grace out of pride.

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling. But he who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us. If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also. Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 1:5-20;2:2-11;3:23-24;4:20-21;5:1-3 [RSV]) [emphasis mine]

(continued below)

 

[whosebob]

What shall happen if we fail in love? St. Paul gives us some examples of ways to fail in love of God and neighbor, and he tells us the consequences quite plainly:

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9-10 [RSV])

Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal. 5:19-21 [RSV])

Let us not deceive ourselves. If we fail in love, let us humble ourselves and ask God for the graces of repentance so as to be restored to him, lest our lives end apart from the friendship of God and we perish in Hell. Let us take heed of St. Paul’s instruction and do like him:

Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. (1 Cor. 9:24-27 [RSV])

We know that St. Paul is not concerned that he could be disqualified with regards to a wreath or crown that is only a secondary reward for good works, separate from the crown of eternal salvation, for he goes on to teach us immediately:

I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless with most of them God was not pleased; for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things are warnings for us, not to desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to dance.” We must not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put the Lord to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents; nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols. I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say.(1 Cor 10:1-15 [RSV])

Let’s take St. Paul seriously, as sensible men, and remember too that Our Lord taught us:

He who endures to the end will be saved. (cf. Matthew 10:22 [RSV])

With Christ’s grace IT IS POSSIBLE to live a life of faith, hope, and love! But He will never take away our freedom to choose eternal life or eternal damnation.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[InLight247]

Thanks for the simple reply.

Do we need love in order to be saved?

James 2:14-18

 

[sandusky]

Thanks for the simple reply.

Do we need love in order to be saved?

Love is an “effect” of faith, Sean; it is not a “cause” of faith (1 Jn 4:19).

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Love is an “effect” of faith, Sean; it is not a “cause” of faith (1 Jn 4:19).

Thank you for your patience. Would you be able to also answer that question adequtely with a yes or no? “Is love required for salvation?”

In the same vein, do you need to love God, love his son, love our neighbors or even love your enemy to be saved?

 

[sandusky]

Thank you for your patience. Would you be able to also answer that question adequtely with a yes or no? “Is love required for salvation?”

No.
Sean Boyle:

In the same vein, do you need to love God, love his son, love our neighbors or even love your enemy to be saved?

No.

You cannot love God, or Christ, and you cannot love your neighbor, and your enemy with Christ’s love, until you are saved (1 Jn 4:19).

 

[corvidae]

But in the same vein, you cannot do good works until you have faith.

It is like blades on a scissors, without either one, the scissors don’t work as well, and without either one, it is not really scissors.

A lone Raven
p.s.- What was the answer to the rich young man, on what he must do to gain eternal life.
If I remember right the answer was follow the commandments.
and When asked what the most important commandments were
Love the Lord your God with your whole heart, mind, soul, and strength
and Love your neighbor as yourself

Hmm, if Jesus commands us to love, how can you do otherwise

 

[Sean_Boyle]

No.No.

You cannot love God, or Christ, and you cannot love your neighbor, and your enemy with Christ’s love, until you are saved (1 Jn 4:19).

Again thanks for going though this slowly for me. Why then does Paul teach that love is greater than faith?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Again thanks for going though this slowly for me. Why then does Paul teach that love is greater than faith?

Just saw this 1Jn 4:19 “we love because he first loved us” How does that add to your answer? Are you saying “faith” is really love???

 

[Sean_Boyle]

James 2:14-18

Also sandusky this seems pretty clear to me. How can being saved by faith still be justified in light of this passage?

 

[sandusky]

Sean Boyle:

Just saw this 1Jn 4:19 “we love because he first loved us” How does that add to your answer? Are you saying “faith” is really love???

No, faith is not love; what I am saying is that one may have a worldly love without faith in God; but one cannot have a Godly love without faith in God; again, Christ-like love is the effect of true faith; it is not the cause of true faith. Putting love before faith puts the cart before the horse, if you will.
Sean Boyle:

Again thanks for going though this slowly for me. Why then does Paul teach that love is greater than faith?

Because love is eternal; faith and hope are temporary.

Faith and hope are only necessary while the believer is in his body; once he dies, and leaves his body, and is taken to be in the presence of God, he no longer needs faith and hope, as they will have been realized.

Love is greater because love is eternal.

 

[maurin]

You cannot love God, or Christ, and you cannot love your neighbor, and your enemy with Christ’s love, until you are saved (1 Jn 4:19).

This statement renders meaningless Paul’s admonishment to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

 

[whosebob]

Sean Boyle:

Thank you for your patience … “Is love required for salvation?”

No.

[D]
o you need to love God, love his son, love our neighbors or even love your enemy to be saved?

No. You cannot love God, or Christ, and you cannot love your neighbor, and your enemy with Christ’s love, until you are saved

JMJ + OBT​

May Our Lord bless you, sandusky, and draw you to Himself; may Our Lady’s prayers obtain for you graces of understanding and wisdom in Christ. Please pray for me.

St. Paul teaches us:

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Cor. 13:1-3,13 [RSV])

So it seems that it is possible to have supernatural faith – the kind that Christ Himself spoke of in Matt. 17:20 – and to lack love or to fail in love. Even with such great faith, if man has not love he is nothing. A man could not be nothing and at the same time possess the dignity of a justified Christian. From the Catechism:

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us. [emphasis mine]

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life(40):

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.(41)

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.(42)

40 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529.
41 Rom 3:21-26.
42 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1525.

So when we respond to God’s grace in faith (which response itself is a movement in cooperation with grace) and are justified, supernatural faith, hope, and love are poured into our hearts to complement the corresponding human virtues. So you are right to say that we cannot love God or our neighbor with and in the love and grace of Christ until we have received those very gifts. But once we have received them, we must practice those virtues through the exercise of our free will. And that is precisely in what context the teaching of St. James and St. John (that is, regarding works and love) complement the teaching of St. Paul that we can never put God in our debt. Once he as adopted us in Christ as his sons and daughters, we must freely choose to work out our salvation in fear and trembling (cf. Col. 2:12), with lives characterized by acts of faith, hope, and love, for as St. Paul teaches, “in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.” (Gal. 5:6 [RSV]) If we fail greviously in that regard, we will have become separated from God, but He will always provide the graces we need to repent and start again, though we remain free to reject or accept those graces too.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[whosebob]

JMJ + OBT​

I wanted to add that nowhere in Sacred Scripture are we taught that acts of love, of God and/or neighbor, will necessarily flow from supernatural faith. Such acts remain an exercise of free will in and by God’s grace, though our wills ought certainly to be excited towards love by our supernatural faith and hope.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[sandusky]

mercygate:

You are failing to note the important distinction here between works of the law and works under grace. Even when I was a Protestant, I knew that the quotes you cite from Ephesians and Timothy referred to “works of righteousness” done prior to hearing the Gospel. It is Paul’s consistent preaching: Works done under the law do not save you but only the blood of Christ (paraphrasing).

It is not that I fail to note a distinction; it is that I do not believe that there is a distinction.

Neither works done under the law, nor works done under grace are the cause of justification; as Paul says:

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Clothing works in grace does not change Paul’s statement which I believe to be an either/or statement—it is either works, or it is grace.

mercygate:

This is a different thing altogether (and not in conflict) with the importance of “working out our salvation in fear and trembling” by feeding the poor, clothing the naked, giving a cup of water in the Lord’s name. Protestants agree with that.

Even unbelievers feed the poor, clothe the naked, and give cups of water, and some do it in the name of the Lord.

“Working out” is in the sense of bringing it to completion; enduring to the end, as Christ says—that is sanctification, which is a work of the H.S. as indicated in the very next verse.

I have no problem with “working out,” and “enduring to the end,” as they are signs of true faith; but neither of those terms has anything to do with “earning,” or “meriting.” Salvation is a “gift” given from God’s compassion, and pity, and love, and mercy toward me. I cannot earn those gifts, but as a beggar taking food offered, I can only receive God’s gifts in the belief that God means what He says when He gives them to me; namely, that they are free and without cost
(Is 55:1ff).

 

[sandusky]

Sean Boyle:

Also sandusky this seems pretty clear to me [from Jas 2:14-18]. How can being saved by faith still be justified in light of this passage?

Here is what maurin, a Catholic, said to me in an earlier post concerning salvation by grace:

…We are saved by Grace. Period. Grace that allows us to have Faith, and Grace that allows us to give evidence of our faith by the works that we do.

Have you not read James 2:14-26, especially verse 26?

I agree with maurin, though I think his/her thoughts on that will be changing shortly.

James is not about faith saving you; if it is, then he and Paul are contradicting one another; James is concerned with what saving faith “looks like,” so that we can identify both saving faith, and non-saving.

Here is a more in-depth explanation I posted elsewhere, post #4.

 

[whosebob]

Salvation is a “gift” given from God’s compassion, and pity, and love, and mercy toward me. I cannot earn those gifts, but as a beggar taking food offered, I can only receive God’s gifts in the belief that God means what He says when He gives them to me; namely, that they are free and without cost
(Is 55:1ff).

JMJ + OBT​

My goodness, you and the Catholic Church absolutely agree on something!

As I mentioned in a previous post, St. Paul has made it clear in Romans 4 that we can never place God in a position such that he owes us anything; no one can earn his personal reconciliation with God anymore than any one us could hope to redeem the whole human race. Whenever Paul puts works in contrast with faith and grace, he has that principle in mind: God owes us nothing and cannot be made to owe us anything! Grace is his free gift to us, it’s pouring having been brought about by the Redemption of man accomplished by, in, and through Jesus Christ.

BUT when we become his adopted sons and daughters in Christ, that is when we are justified, we have a new dignity in the sight God in that we have been made truly inwardly just by the gift of sanctifying grace, that is the reality of God dwelling within us and our participation in the Life of the Blessed Trinity. Now we are able to think, pray, speak, and act in a new way, one that is truly pleasing to God; we can then truly merit an increase in grace and virtues, our merit being totally dependent upon God’s grace and our good actions proceeding in Christ (cf. CCC 2006-2016). God gives us that ability not because He has to, but because he wants to so closely associate us with the work of his grace – it is the reality of the dignity and freedom of the sons of God in Christ!

2001 … [Grace] is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it(50)”:

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.(51)

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

50 St. Augustine, De gratia et libero arbitrio, 17L 44,901.
51 St. Augustine, De natura et gratia, 31L 44,264.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA