Split: Debate: Catholic Vs Non-Catholic Soteriology

[corvidae]

Ok,
This is just an outsiders viewpoint really,
but the Catholics are not saying you are saved by your works instead of by grace. Catholics believe that the only way to do good works is by responding to the grace God has given. Therefore, it is not us working our way to heaven, but rather us cooperating with the grace of God.

Second, it seems that both Paul and James talk about your faith needing works, or it is not true faith. What about those who called out “Lord, Lord” but Jesus said He knew them not. Surely if they were calling Jesus Lord they had faith in Him.

Also, how do you get from Paul, that he is saying Love is greater simply because faith is temporary. If that were true, faith is greater than love while we are in the body, but love is greater than faith when we are outside the body. Also, if God is love, how can faith be greater?

just some things to think on

A lone Raven

 

[Mickey]

Furthermore, it would seem that Seraphim is not taking responsibility for his sin, but blaming it on Satan;

The war which the demons wage against us by means of thoughts is more severe than the war they wage by means of material things. St. Maximos the Confessor

Reverent carefulness is necessary here because this sea–that is, the heart, with its thoughts and desires, which one must cleanse by means of mindfulness-is great and vast, “and there are numberless reptiles there” (Ps. 103:25), that is, numerous vain, unjust and impure thoughts generated by evil spirits. St Seraphim of Sarov - Spiritual Instructions

The devil, with all his powers, “walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (I Pet. 5:8). So you must never relax your attentiveness of heart, your watchfulness, your power of rebuttal or your prayer to Jesus Christ our God. You will not find a greater help than Jesus in all your life, for He alone, as God, knows the deceitful ways of the demons, their subtlety and their guile. St. Hesychius the Priest

it would seem as well that sin is a trifling thing to Seraphim.

You obviously do not know much about St Seraphim.

God is a fire that warms and kindles the heart and inward parts. Hence, if we feel in our hearts the cold which comes from the devil - for the devil is cold - let us call on the Lord. He will come to warm our hearts with perfect love, not only for Him but also for our neighbor, and the cold of him who hates the good will flee before the heat of His countenance. St. Seraphim of Sarov

 

[sandusky]

**The war which the demons wage against us by means of thoughts is more severe than the war they wage by means of material things. **St. Maximos the Confessor

Reverent carefulness is necessary here because this sea–that is, the heart, with its thoughts and desires, which one must cleanse by means of mindfulness-is great and vast, “and there are numberless reptiles there” (Ps. 103:25), that is, numerous vain, unjust and impure thoughts generated by evil spirits. St Seraphim of Sarov - Spiritual Instructions

The devil, with all his powers, “walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (I Pet. 5:8). So you must never relax your attentiveness of heart, your watchfulness, your power of rebuttal or your prayer to Jesus Christ our God. You will not find a greater help than Jesus in all your life, for He alone, as God, knows the deceitful ways of the demons, their subtlety and their guile. St. Hesychius the Priest

God is a fire that warms and kindles the heart and inward parts. Hence, if we feel in our hearts the cold which comes from the devil - for the devil is cold - let us call on the Lord. He will come to warm our hearts with perfect love, not only for Him but also for our neighbor, and the cold of him who hates the good will flee before the heat of His countenance. St. Seraphim of Sarov

Those are examples of what I have heard called Flip Wilson Theology: The Devil made me do it.

The devil cannot MAKE YOU SIN.

James, the brother of the Lord, under the inspiration of the Spirit of the Lord says:

James 1:14-16

But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust…lust conceived…gives birth to sin…sin…accomplished…brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

The blame for the temptation, and for the sin, is the sinner’s.

Mickey:

You obviously do not know much about St Seraphim.

Right you are, this is the first I’ve heard of him. Perhaps he and the others did not know much about Job and James?

 

[corvidae]

How can the temptation be due to the sinner.

Even Jesus was tempted, and He most definately was not a sinner. Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan. I would say the temptation comes from Satan, the sin from ourselves. Temptation is an invitation to sin.

A lone Raven

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Sandusky,

No love of God and still be saved. How is this possible? Can you give an example of someone that “made it” in this fashion?

Is there someone in scripture that has made it to everlasting life in this fashion, without love of God? If love is not a prerequisite for salvation, who has has only faith and not love of God and entered in to the kingdom. Does God not love every person the same in the earthly life?

If faith is only important in earthly life are acts of faith just as important? Or is it just the belief part? If faith is only important in the earthly life, is faith dead in the everlasting life? You said that faith was not eternal, right? Just love?

???

 

[sandusky]

corvidae:

How can the temptation be due to the sinner.

Even Jesus was tempted, and He most definately was not a sinner. Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan. I would say the temptation comes from Satan, the sin from ourselves. Temptation is an invitation to sin.

Jesus is not a sinner, and Satan tempted him; if I am not mistaken, the only temptations spoken of in the O.T. were of people tempting GOD, so I am not surprised that it is said that the creature Satan tempted Jesus; however, I stand ready to be corrected on that by anyone who cares to look into it; so it is accurate to say that Jesus was tempted by Satan, but Adam and Eve were not tempted by Satan; though many think of the fall in that way, it is not recorded in that way.

Be that as it may, James clearly says that one is tempted neither by God, nor by Satan.

Look at the passage again; James says *each one is tempted, *WHEN [the time of the temptation] he is carried away and enticed * BY * his own lust.

*His *[the sinner’s] own lust is the instrument of the temptation.

 

[sara888]

Those are examples of what I have heard called Flip Wilson Theology: The Devil made me do it.

The devil cannot MAKE YOU SIN.

James, the brother of the Lord, under the inspiration of the Spirit of the Lord says:The blame for the temptation, and for the sin, is the sinner’s.Right you are, this is the first I’ve heard of him. Perhaps he and the others did not know much about Job and James?

**Hi sandusky,

First of all Jesus had no siblings, I dont want to go off thread here, however, Faith is a work, regardless if you own up to it or not. If you are loving God with all your heart as he requested, then you are following Gods golen rules or commandments. That is required for Faith.

We will be judged on our Faith and obedience according to Christ. Faith and obedience go hand in hand as they cannot be seperated.

You and I have been through this many times. You seem to continually preach lawlessness, by omiting or voiding Gods Commandments. One should preach and teach the Lords commandments which are essential to a Christians Faith… As taught by Jesus Christ himself. You will not gain entrance into the kingdom by teaching others to do away with Gods commandments, or by suggesting they have nothing to do with Faith or judement.since true faith in Christ is one who abides in Christ, and remains steadfast in their faith.

Jan.**

 

[sandusky]

So bascially, the answer to my question (OP), Protestants, is that you think Catholics are wrong, going to hell, and that we need you to tell us the “right” way to believe in Jesus.

Does that about sum it up?

Where’s your faith, Cat?

Christ alone?

Christ + sacramental rituals?

Christ + sacramental rituals + your works of charity?

You sum it up.

 

[Stephen_C]

Where’s your faith, Cat?

Christ alone?

Christ + sacramental rituals?

Christ + sacramental rituals + your works of charity?

You sum it up.

So how do you define sacramental rituals? Are these the 7 sacraments? Please explain.

 

[InLight247]

It is really too bad that some Protestant member could have such a deviated concept about Christian faith.

Just for your information, not all Protestants are like that. I personally belong to a Bible study group with a bunch of Baptist Protestants. They all know I am a Catholic and they all consider highly of my (name removed by moderator)uts and opinions. One of my purposes to join that group is to bridge over. We never argue in our Bible study session.

I also belong to our Catholic Parish’s small church group where we study the coming Sunday’s readings together.

In order to grow in faith, we ought to have an open mind,
a humble heart, and an honest desire of seeking the truth.

 

[sandusky]

**Hi sandusky,

Faith is a work, regardless if you own up to it or not.**

Hello Jan,

I would argue that faith is not a work Jan, and this is why.

Eph 2:8-9 says:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and THAT not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The question is, “to what does the singular, neuter, demonstrative pronoun THAT [Gk. touto], in v8, refer?”

Does it refer to “grace,” “salvation,” or “faith?”

The basic rule of grammar is that the singular, neuter noun in the immediate context is the pronoun’s antecedent.

However, none of the preceding nouns, are neuter singular. Grace is feminine singular, salvation, or have been saved is a masculine participle, and faith is feminine singular. So to what does “touto” refer?

The Answer? It refers to the entirety of the phrase, “for by grace you have been saved through faith.” Greek grammar uses the neuter pronoun to “encompass” a series of thoughts in a phrase into a single unit, or whole. Paul’s point is that all of salvation is a gift of God, and none of it is ex houmōn, or “out of you.”

All of it is divine, all of it is free, and none of it is “ex houmōn.”

That fact is also supported by Php 1:29, in which Paul says that faith is “granted” to the believer.

Salvation is all of God, Jan, and none ex houmōn.

You and I have been through this many times. You seem to continually preach lawlessness, by omiting or voiding Gods Commandments.

Indeed we have Jan, and I have a long-standing request for you to provide any thread on which I have “preached” omitting or voiding God’s commands. To date, you have provided nothing concrete to backup your claim.

Look at Romans 6:1-2 Jan.

May it never be!

 

[sandusky]

So how do you define sacramental rituals? Are these the 7 sacraments? Please explain.

Yes, the 7 sacraments.

 

[Pax]

Love is an “effect” of faith, Sean; it is not a “cause” of faith (1 Jn 4:19).

Greetings Sandusky.

Love is not an effect of faith and there is nothing in scripture that I know of that says such a thing. Scripture does say the following concerning love:

Romans 5:5
God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us.

1 Cor 8:3
But if one loves God, one is known by him.

1 Cor 13:13
So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Love is not an effect of faith per se. Love, like faith and hope, is a gift of God by way of grace.

You are right to say that love does not cause faith. No one is claiming that as far as I know. The claim we make is that love of God is a necessary part of salvation and there is plenty of scripture to back up this claim. Paul even says “If any one has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!”[1 Cor 16:22]

 

[Pax]

Sandusky,

You have claimed that faith is not a work. Faith is both a gift and a work. Scripture makes it clear that faith is a work in the following:

In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, “I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

Paul teaches that faith and love are works in 1st Thessalonians 1:2-3 where he says, " We always give thanks to God for all of you and mention you in our prayers, constantly remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ."

This linkage is also made by Paul in Galatians 5:6 where we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.”

John 6:27-28
Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal." Then they said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

I hope this helps.

 

[sandusky]

Pax said:

Greetings Sandusky.

Love is not an effect of faith But, However, Nevertheless, And, choose one, Pax] you are right to say that love does not cause faith.

Hello Pax, another one of your enigmatic assertions; no need to clarify, I am beginning to understand you.

1 John 4:19

We love, because He [God] first loved us.

Pax, what cause does John give as the sole enabling factor of a believer’s love?

Also, from the above stated truth, can you state a corollary?

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

Sandusky,

You have claimed that faith is not a work. Faith is both a gift and a work. Scripture makes it clear that faith is a work in the following:

In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, “I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

Paul teaches that faith and love are works in 1st Thessalonians 1:2-3 where he says, " We always give thanks to God for all of you and mention you in our prayers, constantly remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ."

This linkage is also made by Paul in Galatians 5:6 where we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.”

John 6:27-28
Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal." Then they said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

I hope this helps.

Pax, I have shown in Ephesians 2:8 and Php 1:29, that grace, salvation, and faith is the gift of God.

If you disagree with my statements concerning Eph 2:8 and Php 1:29, that faith is a gift, then take that position apart; refute my exegesis on those passage. Otherwise, I am just going to ignore your posts; they are just too frustratingly disconnected from the point that I am making.

Forgive me Pax, but your endless scripture postings have nothing to do with what I am talking about. You make no attempt to exegete the scriptures you post, but only post and assert.

Also, you know that my position is that the believer should be at work from the time he or she is saved, until the time the Lord returns, or until He takes him home.

And, knowing that, what do you do? You post scriptures that you know I fully support.

Those scriptures do not refute my exegesis of Eph 2:8 Pax; namely, the FACT that faith
is a gift.

Change your style Pax, or I will ignore your posts.

 

[corvidae]

I believe you are mistaken on the adam and even thing. Who was it who told Eve that she would be like God? Was it not the serpent, and is the serpent not a title of Satan? I do not understand, How could adam and eve fall if they already were tempted by their own lust, wouldn’t that mean they had already fallen.

So we have two explicit examples of Satan tempting, and yet you continue to deny that Satan tempts.

A lone Raven

 

[sandusky]

corvidae:

So we have two explicit examples of Satan tempting, and yet you continue to deny that Satan tempts.

You are wrong; Re-read my post, and explain how you have reached the conclusion that I have denied two explicit examples of Satan tempting.

The grammar of Jas 1:14 indicates that these desires are the direct agent, or cause of one’s sinning (cf Mt 15:18-20).

corvidae:

I believe you are mistaken on the adam and even thing. Who was it who told Eve that she would be like God? Was it not the serpent, and is the serpent not a title of Satan? I do not understand, How could adam and eve fall if they already were tempted by their own lust, wouldn’t that mean they had already fallen.

The word that James is using and that is translated in 1:14 as lust, is also translated in other places as variously, desire, longing, craving, either good as in Php 1:23, or evil (Rom 7:7) and here.

Is it your contention that Adam and Eve were devoid of all desire, longing, craving?

What is the difference between Adam and Eve, and a regenerated Christian?

Explain to me, from the text, what happened in the garden.

 

[sandusky]

Sean Boyle:

Is there someone in scripture that has made it to everlasting life in this fashion, without love of God?

Everyone who gets to heaven loves God.
Sean Boyle:

If love is not a prerequisite for salvation, who has has only faith and not love of God and entered in to the kingdom.

I answered this question above.

Sean, what is a prerequisite?
Sean Boyle:

Does God not love every person the same in the earthly life?

No (Rom 9:13,18; Mal 1:2ff).
Sean Boyle:

If faith is only important in earthly life are acts of faith just as important? Or is it just the belief part?

I have stated my position regarding faith and works all over this forum Sean, and I am certain you know my position on that; but, on the outside chance that you have only read the posts between you and me, you can look back a few posts, and you will find it clearly stated.
Sean Boyle:

If faith is only important in the earthly life, is faith dead in the everlasting life?

Re-read my posts to you on this page of the thread Sean; I have already answered that for you.
Sean Boyle:

You said that faith was not eternal, right? Just love?

I said that?

 

[sara888]

Hello Jan,

I would argue that faith is not a work Jan, and this is why.

Eph 2:8-9 says:The question is, “to what does the singular, neuter, demonstrative pronoun THAT [Gk. touto], in v8, refer?”

Does it refer to “grace,” “salvation,” or “faith?”

The basic rule of grammar is that the singular, neuter noun in the immediate context is the pronoun’s antecedent.

However, none of the preceding nouns, are neuter singular. Grace is feminine singular, salvation, or have been saved is a masculine participle, and faith is feminine singular. So to what does “touto” refer?

The Answer? It refers to the entirety of the phrase, “for by grace you have been saved through faith.” Greek grammar uses the neuter pronoun to “encompass” a series of thoughts in a phrase into a single unit, or whole. Paul’s point is that all of salvation is a gift of God, and none of it is ex houmōn, or “out of you.”

All of it is divine, all of it is free, and none of it is “ex houmōn.”

That fact is also supported by Php 1:29, in which Paul says that faith is “granted” to the believer.

Salvation is all of God, Jan, and none ex houmōn.

Indeed we have Jan, and I have a long-standing request for you to provide any thread on which I have “preached” omitting or voiding God’s commands. To date, you have provided nothing concrete to backup your claim.

Look at Romans 6:1-2 Jan.

May it never be!

**Then why do we have commandments , and why do we follow them…? , also, what happens if we dont abide in them…?

Are we forced by irresistible grace to somehow follow them because of Faith… DO WE NEED TO OBEY THEM.?

Are they important to Faith and why.

Jan

Jan**