Split: Debate: Catholic Vs Non-Catholic Soteriology

[Pax]

Pax, I have shown in Ephesians 2:8 and Php 1:29, that grace, salvation, and faith is the gift of God.

If you disagree with my statements concerning Eph 2:8 and Php 1:29, that faith is a gift, then take that position apart; refute my exegesis on those passage. Otherwise, I am just going to ignore your posts; they are just too frustratingly disconnected from the point that I am making.

Forgive me Pax, but your endless scripture postings have nothing to do with what I am talking about. You make no attempt to exegete the scriptures you post, but only post and assert.

Also, you know that my position is that the believer should be at work from the time he or she is saved, until the time the Lord returns, or until He takes him home.

And, knowing that, what do you do? You post scriptures that you know I fully support.

Those scriptures do not refute my exegesis of Eph 2:8 Pax; namely, the FACT that faith
is a gift.

Change your style Pax, or I will ignore your posts.

You needed correction. You asserted that faith was not a work. I at least agreed with the portion of your post that was true in that faith is also a gift. If you make assertions that are based on omissions and mistaken presentations from scripture then you need to be more circumspect when someone points these things out. Ignoring biblical truths will not lead you to proper understandings.

I appreciate the fact that in our previous exchanges you have done the same for me when you thought I was overlooking something.

 

[Pax]

Sandusky,

I may be wrong but I sense a dodge on your part concerning Sean’s question about love and eternal life.

Let me simplify by asking you a yes or no question:

Is love of God necessary for salvation?

 

[ReflectHim]

Hi,
Catholics do the same exact thing to protestants.

…i agree

 

[Church_Militant]

First a brief background. I was evangelical Protestant from childhood until age 47. I grew up in a Conference Baptist church under some of the most famous evangelicals in the U.S. (Evelyn Christenson, Gary Smalley, Irwin Lutzer, Bill Bright, etc.–these people were either on staff at our church or frequent guest speakers at our church).

I was extremely active in my churches, usually involved in something involving my church at least 5-6 days/nights per week.

So I know evangelical Protestantism well. That means, of course, that I know my Bible well. I’ve not only read and studied through the entire Bible many times, but also been involved in Bible studies all of my life, usually at least two-three per week.

Yet in spite of all this, I and my husband converted to Catholicism on April 10, 2004.

We are extremely joyful in our Church and love being Catholic Christians.

What I want to know is why Protestants try to convince Catholics that our “religion” is false and that we need to “become Christians?”

When I was Protestant, I never did this. I accepted Catholics as true Christians.

I read Jack T. Chick’s tracts about Catholicism and realized that they were fiction. I still liked a lot of the other Jack T. Chick tracts (Somebody Loves You is excellent.) But I didn’t go along with everything JTC said or wrote.

I read other Protestant apologies against Catholicism, and I never believed them. I knew Catholics and I knew that the stuff in those apologies wasn’t true.

I didn’t go after Catholics. If someone told me they were a Catholic, I would ask, “So you’re a Christian?” and if they said “yes,” I was cool with that. I didn’t try to talk them out of Catholicism and explain the “truth” of Protestantism.

If a Catholic didn’t know Jesus, THEN I would try to talk to them about their faith. But I didn’t try to persuade them to give up Catholicism, I just tried to persuade them to embrace the Jesus their Church proclaims.

From what I understand, the Rev. Billy Graham never tried to talk Catholics out of their church. Neither did Dr. Bill Bright (I know this from personal experience–when the “I Found It!” campaign was done in our city, three Catholic churches were part of it! Isn’t that nifty?!)

So why do YOU feel it is necessary to try to persuade Catholics that their Church is in error? Are you getting some kind of reward in heaven for this? Can’t you just accept Catholics as fellow Christians who practice their faith differently than you do and rejoice with them?

I personally think the devil must be laughing his head off. He is convincing Christians to witness to Catholics, who are fellow Christians, instead of pagans who are lost in their sins and don’t know Jesus. Tragic.

Look just how far off topic this thread has wandered. Why wasn’t all this debate on soteriology opened in a new thread?
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

 

[sara888]

Not to throw cold water on it, but I believe serious consideration results in no “happy medium.” Either the burden was put on Christ and it’s all of grace, or the burden remains on us and it’s all of works. Scripture truly does reveal the former.Rom 3:22-24 "…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;As for the JD, it was the Lutherans that moved, not the Catholics.I don’t agree, nor does Paul. You are saved totally apart from works, but you will be rewarded for them. Salvation itself is strictly a free gift based wholly on God’s grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.James must be understood in the proper context, understood by two word: "show me…"You’re right that the fall was fatal. Stick with that thought and build from there.Rom 3:10-18 "…as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE. THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING, THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS; WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS; THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN. THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."Now what is this about a remnant of love, dignity, and innate human worth? Forget James, it’s this divine testimony that must not be theologically glossed over.

What you’re not grasping in Scripture is the true gravity of sin and, ultimately, what it took to reconcile the above, fatally, fallen mankind to an infinitely, holy God. Meditate on the whole aspect of the cross (Who was put there in our place) and there’s no way one could think God’s response to sin was, “Hey, it’s really not as bad you think. There’s still some good left and I’ll bring it out of you.”

**
Apop, if works have nothing to do with ones salvation, then why did Christ instruct christians to follow and abide in them… If they are essential to a Christians faith, why do you exclude them with regard to justification/Salvation.

You are preaching lawlessness and teaching others that commandments have nothing to do with ones Faith and or salavation… You continually omit and refute Commandment keeping with every post.

Christ job on the cross was finished, however we as his servants are not done doing our job which is to remain steadfast in our Faith and abide in Christ commands. You still fail to define true faith in christ… You preach a man-made doctrine that does not apply to true Christian teaching and the requirments of the Lord.

Angel Jan.**

 

[Michael_Francis]

CM’s point is well taken.
This thread is split off into a new thread.

 

[apophasis]

**
Apop, if works have nothing to do with ones salvation, then why did Christ instruct christians to follow and abide in them… If they are essential to a Christians faith, why do you exclude them with regard to justification/Salvation.

You are preaching lawlessness and teaching others that commandments have nothing to do with ones Faith and or salavation… You continually omit and refute Commandment keeping with every post.

Christ job on the cross was finished, however we as his servants are not done doing our job which is to remain steadfast in our Faith and abide in Christ commands. You still fail to define true faith in christ… You preach a man-made doctrine that does not apply to true Christian teaching and the requirments of the Lord.

Angel Jan.**

Jan, will you tell me what you think these passages mean?Rom 5:18-19 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.*So then why the Law? Why Commandments such as "Thou shalt not murder, covet, steal, commit adultery, etc.?*Rom 5:20-21 "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life (how?) through Jesus Christ our Lord."Is Paul here teaching that keeping “Commandments” results in righteousness to eternal life?

 

[sara888]

Jan, will you tell me what you think these passages mean?Rom 5:18-19 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.*So then why the Law? Why Commandments such as "Thou shalt not murder, covet, steal, commit adultery, etc.?*Rom 5:20-21 "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life (how?) through Jesus Christ our Lord."Is Paul here teaching that keeping “Commandments” results in righteousness to eternal life?

**
You misinterpret and misquote Paul with regard to Gods commandments . Paul teaches Gods Laws and commandments are essential to ones faith.

If commandments are essential and part of faith , then we are going to be judged on both since they do go hand in hand, or you cannot have one without the other…

CHRIST teaches you cannot have faith without following his commandments.

Jan**

 

[apophasis]

sara888:

You misinterpret and misquote Paul with regard to Gods commandments.

Actually, my quote was just that…a quote. How could I “misquote?” I didn’t really interpret anything. I’m asking you to. So what is he teaching in those passages? According to Paul (not Jan), what was the purpose of the Law, the Decalogue?

Paul teaches Gods Laws and commandments are essential to ones faith.

Is that what you think Paul is teaching in those verses? Sorry, I don’t see it.

What do you think Paul means where he says:"Now that no one is justified by law (no definite article, i.e., the principle of law, commandment keeping of any kind) before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith” (Gal. 3:11). It doesn’t seem to me Paul integrates righteousness (justification) with law keeping. Now, tell me, based on the previous passages I provided you, how does Paul teach a man is “made righteous?”

If Paul teaches that God’s “Laws” and commandments are essential to one’s salvation faith, then how is it he says:“However, the Law is not of faith (i.e, based on, or, faith based)…” (Gal. 3:12)If Law is essential to one’s salvation “faith” (even though, according to Paul, the Law is not faith-based), how is it Paul goes on to teach that Christ redeemed us (believers) from the curse of the Law…in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham (being reckoned righteous, justified, by God through faith) might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit (divine justification) THROUGH FAITH (Gal. 3:8-14)?

Can you now show me where Paul contradicts himself and states that justification comes through the principle of law?

CHRIST teaches you cannot have faith without following his commandments.

Ok, and where does He actually teach this principle? Will you provide me with the actual quote? Can you also show me where Jesus calls the Ten Commandments, “My commandments?”

Now I am quite aware that in John 14 and 15 Jesus says to those who are already His, “If you* love* Me you will keep my commandments,” but that’s relationship (love) between Him and His, not the means for their salvation.

To the contrary, throughout John’s Gospel account Jesus teaches salvation/eternal life through belief in Him (ex. 3:14-18). And based on the Gospel message of salvation, found through out the Book of Acts and the Epistles, His Apostles remained consistently true to His original message/teaching. Has RC’ism? Have you? The unity Christ prayed for in His High Priestly prayer was unity of faith in Him alone, not superficial, religious conformity.

 

[sara888]

Actually, my quote was just that…a quote. How could I “misquote?” I didn’t really interpret anything. I’m asking you to. So what is he teaching in those passages? According to Paul (not Jan), what was the purpose of the Law, the Decalogue?Is that what you think Paul is teaching in those verses? Sorry, I don’t see it.

What do you think Paul means where he says:"Now that no one is justified by law (no definite article, i.e., the principle of law, commandment keeping of any kind) before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith” (Gal. 3:11). It doesn’t seem to me Paul integrates righteousness (justification) with law keeping. Now, tell me, based on the previous passages I provided you, how does Paul teach a man is “made righteous?”

If Paul teaches that God’s “Laws” and commandments are essential to one’s salvation faith, then how is it he says:“However, the Law is not of faith (i.e, based on, or, faith based)…” (Gal. 3:12)If Law is essential to one’s salvation “faith” (even though, according to Paul, the Law is not faith-based), how is it Paul goes on to teach that Christ redeemed us (believers) from the curse of the Law…in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham (being reckoned righteous, justified, by God through faith) might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit (divine justification) THROUGH FAITH (Gal. 3:8-14)?

Can you now show me where Paul contradicts himself and states that justification comes through the principle of law?Ok, and where does He actually teach this principle? Will you provide me with the actual quote? Can you also show me where Jesus calls the Ten Commandments, “My commandments?”

Now I am quite aware that in John 14 and 15 Jesus says to those who are already His, “If you* love* Me you will keep my commandments,” but that’s relationship (love) between Him and His, not the means for their salvation.

To the contrary, throughout John’s Gospel account Jesus teaches salvation/eternal life through belief in Him (ex. 3:14-18). And based on the Gospel message of salvation, found through out the Book of Acts and the Epistles, His Apostles remained consistently true to His original message/teaching. Has RC’ism? Have you? The unity Christ prayed for in His High Priestly prayer was unity of faith in Him alone, not superficial, religious conformity.

**

What I stated above is you misquote Paul in general. If loving Christ means to keep his commandments, how does one gain entrance into the kingdom by NOT loving Christ… Apop, Faith is an action, not just a belief, as you are professing… You are claiming a christian cannot fall from grace or we cannot loose our salvation by our works or acts. Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? If we can not lose our salvation, does this mean we can do anything that we want (sin), and just ask God to forgive us?

Throughout the gospel Jesus preaches and teaches Faith and commandment keeping as this is essential to a true believing Christian.

In Matthew the rich man asked… Father what must I do to gain eternal life… Jesus responds by saying… Keep my commandments…

Jan**

 

[sara888]

**Apop,

Matthew"19": Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

15"9": But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew19"17": And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Rev22"14": Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

“12”: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

Commandments are essential to Faith, we are being judged on our belief and our obedience to Christ commandments so we may enter the kingdom.

Jan**

 

[sara888]

**Apop and Sandusky, Hello

Since you both love to quote Romans and or Paul,

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Remember this was written to Christians!

Romans 8:12-13 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. [13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 11:20-22 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: [21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If this is not a scriptural example of losing one’s salvation then I don’t know what is! If it’s not an example, then what does it mean?

Jan**

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

You needed correction. You asserted that faith was not a work. I at least agreed with the portion of your post that was true in that faith is also a gift. If you make assertions that are based on omissions and mistaken presentations from scripture then you need to be more circumspect when someone points these things out. Ignoring biblical truths will not lead you to proper understandings.

I appreciate the fact that in our previous exchanges you have done the same for me when you thought I was overlooking something.

Pax, I have not ignored anything, and I have not overlooked anything.

You claim that faith is both a gift and a work.

Here are the verses you presented:

Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”

Rev 2:19 that, “I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

Paul teaches that faith and love are works in 1st Thessalonians 1:2-3 where he says, " We always give thanks to God for all of you and mention you in our prayers, constantly remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ."

This linkage is also made by Paul in Galatians 5:6 where we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.”

John 6:27-28
Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal." Then they said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

As I said before concerning these verses, I am in full agreement with them. A Christian works in faith, by faith, and of faith, same with love and hope, and that is not what saves him.

I think that you would like to prove that the act of faith is a “work?”

If that is correct, you have not done that.

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

Sandusky,

I may be wrong but I sense a dodge on your part concerning Sean’s question about love and eternal life.

Let me simplify by asking you a yes or no question:

Is love of God necessary for salvation?

No dodge, Pax; you don’t realize that Sean has asked the same question you ask at least 3 times now, and I have answered it the same way each of those times.

The answer is NO

 

[sara888]

Pax, I have not ignored anything, and I have not overlooked anything.

You claim that faith is both a gift and a work.

Here are the verses you presented:As I said before concerning these verses, I am in full agreement with them. A Christian works in faith, by faith, and of faith, same with love and hope, and that is not what saves him.

I think that you would like to prove that the act of faith is a “work?”

If that is correct, you have not done that.

**

The Bible is clear that faith in Jesus Christ,comes to men through revelation from the Father (Matt 16:15-17).

However, it is equally clear that a man MUST exercise his free will to accept that revelation.

As Paul, himself, explained in Romans 10:17, “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Men must hear the “word” given to them by God before they can have faith. Hearing, used in this sense, is an act of will that involves acceptance of God’s message.

It is a commandment of God to have faith in Christ (Matt. 23:23; Mark 11:22; 1 Tim 1:5; 6:11-12).

If Men believe in Christ, they are obeying a commandment of God.**

 

[Pax]

Pax, I have not ignored anything, and I have not overlooked anything.

You claim that faith is both a gift and a work.

Here are the verses you presented:As I said before concerning these verses, I am in full agreement with them. A Christian works in faith, by faith, and of faith, same with love and hope, and that is not what saves him.

I think that you would like to prove that the act of faith is a “work?”

If that is correct, you have not done that.

Thanks for the clarification…I apologize if I seemed overly suspicious of what you were saying and not saying. Now, of course our disagreement is clear and I will attempt to deal with it as forthrightly as possible.

The act of faith is clearly a work and I beleive that the scriptures I provided do in fact prove it. A little logic might help here as well. Faith is the act of believing and believing is clearly something we do. We are unable to believe in God without his grace. God’s grace is the element that constitutes the gift that enables us to do that thing known as “believing.” The noun “faith” is clearly a gift of God and we do not come by it on our own. Once we have received the gift it is now an action within us that we do. This latter part is the “work” dimension of faith and it is the part that makes it “living” as opposed to what James calls “dead.”

Naturally, all of this revolves around the sola fide argument and you and I are not completely unacquainted with what the other believes. I want you and the participants on this thread to know that I do respect your point of view. I know that you believe that works are a necessary outcome of one’s faith. In a practical sense, and not a theological one, your position is not that great a leap from beleiving that we are **not **saved by faith alone. It is clear that we both labor to further our love of God, to practice virtue and to avoid sin. A disinterested third party/observer that watched us in our Christian walk, without knowing the theological arguments between us, probably would not see a difference.

There are, however, significant theological issues in the fine points of doctrine and on these you know we’re gonna spar. Hopefully, if we cover old ground it will not be for the sake of argument and that there may be some benefit to it. I’ll try not to simply repeat what I have discussed with you before. Just remember that I sometimes inadvertantly repeat myself because I cannot always remember what we may or may not have already mentioned.

 

[sandusky]

Thanks for the clarification…I apologize if I seemed overly suspicious of what you were saying and not saying. Now, of course our disagreement is clear and I will attempt to deal with it as forthrightly as possible.

The act of faith is clearly a work and I beleive that the scriptures I provided do in fact prove it. A little logic might help here as well. Faith is the act of believing and believing is clearly something we do. We are unable to believe in God without his grace. God’s grace is the element that constitutes the gift that enables us to do that thing known as “believing.” The noun “faith” is clearly a gift of God and we do not come by it on our own. Once we have received the gift it is now an action within us that we do. This latter part is the “work” dimension of faith and it is the part that makes it “living” as opposed to what James calls “dead.”

Naturally, all of this revolves around the sola fide argument and you and I are not completely unacquainted with what the other believes. I want you and the participants on this thread to know that I do respect your point of view. I know that you believe that works are a necessary outcome of one’s faith. In a practical sense, and not a theological one, your position is not that great a leap from beleiving that we are **not **saved by faith alone. It is clear that we both labor to further our love of God, to practice virtue and to avoid sin. A disinterested third party/observer that watched us in our Christian walk, without knowing the theological arguments between us, probably would not see a difference.

There are, however, significant theological issues in the fine points of doctrine and on these you know we’re gonna spar. Hopefully, if we cover old ground it will not be for the sake of argument and that there may be some benefit to it. I’ll try not to simply repeat what I have discussed with you before. Just remember that I sometimes inadvertantly repeat myself because I cannot always remember what we may or may not have already mentioned.

Pax, and Jan, from your post #135.

I do not want to quibble over the point of faith as a work; clearly, I believed, and continually believe, voluntarily, and by personal volition, in all that the name of Jesus Christ entails, only because God decided that I would believe, and then made it a reality by the faith that He granted to me.“I love, because He first loved me.” (1 Jn 4:19)

“of Him [by His doing], I am in Christ Jesus…” (1 Cor 1:30)

 

[Pax]

No dodge, Pax; you don’t realize that Sean has asked the same question you ask at least 3 times now, and I have answered it the same way each of those times.

The answer is NO

To me this is very important. I do not believe that we are saved if we do not love God, and I believe that this points to the greatest weakness in the arguments favoring sola fide.

God will not give us something that we do not want. If we do not love God then we will not want to spend eternity with him. God will not force someone to spend eternity with him knowing that the person does not love him.

Let’s see what scripture says about love in the plan of salvation.

BY LOVE
1 Cor 8:3
…but anyone who loves God is known by him. (if we are not known by God we will not be saved per Matt 7:23)

2 Thess 2:10
and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. (The truth is a person and that person is Jesus per John 14:6)

1 Cor 16:22
Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord. Our Lord, come!

Jam 1:12-15
Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

James 2:5
Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him?

Luke 10:25-37
“Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

John 14:15
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

1Cor 2:9
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him”

1Cor 13:1-2
If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not
have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

1Cor 13:13
And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

LOVE IS OBEDIENCE
1Jn 5:3
For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.

2 Jn 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment just as you have heard it from the beginning-you must walk in it.

The problem that I see here is not what the teaching of salvation by faith alone says and includes from scripture, but all of things that the teaching ignores and leaves out. I can argue that we are saved by love of God because scripture makes it clear that we must love God and that God has promised eternal life to those who love him.

Such an argument is, however, faulty. It isn’t faulty because of what it says, but is faulty because of what it does not say. Clearly, we cannot love God without faith because without faith we would not believe in God. If you do not believe in God it is impossible to love him. On the other hand, I can do as the demons do and believe without love of God and without obedience to his will. In this case I would have faith alone and would not be saved.

I can easily erect arguments from scripture that show that we are saved by baptism, by love, by obedience, by endurance, by hope, by works, or by faith alone. The problem with each argument if isolated is that each of them would share the exact same weakness as sola fide. Each argument would ignore everything else that scripture clearly indicates as necessary to salvation by way of God’s grace.

 

[sara888]

Pax, and Jan, from your post #135.

I do not want to quibble over the point of faith as a work; clearly, I believed, and continually believe, voluntarily, and by personal volition, in all that the name of Jesus Christ entails, only because God decided that I would believe, and then made it a reality by the faith that He granted to me.“I love, because He first loved me.” (1 Jn 4:19)

“of Him [by His doing], I am in Christ Jesus…” (1 Cor 1:30)

**You still had a choice to freely love him back and accept him. As Christ does not force us to obey him , unless you are suggesting irresistible grace, which you have refuted many times in our debates.

Also you did not address my post above #132 with regard to my romans verses, which clearly show how one can be cut off or loose their salvation.
Jan**

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Everyone who gets to heaven loves God.

So God’s grace, love and faith are required for entry into heaven/saved? More than just faith is required to be saved? Am I understanding your position correctly?