Split: Debate: Catholic Vs Non-Catholic Soteriology

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Actually, I just wanted you to articulate the point of disagreement with Catholicism, rather than your point of disagreement with a straw man. I thought that you probably did have something in mind, but that you weren’t articulating it well. Your last post was considerably better.

Not literally, no, but desiring what baptism means and what it spiritually accomplishes.

It is regenerative (at least, Catholic believe that it is), but it is only normatively necessary for salvation, as the desire for the gift of baptism suffices in cases when it is unavailable.

And thus, there is a reasonable basis for whether certain passages should be interpreted in a certain way. That is the only point I wanted to make with you. It isn’t logically demanded that God cannot choose baptism as an instrument of grace, so the question becomes whether Scripture tells us that He did or did not. Presumably, Catholics think that Scripture says this, which is why they are Catholic. If this is the case, then Trent is not inconsistent with that interpretation.

Let’s just remember that everyone has different ways of interpreting Scripture (that goes for Protestants and Catholics). It is generally more helpful to first explain those interpretations in as much detail and clarity as possible before actually trying to make arguments based on them.

Back to your regularly scheduled polemics. 😃
Thank you, and please, continue holding me to your standard whatever the topic.

To borrow from Billy Joel, “don’t go changin’…I like you just the way you are.” :tiphat:
 
You continue to dodge
I am sorry that you see it as a dodge. The Catholic position has been explained to you with much clarity on this forum about everything from justification to baptism to purgatory-by some very gifted Catholic apologists (of which I am not one). You do not agree–I understand that. I disagree with your position on many issues. You will adhere to what you believe is true–and I will stay obedient to the teachings and the truth of the Catholic Church.

I ask your forgiveness if I have ever offended you in any way.
May the Lord protect and guide you.

Mickey
 
Then there is no substance to the argument that has been going on over numerous posts.
Sure there is. The fact that sin is personal and not impersonal is fundamental to the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ.
 
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Mickey:
You and I both know the arguments. Nowhere in the Sacred Scriptures does it support your interpretation about the rejection of infant baptism–whereas there are numerous verses to support households being baptized and…well…you are familiar with the Catholic understanding (I’m aware you reject it).
The point is nowhere does Scripture ever support infant baptism. This unbiblical exercise was borne out of the false notion that the “sacrament”* itself *washed away “original sin” in an infant and his soul was infused with righteousness - all apart from personal faith in Christ.

Yes, there are instances in Scripture where “households” believed and were baptized.

In Acts eleven Peter gives the account of how he was instructed by the Lord to take the word of Christ to Gentiles that they might believe and receive the Holy Spirit. Cornelius was told to send for Peter, “and he shall speak words to you (not baptise you) by which you will be saved, you and all your household” (v. 14). Peter then remembered the differentiation Jesus made:Acts 11:16-17 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, BUT you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as {He gave} to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?"Take note in the above text that Peter was sent to them with “words” by which they would be saved (not water). Those “words” were the message concerning the substitutionary sin-sacrifice of Jesus Christ for their sins and His subsequent, bodily resurrection. They believed his words and afterward the Holy Spirit fell upon them:Acts 15:7-9 "After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us (Jews) and them (Gentiles), cleansing their hearts by (baptism? NO!) faith."Take note that (1) it was those who “believed” that had their hearts cleansed, and (2) the text says nothing about them being baptized. Of course one would assume they were, but the pouring out of the Holy Spirit and the cleansing of their hearts happened the moment they “believed,” prior to and apart from any subsequent, ritual, water baptism. The emphasis and key word here is “believed.” Something infants cannot do.

This pre-faith requirement sets a precendence for all subsequent “household” conversions and baptisms recorded in Scripture:

In Acts 16 a woman named Lydia was listening to the words of Paul, she believed, along with her household, and they were subsequently baptized.

In the same chapter Paul tells the Philippian jailer to “believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household” (vs. 31). In verse thirty-four it explicitly states that both the jailer and his whole household “believed.” Now you cannot assume this referred to infants since personal faith was exercised by all in his household.

In Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord along with his household. Again, it refers to those within his household that “believed.” And it goes on to say, “…and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.”

In 1 Cor. 16 Paul speaks of the household of Stephanas, whom he baptized, saying they have devoted themselves to the ministry of the saints. Obviously infants cannot devote themselves the ministry of the saints.

Bottom line, it was always those who personally believed within each household that were subsequently baptized. There was no baptism apart from personal belief in the words addressed to them concerning the death and resurrection of Christ. The word “household” does not support the doctrine and practice of infant baptism.

The tragedy is that once faith was separated from ritual baptism (baptising infants), baptism took on a soteriological life all its own within the church. And men began to put their faith in the ritual, assigning soteriological powers to it, which belong only to Christ Himself and personal faith in Him alone.
 
men began to put their faith in the ritual, assigning soteriological powers to it
I understand that nothing I write here, (the wretched sinner that I am), is going to change your view regarding baptism.

My deepest and most sincere apologies to you for any offense I may have caused you.

May the Lord guide you and protect you,
Mickey
 
I understand that nothing I write here, (the wretched sinner that I am), is going to change your view regarding baptism.
Not unless you can present a sound, Scriptural argument.
My deepest and most sincere apologies to you for any offense I may have caused you.
I’ve taken no personal offense with anything you’ve written. The beauty of a forum and the joy of not living in the Middle Ages is being able to express one’s own view civilly and publicly without being persecuted by the ruling authorities.
May the Lord guide you and protect you,
Mickey
Thanks, Mickey. You too, of course. Is this a “sign off” on your part?
 
Not unless you can present a sound, Scriptural argument.
The Scriptural references for infant baptism have been well documented on this forum–I am not going to regurgitate them. However this is a wonderful article if you have time to read it: goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7067.asp
I’ve taken no personal offense with anything you’ve written.
I am glad. 🙂
Is this a “sign off” on your part?
Upon reflection, after being on this forum for more than 1.5 years, I have grown somewhat weary of the constant bickering and often uncharitable argumentation (of which I am often guilty). It serves no purpose for my spiritual life. Most discussions are fueled by pride.

I believe I will increasingly diminish my participation here so that I can focus on my faith in the Holy Trinity, to grow in my love for Jesus Christ, and to deepen my commitment to Christ’s Church.

Peace be unto you,
Mickey
 
Pax [/quote said:
Are you and/or Sandusky suggesting that Adam and Eve would have fallen had Satan never been present?

I’m not saying that.
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Pax:
Then there is no substance to the argument that has been going on over numerous posts.
Why not?
 
Sure there is. The fact that sin is personal and not impersonal is fundamental to the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ.
You are not paying attention and you are introducing a different point entirely with this response. The particular discussion that the question addressed was about temptation and whether or not Satan tempts anyone. Based on your answer to my question there is no substance to your argument against Satan tempting people.
 
You can clothe works in whatever philosophical system you desire, and describe it with whatever words you will…
…the basis for that justification is finally the performance of the individual.
I know from other exchanges between us that what you have said in this post is probably your biggest beef with Catholic teaching on the relationship of faith and works as they connect to grace and justification.

I think I have effectively demonstrated to you in the past that grace is the great enabler that empowers everything done by the Christian in Jesus Christ , and that everything good that we do is literally the work of the Father’s hands in our hearts, minds, bodies, and souls. I have also pointed out to you that faith is both a gift and a work and I have given plenty of scripture and logic in the past to support this point as well. You have balked at this because in the end you believe that if we have any participation in the process than our salvation is works righteousness.

I can appreciate your point about this but I believe it to be doctrinally driven and not scripturally driven. I also think that you have set up some obstacles in your logic because of your sincere and deeply held doctrinal beliefs. You perhaps see my views in a similar fashion. I appreciate the exchanges because we can at least begin to better appreciate one another’s views and perhaps their merits if we keep working at it.

That having been said, I am going to try another approach in talking about the same points that I have made concerning God’s grace at work in us and our part, if there is any, in that plan. I have mentioned in other threads that we are not inert beings. God made us in his image and likeness, and He did so deliberately.
God also created things that are not alive and do not think, but some are not completely inert. The sun is a great example of something quite powerful, quite active, and yet not alive. The nuclear furnace of the sun is quite active and dynamic and it would neither exist or operate unless God willed it and sustained it as He does all things in the universe.

It is proper to say that the sun sustains life on earth even though the sun is clueless about what it is doing. The sun is performing exactly as God designed it and willed it to operate. Nevertheless, the sun’s composition and character have a function and the sun does what it does by its very nature. One cannot separate the sun from what it is and what it does.

Likewise, animals are not inert. They of course are wonderful living creatures created by God but they were not created in his image and likeness. Animals act and live according to God’s plan for them. There is a certain amount of intelligence built into each species appropriate to its nature and they all act and react according to that nature. They follow God’s plan and design even if only by instinct and limited intelligence.

In scripture we read about Balaam’s ***[see Numbers 22:22-34].
Needless to say Balaam had an ordinary beast of burden upon which he road and this animal only acted according to its nature until God intervened. It becomes clear in the narrative that God enabled the *** to see the angel of the Lord standing in the road, while Balaam initially could not. The scripture tells us in verse 28"Then the Lord opened the mouth of the ***, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?” Scripture then tells us in verse 31 that “the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord…” Balaam then speaks with both the *** and the angel.

These strange and unnatural events happened by way of the power of God. In the life of the Christian grace acts upon the individual in a similarly miraculous fashion. By grace we are able to please God. Examples of scripture telling us this are:

1 John 3:22
we receive from him whatever we ask, because we obey his commandments and do what pleases him.

Col 1:10
so that you may lead lives worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, as you bear fruit in every good work and as you grow in the knowledge of God.

1 Thess 4:1
Finally, brothers and sisters, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus that, as you learned from us how you ought to live and to please God (as, in fact, you are doing), you should do so more and more.

Prov 16: 6-7
By loyalty and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the LORD one avoids evil. When the ways of people please the LORD, he causes even their enemies to be at peace with them.

cont. on next post
 
cont. from previous post

In a way we are not unlike Balaam’s ***. Balaam’s *** spoke and apparently employed thought processes beyond that of its everyday life. Balaam’s *** did something by way of God’s power working within it. Based on the nature of what donkeys normally do vs. what Balaam’s donkey did, it is quite proper to say what scripture says in stating "And the *** said to Balaam, ‘Am I not your ***, upon which you have ridden all your life long to this day? Was I ever accustomed to do so to you?’ " Clearly, Balaam’s *** spoke. Not only did it speak these words but it said some others as well. Moreover, the donkey also saw the angel even when Balaam did not. So the donkey spoke and the donkey saw the angel. This is impossible for a donkey except by way of God’s power and grace.

Your logic against Catholic teaching on justification as works righteousness needs to be applied against the narrative of Balaam’s *** to recognize the break down of your criticisms. Balaam’s *** spoke and saw the angel. This was something that Balaam’s *** did and it is testified to in scripture. This set of events is a miracle, but it is improper to suggest that the *** worked a miracle. Likewise, when we do good works in justification as described by James and even Paul in Eph 2:10, it is not us that are doing the justifying through works righteousness. We cannot do anything that is pleasing to God outside of faith and God’s grace anymore than Balaam’s *** could speak or see an angel without God enabling it to perform in this miraculous manner. Balaam’s *** was an active participant in the miracle on the road, and we are active participants in justification by living by the power of God’s grace through faith and works. Before God’s grace we are like the donkey. We live as natural unregenerated men and women. Once God’s justifies us we are changed.

God’s purpose for us is according to Rom 8:28 “…to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.” This is exactly what begins at our initial justification per Eph 2:8-10. We are justified as a gift and “we are his[God’s] workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” The important phrase is that we are God’s workmanship. We are not our workmanship anymore than Balaam’s ***. We cannot claim the glory even though we do the good works in Christ Jesus that God prepared for us, any more than Balaam’s *** can claim the glory for having seen the angel or having spoken to Balaam. The only difference between us and Balaam’s *** is our nature given to us by God in his image and likeness. We therefore are destined for something higher and our response and participation have a different quality than that of a donkey.

I hope this helps.
 
I do not believe this whole fracas would ever have erupted if somebody had not invented the idea of total depravity, which goes to the issue of free will. The damage inflicted at the fall is fatal, but in order even to respond to grace, there must be some remnant of love implanted by the dignity of our innate human worth as creatures of God whose end is to love him and to be happy with him in eterntiy. We must have free will in order to love. It is out of that free will and love that we are able to exercise our faith by “working through love.” (Gal 5:6)
:amen::blessyou:
This “remnant” you speak of, is what John Wesley taught as well!! He called it “prevenient grace” & it must be part of us, before we can respond–in loving obedience–to God’s offer of forgiveness & salvation!
 
You are not paying attention and you are introducing a different point entirely with this response.
Actually, you’re the one who didn’t do his homework. It all started with Mickey quoting some obscure “St Serephim,” calling sin “arrows” from Satan ((#88). I ask him if that makes sin impersonal (#94). Follow the thread from there: 99, 102, 103… Check out the previous posts, Pax (say that 10 times real fast 😃 ) and you’ll see my response to you is germane to the genesis of this conversation. Your quick, judgmental response to me, however, is not.
 
It all started with Mickey quoting some obscure “St Serephim,”
Obcsure? Obscure!?! My oh my, the Orthodox would be quite upset that one of their greatest saints was called obscure. Please apo, I beg you–can you muster just a tiny bit of charity on this forum?
calling sin “arrows” from Satan
Sin, to one who loves God, is nothing other than an arrow from the enemy in battle.
(St Seraphim of Sarov)

Eph 6:16

besides all these, taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one.

😉
 
Actually, you’re the one who didn’t do his homework. It all started with Mickey quoting some obscure “St Serephim,” calling sin “arrows” from Satan ((#88). I ask him if that makes sin impersonal (#94). Follow the thread from there: 99, 102, 103… Check out the previous posts, Pax (say that 10 times real fast 😃 ) and you’ll see my response to you is germane to the genesis of this conversation. Your quick, judgmental response to me, however, is not.
You have missed the point of my question and have lurched over to yet another detail. The portion of the argument that I addressed is that which pertains to whether or not we are tempted by Satan. You, and certainly Sandusky, have attempted to argue that we are not tempted by Satan. Your response to my question about Satan in the garden showed that there was no substance to that portion of the argument. I am not concerned about any other details.

If you feel that I have somehow been judgmental then I apologize. It simply appears to me that this point is a done deal and that there was no reason for you guys to argue in any way shape or form that Satan does not tempt us. If you get what I’m saying great. If not then let’s just move on to something else.
 
Scrutinize the O.T. for the word baptism, and you will do so in vain. 😦

That is because God is immutable; He doesn’t change, and that is especially true of HIS REQUIREMENT for salvation. God nowhere requires baptism for salvation. :eek:

Salvation has always and only been, salvation is now, and salvation will forever be by GRACE ALONE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, IN GOD ALONE!!!

If baptism is an essential requirement for salvation, then all of those from Eden to Christ are lost. 😦

Abel, Enoch (boy, what does the Catholic do with Enoch?), Noah, Shem, Ham, Japeth, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Caleb, Samuel, David, Ruth, Boaz, Esther, Mordecai, Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Ezra, Nehemia, and on, and on, and on. And what about all of those who trust in Christ, and do not baptize?

That is absurd!

The answer to “what must I do to be saved?” has always been BELIEVE! :clapping:
I believe in the old testament you had to be circumcised. no if’s ands or buts
 
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