SPLIT: Did Jesus have brothers? The perpetual virginity debate.

[Trevor_Stamm]

Sigh… Yes, I know that. Jesus is the ‘container’ within Himself of the Manna, the staff of Aaron, and the Law.
R.C.s choose Mary as their NT Ark, fine, I choose Jesus.

By this you’re saying Jesus was simply a container of the Law, the Manna, and the Rod. Yes, we do have contrasting views, because we say He IS the Law Giver, He IS the Manna from Heaven, and He IS the King that rules with the Rod. The Ark contained these things as the Blessed Mary contained God incarnate, who were and is these things, in her womb.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Here is an excellent and timely article by Joe Heschmeyer on Jesus as the new Temple and Mary as its Gate.

 

[adrift]

The conclusion that it is permissible to bow or worship someone other than God cannot stand. .

Who is drawing this conclusion? The only one that I see here making the statement that it is permissible to bow or worship someone other than God is you. I have seen statement after statement that worship is do to God alone and yet you come up with this strawman.

I would appreciate you answering if the mention in the bible of brothers always refer to them having the same parent?

 

[Arizona_Samson]

You’re trying to extrapolate from a few apostates here and there to a total apostasy of the Church. Meh.

Not so By quoting Acts 18:26 I was demonstrating that the word of God refutes the following errant statement of yours:

If Christian doctrine needed to be reformed that means the previous doctrine was deficient, and anyone born before the “reform” happened did not have the truth.

Incidently, since Acts 18:26 is the only verse I quoted, *exactly who *among Apollos, Priscilla, and Aquilla are you claiming are the “apostates I’m attempting to extrapolate from?”

 

[Arizona_Samson]

You’re attacking Christ’s standing as the Messiah. Don’t do that.

Ah the ol’ “If you don’t believe as I do you don’t love Christ” response.

Not only is your comment uncharitable, it’s altogether reprehensible.

 

[po18guy]

I find it hard to understand why R.C.s would apply the title “Queen of Heaven” to Mary. Jeremiah 44:18 identifies the “Queen of Heaven” as a pagan idol the Israelites were brazenly worshipping. Why would Jesus want his mother addressed by that title?

There are also false gods in scripture. Why would Jesus want His Father called by that name?

Can you provide a Scripture reference to David’s mother as queen mother?

Actually, it was Bathsheba who was the queen mother to Solomon, after David’s death. Try 1 Kings 2:10-19.

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Ah the ol’ “If you don’t believe as I do you don’t love Christ” response.

Not only is your comment uncharitable, it’s altogether reprehensible.

Excuse me , but I don’t think Cat Herder is saying what you attribute to her . When you attack the perpetual virginity of Mary you are undermining Christ’s status as the messiah , since some of the OT prohesies concerning the Messiah pertain to Mary . Where do you see evidence of your claims about Cat Herder , i.e. , "If you don’t believe as I do … " ?

Are you projecting ?

Rather than take offense ( which I think is unwarranted ) , why don’t you actually engage Cat Herder’s admonition/challenge ?

 

[Cat_Herder]

Not so By quoting Acts 18:26 I was demonstrating that the word of God refutes the following errant statement of yours:

If Christian doctrine needed to be reformed that means the previous doctrine was deficient, and anyone born before the “reform” happened did not have the truth.

Again, I said “Christian doctrine,” meaning that of the whole Church. You keep going back to individual people who fall into error. My premise is that there is no way the whole Church could have fallen into error because:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder
How do you know that Von Soden or his other Reformation scholars are correct?

There is a huge difference between Apollos’ situation and that of the Protestant Reformers. Here’s what Acts 18 has to say about Apollos:

Apollos.
24A Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, an eloquent speaker, arrived in Ephesus. He was an authority on the scriptures.*
25He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord and, with ardent spirit, spoke and taught accurately about Jesus, although he knew only the baptism of John.
26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the Way (of God)* more accurately.
27And when he wanted to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. After his arrival he gave great assistance to those who had come to believe through grace.
28He vigorously refuted the Jews in public, establishing from the scriptures that the Messiah is Jesus.

As you can see, Apollos was preaching from his knowledge of scripture and was not fully aligned with the Church, having not been baptized appropriately and that he was not fully aware of Church doctrine . Note, he did not tell them that he was an expert in scripture and knew better the faith better than they did. Rather, he recognized that their knowledge was superior to his own and allowed himself to be corrected. After being brought fully into the fold by Priscilla and Aquila, he was supported by the church and he was productive in spreading he message. Subsequently, Paul speaks very positively about Apollos in his letters to the Corinthians.

Now compare that to the “Reformers.” They started out as members of the Church but apostacized, thinking in their vanity that they had special knowledge that the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church did not have. Ask yourself how these “reformers” demonstrated the credibility of their teachings. You will find that they did no miraculous signs - they simply argued that they could interpret scriptures better than the church that was set up by Christ to teach the truths about salvation and to administer His sacraments. And yes, for a whole variety of reasons, people followed the Reformers out of the church, Do not believe that this means they had any real credibility or the support of the Holy Spirit… Afterall, Charles Manson and Jim Jones had followers of their particular interpretatons of scripture as well.

In the end, this discussion of whether Jesus has brothers is almost always a defacto referendum on Catholic Teaching Those that are aligned with the Catholic church, recognize that what it is teaching about the perpetual virginity of Mary is what it has been taught by those that witnessed her life and passed down through Church tradition. Those that deny her perpetual virginity believe that they have some special insight into what the bible really says that is superior to that of what the Church teaches. Sound familiar?

 

[inkaneer]

1. Revelation 4:4 describes the elders as seated ‘around’ the throne, not on the throne with God. The Douay version has them sitting on seats, not thrones. This verse in no way says that bowing or worshipping any one other than God is permissible. Mary is not mentioned in this scene.

You say that no Catholic worships Mary. I have heard of ‘latria’ or ‘dulia’ (not sure which one applies to Mary).

I find it hard to understand why R.C.s would apply the title “Queen of Heaven” to Mary. Jeremiah 44:18 identifies the “Queen of Heaven” as a pagan idol the Israelites were brazenly worshipping. Why would Jesus want his mother addressed by that title?

Can you provide a Scripture reference to David’s mother as queen mother?

Not sure right now what’s going on with my quote button ??? If the original post does not show up, this is in reference to Post #219. If it shows up correctly, then never mind.(

Queen of heaven is entirely biblical but it is not David’s mother who is the queen mother. It was David’s wife, Bathshe’ba, who was. And the king is not David but rather Bathshe’ba, son Solomon If you consult your Old Testament, specifically 1 Kings 2:12-25 you will it recorded thusly:

"“12 So Solomon sat upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was firmly established. 13 Then Adoni’jah the son of Haggith came to Bathshe’ba the mother of Solomon. And she said, “Do you come peaceably?” He said, “Peaceably.” 14 Then he said, “I have something to say to you.” She said, “Say on.” 15 He said, “You know that the kingdom was mine, and that all Israel fully expected me to reign; however the kingdom has turned about and become my brother’s, for it was his from the LORD. 16 And now I have one request to make of you; do not refuse me.” She said to him, “Say on.” 17 And he said, “Pray ask King Solomon–he will not refuse you–to give me Ab’ishag the Shu’nammite as my wife.” 18 Bathshe’ba said, “Very well; I will speak for you to the king.” 19 So Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. 20 Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.” [RSV]

Notice verses 19-20:

"19 So Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. 20 Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.”

Here the mother of the king sits at the Kings right. Recall the request from the Mother of James and John that her sons sit on the left and right of Jesus? Remember jesus’ response? You will find it in Mt 20:23:

"23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

There are other verses that testify to this idea that the mother of the king is the queen. This was a feature of the Davidic kingdom. Consult these verses:

“He also removed Ma’acah his mother from being queen mother because she had an abominable image made for Ashe’rah; and Asa cut down her image and burned it at the brook Kidron.” [1 Kings 15:13]

“Even Ma’acah, his mother, King Asa removed from being queen mother because she had made an abominable image for Ashe’rah. Asa cut down her image, crushed it, and burned it at the brook Kidron.” [2 Ch 15:16

"Say to the king and the queen mother: “Take a lowly seat, for your beautiful crown has come down from your head.” [Jer 13:18]

“This was after King Jeconi’ah, and the queen mother, the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, the craftsmen, and the smiths had departed from Jerusalem.” [Jer 29:2]

So now fast forward to the New Testament. Jesus is a Davidic King and His Kingdom is heaven. Mary is his Mother. So who is the queen of Heaven???

 

[pablope]

There is a huge difference between Apollos’ situation and that of the Protestant Reformers. Here’s what Acts 18 has to say about Apollos:

 

[inkaneer]

As a followon to post #262 regarding Mary as the Queen of Heaven, I believe I established that it was a feature of the Davidic kingdom that the mother of the king sit at his right as queen. But there is more to this. Catholics are always berated for “praying to Mary” But again there is scriptural support for this.

At the wedding at Cana a problem arose in that they ran out of wine. The incident is recorded in John’s gospel thusly:

"3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” [John 2:3-5] [RSV]

Mary comes to Jesus and John records their conversation. But there appear to be parts of the conversation missing. I added the apparent missing parts below. My additions are in italics:

Mary: “They have no wine.” Can you do something?]
Jesus: “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” but for
you I will].
Mary: (to the servants) “Do whatever he tells you.”

Now I said these parts were apparently missing. Are they? Here is the queen of Heaven approaching the king with a request just as Bathsheeba did with Solomon. Recall Solomon’s words to her in 1 Kings 2:20:

"Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.” [RSV]

This is repeated by other Davidic kings. For instance:

"Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.” [Es 5:3] [RSV]

"And on the second day, as they were drinking wine, the king again said to Esther, “What is your petition, Queen Esther? It shall be granted you. And what is your request? Even to the half of my kingdom, it shall be fulfilled.” [ES 7:2] RSV}

So both Mary and Jesus knew about the Davidic kingdom and requests of the king by the queen. With that bit of information the conversation as recorded by John now makes sense. Nothing is missing. There is a basic understanding of both Mary and Jesus of the Davidic kings granting requests of their mother, the queen. Jesus does so despite the fact that, as He says, His time has not yet come. And so protestants wonder why we ask Mary to intercede with Jesus for us. We are not doing anything more than what Adoni’jah the son of Haggith who came to Bathshe’ba asking her to intercede with the king on his behalf.

 

[Pure_and_Simple]

How dare you judge the Eastern Orthodox church in such a brazen manner? What sort of anti-Eastern Orthodox websites have you been visiting? I have no idea where you got all of your anti-Eastern Orthodox Church views.

??? Guess that comment struck a nerve. I am judging no one, I have never visited an anti-Eastern Orthodox website, and I have no idea what Eastern Orthodox Church views are so that I might be ‘anti’ towards them. I simply put forward my belief that Jesus is the NT Ark of the Covenant. I learned that from the Bible that I read. Just as Jesus prefigures everything about the Tabernacle and its contents, for example: He is in our midst just as the Tabernacle was in the midst of the people, He is the lampstand, the Light of the World, He is the sacrifice, He is our Priest, He is the Bread of Life (manna), He is the Resurrection and the Life (Aaron’s staff), and He is the fulfillment of the Law, … and on and on. From all of that I realize that it’s all about Jesus. My belief that Jesus is the Ark is not meant to be offensive to anyone. I’m simply stating what I believe and that is that all honor and glory belong to Him and Him alone. As Jesus said, “For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’” Therefore, I can seat no one on the throne with Him, nor can I bow to any other.

 

[Cat_Herder]

??? Guess that comment struck a nerve. I am judging no one, I have never visited an anti-Eastern Orthodox website, and I have no idea what Eastern Orthodox Church views are so that I might be ‘anti’ towards them. I simply put forward my belief that Jesus is the NT Ark of the Covenant. I learned that from the Bible that I read. Just as Jesus prefigures everything about the Tabernacle and its contents, for example: He is in our midst just as the Tabernacle was in the midst of the people, He is the lampstand, the Light of the World, He is the sacrifice, He is our Priest, He is the Bread of Life (manna), He is the Resurrection and the Life (Aaron’s staff), and He is the fulfillment of the Law, … and on and on. From all of that I realize that it’s all about Jesus. My belief that Jesus is the Ark is not meant to be offensive to anyone. I’m simply stating what I believe and that is that all honor and glory belong to Him and Him alone. As Jesus said, “For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’” Therefore, I can seat no one on the throne with Him, nor can I bow to any other.

That isn’t the question …

Then who or what is the Messiah’s Gate?

When God promised that He would pass through that gate… Did He lie?

Did His word return void?

Regardless of who you say the Ark is, Jesus cannot be the Gate because…

[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 44:1-4[/BIBLEDRB]
… And YOU will pass through Him to reach the Father. Therefore… who or what is the Gate?

 

[paul_c]

That isn’t the question …

Regardless of who you say the Ark is, Jesus cannot be the Gate because…

[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 44:1-4[/BIBLEDRB]
… And YOU will pass through Him to reach the Father. Therefore… who or what is the Gate?

Well, Jesus does say in John 10:7-9 that he is the Gate.:

7* So Jesus said again, “Amen, amen, I say to you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8* All who came [before me] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.

You know, trading metaphors is missing the point. The church teaches that Mary is a perpetual virgin. It is the author of the bible so it knows what it says and what it means. Those that think that they can interpret the bible better than the authors are just fooling themselves.

 

[po18guy]

??? Guess that comment struck a nerve. I am judging no one, I have never visited an anti-Eastern Orthodox website, and I have no idea what Eastern Orthodox Church views are so that I might be ‘anti’ towards them. I simply put forward my belief that Jesus is the NT Ark of the Covenant. I learned that from the Bible that I read. Just as Jesus prefigures everything about the Tabernacle and its contents, for example: He is in our midst just as the Tabernacle was in the midst of the people, He is the lampstand, the Light of the World, He is the sacrifice, He is our Priest, He is the Bread of Life (manna), He is the Resurrection and the Life (Aaron’s staff), and He is the fulfillment of the Law, … and on and on. From all of that I realize that it’s all about Jesus. My belief that Jesus is the Ark is not meant to be offensive to anyone. I’m simply stating what I believe and that is that all honor and glory belong to Him and Him alone. As Jesus said, “For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’” Therefore, I can seat no one on the throne with Him, nor can I bow to any other.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has devotions to Mary that make us Catholics pale by comparison. I don’t think that anyone doubts that the Orthodox is an ancient communion that traces directly to Christ. Yet, only the Catholic is debated, disputed and opposed. Do you see a dichotomy here? And, which spirit drives this opposition?

As to what you have divined from scripture, the Catholic and Orthodox follow the bible and do not condone private interpretation of scripture. The first error regarding scripture is that of private interpretation. Peter cautions about this danger twice in his second epistle. (2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16). Why? Twisting of scripture and division in the Body of Christ was rampant even in the Apostolic age.

You have been lead to a position of division, which cannot be of the Holy Spirit. Jesus cannot be the ark, as He is eternal and uncreated, whereas the ark is created for the specific purpose of carrying the Covenant. So also is Mary a creation of God for the specific purpose of carrying the new and everlasting Covenant. The Covenant remains even though the ark is destroyed or lost.

Some spicy food for thought:

The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.

 

[OMGJ]

“But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.” [Gal 1:19][RSV]

Now there are two apostles named James,one is the son of Zebedee and one the son of Alphaeus [Mt 10:2,3]. Neither is a son of Joseph but Paul calls this apostle named James a “brother of the Lord” How can that be? Is this James who Paul identifies as Jesus’ brother the same James as mentioned in Mark 6:3 and Mt 13:55? This one verse lends greatly to the “cousins theory” because the geneology of the two apostles named James is clearly stated in scripture. And we all know that scripture is inerrant now don’t we??? So your sibling brother belief position is blown completely out of the water unless you claim that scripture is in error on this point. As a sola scripturist I don’t think you can do that now can you??? So what are you left with? A belief that, on the surface sounds good and looks good but once you delve into it does not hold water.

Just want to point out that the geneology is even clearer than that. (It was already pointed out in earlier posts in this thread but it seems to have been ignored or skimmed or not read at all).

For reference: Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

In Gal 1:18-19, St. Paul was talking about his stay in Jerusalem and mentions that he didn’t see any other apostle but James. We know from Acts 12:2 that James the Great was executed by King Herod. So this James in Jerusalem is James the Less (also believed to be James the Just, the first bishop of the Church of Jerusalem).

James the Lesser is the son of a woman named Mary (whose also the mother of Joseph and Salome) Mark 15:40. In John 19:25, we see the same scene during the Crucifixion as in Mark but this time in names Mary, the mother of James the Less, as Mary the wife of Cleophas. It’s the same Mary because the other Mary was identified as Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Jesus. So it fits that this other Mary is married to Cleophas (also known as Alphaeus) whose children are James, Joseph and Salome.

So how does that make them Jesus’ cousins? Hegesippus, an ancient Palestinian historian recounts in fact that Cleophas and Joseph were blood brothers (Eusebius, Hist. eccl., III, 11).

And by the way, we can also trace the fact that Simon and Judas (Jude) are siblings of James, making them cousins of Jesus. Jude says so himself in his epistle Jude 1:1 “Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James”. While that same ancient historian, Hegesippus wrote: *“After the martyrdom of James, it was unanimously decided that Simeon, son of Clopas (Cleophas), was worthy to occupy the see of Jerusalem. He was, it is said, a cousin of the Saviour;” *

In Christ,
OMGJ

 

[adrift]

James the Lesser is the son of a woman named Mary (whose also the mother of Joseph and Salome) Mark 15:40. In John 19:25, we see the same scene during the Crucifixion as in Mark but this time in names Mary, the mother of James the Less, as Mary the wife of Cleophas. It’s the same Mary because the other Mary was identified as Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Jesus. So it fits that this other Mary is married to Cleophas (also known as Alphaeus) whose children are James, Joseph and Salome.

This is the same Cleopas as in Luke 24:18 who encounters the risen Jesus on the road to Emmaus. The theory that all of the relatives were nonbelievers is not supported by scripture.

 

[Prieldedi]

… I learned that from the Bible that I read.

Does that mean no one TAUGHT you? How come if Jesus told His Apostles “Go, therefore, and make disciples from all nations… TEACH THEM to fulfill all that I have commanded you”? (Matthew 28:19-20)

How can you go against Scripture by self-teaching yourself, and still claim to follow Scripture?

But if someone did, if someone taught you, WHO taught you? Are you certain he was SENT by Jesus? We know He told His Apostles when He sent them to TEACH all nations: “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects the one who sent me” (Luke 10:16) How can you prove the person that taught you was sent by Him? The last of the Apostles died 1900 years ago, is the one who taugh you a successor of the Apostles? How do you know he is? Are you certain he has Apostolic Succession?

it’s all about Jesus

Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is also “ALL ABOUT JESUS”.

all honor and glory belong to Him and Him alone

“HONOUR thy father and thy mother”. God speaking. (Exodus 20:12, Dueteronomy 5:16)

“HONOUR thy father and thy mother”. Jesus speaking. (Matthew 19:19)

“For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

You imply that you do what’s written, but, do you do ALL THAT IS WRITTEN, or do you just select parts of it?

“… For behold, from this time on all generations will call me blessed.” (Luke 1:48) Do you call the Mother of your Savior BLESSED? How often do you do it? Elizabeth, FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT did: “You are most blessed among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb!” (Luke 1:42) Do you do as Elizabeth? If not, why not if it’s WRITTEN that you should?

“So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.’” (John 6:53) Do you EAT Jesus? When? How and how often do you do it? If you do, are your sure it’s Him?

“Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.” (James 5:16) Do you confess your sins? To whom?

“… but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF THE TRUTH.” (1 Timothy 3:15) Why do you say it’s the Bible, contradicting Scripture that says it’s the Church?

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I WILL GIVE YOU THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; and WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:18-19) You reject Peter is THE ROCK and that he was given authority over the other Apostles. You believe the gates of hades OVERPOWERED Jesus’ Church. You deny His promise to His Church, yet you claim you understand Scripture. How could it be? Was His Church overpowered: yes, no? Did he abandon His Church: yes, no?

“… I am with you ALWAYS, EVEN UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD.” (Matthew 28:20) Jesus put no condition to that promise, He didn’t say “you either do this or I will abandon you.” Yet you believe He abandoned the Church.

“Know this well: no prophecy of Scripture can be handed over to private interpretation”. (2 Peter 1:20) Yet you insist on private interpretation of Scriptures, which holds pages and pages and pages of prophecies.

“There are, however, some points in them that are difficult to understand, which people who are ignorant and immature in their faith twist, AS THEY DO WITH THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16) Peter describes people that twist Paul’s writings as well as Scriptures. Have you considered you might belong to this group?

You’re interpreting the Bible by yourself and you’re reaching wrong conclusions. You also are wrong about Jesus’ “brothers” being children of the Virgin Mary. IT IS NOT WRITTEN that they are St. Joseph’s and the Virgin Mary’s children. IT IS WRITTEN that their father is Alpheous/Cleophas and their mother is “the other” Mary. We have presented ample evidence that your interpretation is wrong. Will you persist in your error? A bit of humility wont be bad, on the contrary, it will let you see the Truth.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Well, Jesus does say in John 10:7-9 that he is the Gate.:

7* So Jesus said again, “Amen, amen, I say to you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8* All who came [before me] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.

I think you have the gates in question confused. Jesus is there comparing Himself to the Sheep Gate, aka Lions’ Gate, which is a gate in the walls of Jerusalem, and not the gate of the Temple.

You know, trading metaphors is missing the point. The church teaches that Mary is a perpetual virgin. It is the author of the bible so it knows what it says and what it means. Those that think that they can interpret the bible better than the authors are just fooling themselves.

As someone who used to fool myself in these matters, I can tell you that I would have converted a lot sooner if someone had just explained it all to me.