SPLIT: Did Jesus have brothers? The perpetual virginity debate.

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Is Jesus the Messiah or not? I’d say that question cuts DIRECTLY to your salvation. Since He is the Messiah, then this prophecy:
[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 44:2[/BIBLEDRB]
must be fulfilled. There is no gate in Jerusalem that only Jesus entered through. The only “gate” that could fulfill that prophecy is Mary, and only if She is ever-virgin.
That is an interesting interpretation however, what about the rest of the scriptures about the same gate?

Also, Ezekiel 44:3 The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence of the LORD. He is to enter by way of the portico of the gateway and go out the same way."—Who is the prince? What are the words I have italicized?

(Ezekiel 46:1-4) "'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: The gate of the inner court facing east is to be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day and on the day of the New Moon it is to be opened.The prince is to enter from the outside through the *portico *of the gateway and stand by the gatepost. The priests are to sacrifice his burnt offering and his fellowship offerings. He is to worship at the threshold of the gateway and then go out, but the gate will not be shut until evening.
On the Sabbaths and New Moons the people of the land are to worship in the presence of the LORD at the entrance to that gateway.
The burnt offering the prince brings to the LORD on the Sabbath day is to be six male lambs and a ram, all without defect. New International Version (©1984)

Again…, The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence of the LORD. He is to enter by way of the portico of the gateway and go out the same way."—Who is the prince?..I have always wondered that.
 
Question: How is Matthew 1:24-25 to be understood?
Code:
v. 24 - Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden 
          him, and took unto him his wife:
v. 25 - And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called His
          name JESUS.

'knew her' (refers to marital relations)
'till' (until after)
'firstborn son' (usually means that others followed)
People still use this argument? Really? I did your research for you, enjoy.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-mary%E2%80%99s-perpetual-virginity

But what about Matthew 1:24-25, and the claim Jesus was Mary’s “firstborn son” and that Joseph “knew her not until” Christ was born? Does Matthew here teach that Mary had other children?

Exodus 13:1-2 reveals something very important about the firstborn in Israel: “The Lord said to Moses, ‘Consecrate to me all the firstborn; whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of Israel, both of man and beast, is mine.’”

The “firstborn” were not given the title because there was a “second-born.” They were called “firstborn” at birth. Jesus being “firstborn” does not require that more siblings be born after him.

Until Then

Scripture’s statement that Joseph “knew [Mary] not until she brought forth her firstborn” would not necessarily mean they did “know” each other after she brought forth Jesus. Until is often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English. I may say to you, “Until we meet again, God bless you.” Does that necessarily mean after we meet again, God curse you? By no means. A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the until is fulfilled. It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point. Here are some biblical examples:

2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)
1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)
1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, “he will reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”)
In recent years, some have argued that because Matthew 1:25 uses the Greek words heos hou for “until” whereas the texts I mentioned above from the New Testament use heos alone, there is a difference in meaning. The argument goes that Heos hou indicates the action of the first clause does not continue. Thus, Mary and Joseph “not having come together” would have ended after Jesus was born.

The problems with this theory begin with the fact that no available scholarship concurs with it. In fact, the evidence proves the contrary. Heos hou and heos are used interchangeably and have the same meaning. Acts 25:21 should suffice to clear up the matter: “But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until (Gk. heos hou) I could send him to Caesar.”

Does this text mean that Paul would not be held in custody after he was “sent” to Caesar? Not according to the biblical record. He would be held in custody while in transit (see Acts 27:1) and after he arrived in Rome for a time (see Acts 29:16). The action of the main clause did not cease with heos hou.
 
Question: How is Matthew 1:24-25 to be understood?
Code:
v. 24 - Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden 
          him, and took unto him his wife:
v. 25 - And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called His
          name JESUS.

'knew her' (refers to marital relations)
'till' (until after)
'firstborn son' (usually means that others followed)
You are using the bible that Martin Luther edited for you. Yet, you do not believe as Luther did. Do you declare Luther to be wrong?
 
Joseph was presumed to have been an old man, since that would explain why he could be celibate with Mary. He could have been gven that gift… He could have had young children as a widow, it was very common in those days for women to die in home fires and in childbirth. They were married, Jesus had to be told in a dream to accept her and her Baby, he was not planning to be a step-father to a teen bride… In addition to the semantics of brother/sister common sense would enter in. Having to raise the Son of God, and being poor- they gave the two turtle doves of the poor in HIS presentation in the Temple,- the spiritual-physical-psychic energy of raising and parenting Him would be sufficient for any teenage Mother.
 
494 hasn’t made a single statement since he/she posted this thread…be that as it may.

Constantine gave a very insightful answer at the beginning concerning who was called [son and/or daughter of whom].

I for one have always accepted (without the need of proof) that Jesus was the only son of Mary and that Mary is Aeiparthenos and Theotokos and that Joseph was just as virginal and contemplative as Mary. Both were people of their age and culture and both awaited the fulfillment of the prophecy that a Messiah would be born of the virigin.

Mark 6:3 and Matt 13:55 are very clear to me - this, coupled with Constantine’s keen observations, are all the evidence and proof that 494 needs or should need.

Maybe that’s why he/she hasn’t posted on this thread…contemplating - like Mary - these things in his/her heart.
 
494 hasn’t made a single statement since he/she posted this thread…be that as it may.

Constantine gave a very insightful answer at the beginning concerning who was called [son and/or daughter of whom].

I for one have always accepted (without the need of proof) that Jesus was the only son of Mary and that Mary is Aeiparthenos and Theotokos and that Joseph was just as virginal and contemplative as Mary. Both were people of their age and culture and both awaited the fulfillment of the prophecy that a Messiah would be born of the virigin.

Mark 6:3 and Matt 13:55 are very clear to me - this, coupled with Constantine’s keen observations, are all the evidence and proof that 494 needs or should need.

Maybe that’s why he/she hasn’t posted on this thread…contemplating - like Mary - these things in his/her heart.
I believe so. Even if s/he is not convinced by everything offered here, still s/he has received the truth which cannot help but leave an imprint on his/her heart and mind. Sometimes having so much proof and truth to face when one was sure one had the answer can be daunting. Or, s/he may just be a troll. Let’s pray for the OP that even if s/he came here to troll that s/he may “catch” hold of the truth and accept it in God’s good time. 😉 😃
 
This is an excellent discussion. We are just wrapping up the Mariology course at Holy Apostles, and looked at every one of these arguments, and more. The early Church Fathers went round and round with this topic, but when the dust settled, Mary was Theotokas; virginitas antepartum, in partu, and postpartum was established as dogma, with the final “seal” given by Blessed Pius IX in Ineffabilis Deus.
 
The wording used in the original post, as well as the denomination of the OP- “Christian” suggest to me that he/she is an Evangelical Protestant. Since Luther accepted the perpetual virginity of Mary outright, and Calvin condemned some of the arguments against her perpetual virginity, we can guess that the OP is not a Lutheran, Anglican, or Presbyterian- or else doesn’t accept the positions of Luther or Calvin on perpetual virginity.

It is curious that the OP has remained silent. Perhaps the original post was an attempt to stir up new controversy over an already settled issue (for Catholics anyway), or perhaps his/her motivation was genuine and humble truth-seeking. Either way, its all good!🙂
 
Let’s examine the big picture surrounding this twisting of scripture. The potential contained within this attack against Mary’s perpetual virginity goes much further than would first appear. Unwittingly, perhaps, our separated brothers and sisters, by taking not only an anti-Catholic viewpoint, but also an anti-reformer view point, are not only questioning the perpetual virginity of Mary, but in the same accusation, they open the door to question the divinity of Christ. Unwittingly, I said.

To question Mary’s virginity after her firstborn inherently contains an inference questioning her virginity before the Firstborn. Mary made a solemn vow before Gabriel that she was the handmaiden / bond slave of the Lord (Luke 1:38). How many masters may we serve? (Luke 16:13) To question Mary’s perpetual virginity asserts either that she did not make a vow, or that she broke the vow. That reflects upon her very nature, and thus upon the nature of Christ, to Whom Mary gave birth. Anyone remember the “Jesus Seminar”?

Everything that is done on earth, whether by man, by God, or by evil, is done through a spirit. The flesh does not act of its own, but is motivated by a spirit. Since this assertion of “other children” comes neither from Catholicism, nor from the founders of Protestantism, from what other source (who is opposed to the Blessed Virgin Mary) does it come? Who, or what is the motivating spirit behind this relatively recent attack on Christian belief?

We know from the temptation of Christ that the devil twists scripture to his own purpose (Matthew 4:6, Luke 4:9-11). The evil one and his demons, according to this exorcist priest, blaspheme the Name of God, of Christ, of the Holy Spirit, and of all who are present during exorcisms, but never curse or insult the name of Mary even as they are being subjected to the power of God.

In principle, the evil one duped Judas into betraying Christ. The evil one “entered into” Judas just before Judas completed his act of betrayal (Luke 22:3, John 13:27). Once he had done the devil’s work, Judas’ eyes were opened to the fact that he had “betrayed innocent blood” - the very Blood which he had just consumed at the last supper (Matthew 27:4). Since the evil one is fearful of, or somehow prevented from defaming Mary, does he then dupe the “bible believing truth seeker” into doing it for him?
 
Because that would disqualify Jesus from being the Messiah.
Depends on your “defintion” of Messiahhood I guess, as in it being
a) herited (from mother, similar to as in royal families), or
b) Son of God-ness, or
c) destiny (for one personified “soul-being”), or
d) other “definition”, or
e) combination thereof.

In other words, is Jesus Christ the Messiah because he was born to, or by, the Blessed Virgin Mary, or is the Blessed Virgin Mary the Blessed Virgin because she gave birth to Jesus Christ, or does it apply both, or otherwise?
[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 44:2[/BIBLEDRB]
There is no physical gate in Jerusalem that only Jesus passed through. Thus, the gate being referred to by the prophet is Mary’s womb.
So or so, I am certain it does not refer to enforced (as in doing something to, in this case and view, a woman, something which she, and relatives, wouldn’t want to be done) medical procedure, though if it actually refers to a lower female body part and medical procedure, the LORD surely had very good reasons and sense for such (e.g. regarding education and upbringing), as in e.g. celibacy during pregnancy and Caesarean cut. Though in the view of womb and enter, as in “enter in this world”, then verse 2 would partially seem to be referring to (long-term) mishap, verse three to pregnancy and birth. Nevertheless, when Jesus Christ was the only child of his mother the Blessed Virgin Mary, there is the possibility of “brother/s”, respectivly brother-friends or sister/s, as in children of Joseph, of other Joseph’s wife, (of) other persons in same “household”, and/or by the father.
And, at least personally, and when talking about body parts, it rather appears as it [44:-5] is about mouth and tongue kisses regarding the mentioned gate-mouth (with the emphasis in verse 5 unto male reader), and with
“sit in it” - being called(/told) by mother (to grab meal)
“eat bread before the LORD” - eat alone in place, and/or earlier
“he shall enter” - by his own action (respectivly kind of pre-destined to as child), in this interpretation
“porch of gate” - unexpectedly, in this interpretation
and both mentions of LORD in verse 2 referring to the one and the same persona in this interpretation
“In the first place, we know this concerning you, that you were born through fornication” - Chapter 2:7

The Sanhedrin wanted to deny He was the Messiah. Since they knew the Messiah was to be born from a virgin they needed to deny His virginal birth by saying that He was born “through fornication”.
The Sanhedrin may have come to such conclusion by a years-old document and a statement by the Blessed Virgin Mary quoted on such document respectivly statement by Mary quoted by the person who wrote on such document, quote which may in itself be true as having been said though not necessarily the truest in which was said as it may have been used as a cover - for which there are various possible explanations albeit likely only one is true. Though, if the birth was through fornication, to use that against sure isn’t nice, expressed mildly, regardless of how the alleged fornication happened if it happened.

And a raped virgin is technically still a virgin herself, which doesn’t make go away the evil that happened as in harm done regardless of whether we consider the “occurence” of rape by biologically male animals as intended (for different, though not all, species) in a divinly (given) nature or not, with huge cultural differences between humans and animals of course. By previous sentence, or anyhow, not saying that it was rape in the case of aforementioned 2:7, and not excusing the perpetrator/s if it was rape.
 
After the death of Herod ,the family returned and settled in Nazareth where during the ensuing years Mary bore other children at least 4 sons as well as daughters… Matthew 13-55,56- Is this not the carpenters son is not his mother called Mary? and his brothers James,and Joseph,and Simeon, and Judas? And his sisters are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all things?
Shel Silverstein Poems
 
After the death of Herod ,the family returned and settled in Nazareth where during the ensuing years Mary bore other children at least 4 sons as well as daughters… Matthew 13-55,56- Is this not the carpenters son is not his mother called Mary? and his brothers James,and Joseph,and Simeon, and Judas? And his sisters are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all things?
Shel Silverstein Poems
Welcome to the forums. If you have not, and it certainly sounds like you have not, please read post #22. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8594296&postcount=22
 
The N.T actually does use the terms sungenis (cousin or close relative)
Code:
And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren.
(Luke 1:36 ESV)
Code:
as he spoke to our fathers,
	to Abraham and to his offspring forever.”
(Luke 1:55 ESV)
Code:
but supposing him to be in the group they went a day's journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances,
(Luke 2:44 ESV)
Code:
You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death.
(Luke 21:16 ESV)
and anepsios (cousin):

Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, and Mark the cousin of Barnabas (concerning whom you have received instructions—if he comes to you, welcome him),
(Colossians 4:10 ESV)

LINK

Rather than suntrophos (one raised as a foster brother):
Code:
Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a lifelong friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
(Acts 13:1 ESV)
Or adelphos (brother):
Code:
Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
(Matthew 1:2 ESV)

For Herod had seized John and bound him and put him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife,
(Matthew 14:3 ESV)

LINK
 
James, Joseph, Judas and Simon are the names of the “brothers” of Jesus (Mat. 13:55, Mark 6:3, Galatians 1:19). These three passages plus Acts 1:14 are the ones that have caused all the debate regarding the Virgin Mary having only one son or more.
At the crucifixion of Jesus, “the other Mary” is called by St. John “HIS MOTHER’S SISTER, Mary the wife of Cleophas” (Jn. 19:25). As with James, this Mary, “sister of the mother of the Lord and wife of Cleophas” is not a new Mary making her first appearance in the New Testament. This is the same scene described by Matthew (27:56) and Mark (15:40) so this Mary is the mother of James the Less.
Another possibility is that John is describing 4 women at the Cross:

John 19:25 ____________________Matthew 27:56______________________Mark 15:40

1.Mary Magdalene ______________= Mary Magdalene _____________________=Mary Magdalene

2.Jesus’ Mother = Mary the Mother of_=Mary the Mother of
_______________________________James and Joseph ___________________James the younger and Joses

3.Jesus’ mother’s sister = Mother of Zebedee’s sons___= Salome

4.Mary wife of Clopas _______________________? ____________________________?
 
Another possibility is that John is describing 4 women at the Cross:

John 19:25 ____________________Matthew 27:56______________________Mark 15:40

1.Mary Magdalene ______________= Mary Magdalene _____________________=Mary Magdalene

2.Jesus’ Mother = Mary the Mother of_=Mary the Mother of
_______________________________James and Joseph ___________________James the younger and Joses

3.Jesus’ mother’s sister = Mother of Zebedee’s sons___= Salome

4.Mary wife of Clopas _______________________? ____________________________?
Honestly, the Church has spoken on this long ago. Jesus did not leave us orphans. We do not have to wonder and study and argue (and divide). It is only the recent spirits of anti-Catholicism that have sprung all sorts of new theories - none of which considers the history of the Church or the Apostolic Tradition which has been handed down to us. All of it is intended, at least in part, simply to oppose Church teaching, and ignores the cultural norms of ancient Israel.

I wonder just what “bond slave of the Lord” means?
 
The N.T actually does use the terms sungenis (cousin or close relative)
Code:
And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren.
(Luke 1:36 ESV)
Code:
as he spoke to our fathers,
	to Abraham and to his offspring forever.”
(Luke 1:55 ESV)
Code:
but supposing him to be in the group they went a day's journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances,
(Luke 2:44 ESV)
Code:
You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death.
(Luke 21:16 ESV)
and anepsios (cousin):

Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, and Mark the cousin of Barnabas (concerning whom you have received instructions—if he comes to you, welcome him),
(Colossians 4:10 ESV)

LINK

Rather than suntrophos (one raised as a foster brother):
Code:
Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a lifelong friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
(Acts 13:1 ESV)
Or adelphos (brother):
Code:
Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
(Matthew 1:2 ESV)

For Herod had seized John and bound him and put him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife,
(Matthew 14:3 ESV)

LINK
And the NT proves the “brothers” and the “sister” of Christ are from other mothers thus proving from scripture alone that Blessed Mary remained a virgin. What’s the point in bringing this up about cousins?
 
Honestly, the Church has spoken on this long ago. Jesus did not leave us orphans. We do not have to wonder and study and argue (and divide). It is only the recent spirits of anti-Catholicism that have sprung all sorts of new theories - none of which considers the history of the Church or the Apostolic Tradition which has been handed down to us.
Yes! Exactly, po18guy. This has been settled, for all Catholics, for all time. You either believe that Mary was virginitas antepartum, in partu, and postpartum, or you do not. If you do not, you are not a Catholic.
 
Not sure there was a reasopnable answer given to the “until” with Joseph and Mary and JESUS’ birth. I no longer have the scholary work, but it showed the use of that same phrase in the OT that did not imply the action occured after the fact as in UNTIL. The perpetual virignity of Mary is as old a belief as the Church. Purely on common sense grounds we would expect that they would be honoured and given a role in the young Church. James the cousin of Jesus was bishop of JERUSALEM, not the Apostle, brother of John,IF John’s Gospel is not purely sacramental, asit is both in many places, why would Jesus will Mary to John at the Cross. The family was most important and still is in tribal regions of the Middle East, so she would have been cared for by other sons if she had them.
 
I wonder just what “bond slave of the Lord” means?
Sounds as something in the lines of indentured servitude, respectivly contracted slavery, respectivly working off financial debt, or house servant, or “servant” by other association (e.g. at place and time, any husband’s wife may have been considered his personal servant, or mothers may have been considered “servants” of children). Depends on the context the mentioned phrase is used in, I guess.
 
The Sanhedrin may have come to such conclusion by a years-old document and a statement by the Blessed Virgin Mary quoted on such document respectivly statement by Mary quoted by the person who wrote on such document, quote which may in itself be true as having been said though not necessarily the truest in which was said as it may have been used as a cover - for which there are various possible explanations albeit likely only one is true. Though, if the birth was through fornication, to use that against sure isn’t nice, expressed mildly, regardless of how the alleged fornication happened if it happened.

And a raped virgin is technically still a virgin herself, which doesn’t make go away the evil that happened as in harm done regardless of whether we consider the “occurence” of rape by biologically male animals as intended (for different, though not all, species) in a divinly (given) nature or not, with huge cultural differences between humans and animals of course. By previous sentence, or anyhow, not saying that it was rape in the case of aforementioned 2:7, and not excusing the perpetrator/s if it was rape.
I don’t get it when you talk about “a years-old document and a statement by the Blessed Virgin Mary quoted on such document respectivly statement by Mary quoted by the person who wrote on such document”. What document? What statement? What quote?

The Sanhedrin denied Jesus was the messiah by saying that St. Joseph was the biological father of Jesus. That’s what they mean with born “through fornication”.

As for the second part of your comments, what has rape to do with what we are discussing?
 
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