SPLIT: Did Jesus have brothers? The perpetual virginity debate.

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Here’s a little context for your second quote:

Pastor King Responds to Bryan Cross’ Misuse of Jerome
Are you a non-Calvinist Calvinist? You are arguing where the Reformed Christianity founder counseled not to argue. The context is that Jerome was obedient to the unified Church. Once separated from that authority, neither Jerome, nor you, nor I, nor pastor anybody has any authority to infallibly interpret scripture. What you are pushing here is a personal opinion. To exand on this, the Jehovah’s Witnesses also put forth a personal opinion. How do I know which is right?

As to perpetual virginity, I must trust Martin Luther, Jean Calvin and Huldrych Zwingli’s opinions over yours. Does it bother you at all that 300, 400, or 500 years ago, no Christian believed as you do? No one?

Do you also think that the Orthodox Christians, all 300 million of them, are wrong? Their Church traces directly to the Twelve Apostles.
 
I have no problem you quoting the ECFs but then quote other things he also professed like;
“But as we do not deny what is written, so we do reject what is not written. We believe that God was born of the Virgin, because we read it. That Mary was married after she brought forth, we do not believe, because we do not read it. Nor do we say this to condemn marriage, for virginity itself is the fruit of marriage; but because when we are dealing with saints we must not judge rashly. If we adopt possibility as the standard of judgment, we might maintain that Joseph had several wives because Abraham had, and so had Jacob, and that the **Lord’s brethren were the issue of those wives, an invention which some hold with a rashness which springs from audacity not from piety. You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more, that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication, and it is nowhere written that he had another wife, but was the guardian of Mary whom he was supposed to have to wife rather than her husband, the conclusion is that he who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin.” **Jerome, The Perpetual Virginity of Mary Against Helvedius, 21 (A.D. 383).

and
“I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul…My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross.” Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 377).

And quite a few others but I am sure this makes my point. If you quote Jerome he also teaches what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary.
Here’s a little context for your second quote:

Pastor King Responds to Bryan Cross’ Misuse of Jerome
 
Of course, 1st century AD writers totally used English phraseology and 21st century understanding of words like ‘until’ (the ENGLISH translation of the original words of Scripture). . .😃

I think we agree that the Scriptures in their original languages are inerrant and that exact translations of idioms and cultural understandings were/are a problem for the translators. My question to you is this: If the translators were aware of the language difficulties of the word “until,” then why did they translate it as such all the while knowing that modern-day readers would misunderstand? As I mentioned in a previous post, I checked the language of Matthew 1:25 in four different Catholic Bibles. Three of them were translated the same as my Protestant Bibles. So why would you say that the Catholic translators did not change the wording to make it consistent with their understanding of the word “until.”
 
I do not think it hinges on is. We have seen that hoes hou usually indicates a change in state but certainly that is not what I was saying at all. It is the context.
I hear what you are saying about the Church. It is not unreasonable. However the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is infallible. It has to be believed by Catholics. It is of huge importance.
It is an afterthought in Protestantism. IF a Protestant reads Mattew, they will assume the most natural conclusion if they even spend anytime on a verse that probably does not catch their attention.
So yeah I have a choice. Do I believe the Catholic Church or what I really do seriously believe Matthew was saying? I cannot change how I see that verse. Heck, if it was not infallible it would not have to be such a deal breaker. But it is…
Is Mary the Gate of the Messiah or not? If the gate is not Mary, then someone other than Jesus passed through the Gate of the Messiah and Jesus did not. Don’t you think that is maybe, sorta, kinda, REALLY important? Isn’t the whole message of Christianity that Jesus IS the Messiah?

Good grief.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7706
 
I think we agree that the Scriptures in their original languages are inerrant and that exact translations of idioms and cultural understandings were/are a problem for the translators.
They are a problem not for the translators but for the translation. All translations are approximations of the original meaning, no matter how good the translator is.
My question to you is this: If the translators were aware of the language difficulties of the word “until,” then why did they translate it as such all the while knowing that modern-day readers would misunderstand? As I mentioned in a previous post, I checked the language of Matthew 1:25 in four different Catholic Bibles. Three of them were translated the same as my Protestant Bibles. So why would you say that the Catholic translators did not change the wording to make it consistent with their understanding of the word “until.”
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 15:25[/BIBLEDRB]

So, once Jesus has put all His enemies under His feet, He will no longer reign? After all, it says “until.” So let’s turn it around. Since everyone agrees that Jesus will reign forever, why did they use that word “until” in every Protestant Bible translation? So why would you say that the Protestant translators did not change the wording to make it consistent with their understanding of the word “until”?
 
Here’s a little context for your second quote:

Pastor King Responds to Bryan Cross’ Misuse of Jerome
just pointing out that your using Jerome to justify your interpetation of Mary is refuted by him. But if you want to question 2nd quote then here is more to support what is said from other ECFs and also another quote like the first from Jerome but can’t use same arguement that is in your post. Plus he only has answer to 1 quote from Jerome what about all the others?
The Chair of St. Peter
The guy in your aticle sounds like he really does not understand the Papacy anyway so I can see why he is making the claims that he is in his article.
 
Are you a non-Calvinist Calvinist? You are arguing where the Reformed Christianity founder counseled not to argue. The context is that Jerome was obedient to the unified Church. Once separated from that authority, neither Jerome, nor you, nor I, nor pastor anybody has any authority to infallibly interpret scripture. What you are pushing here is a personal opinion. To ex[and on this, the Jehovah’s Witnesses also put forth a personal opinion. How do I know which is right?

As to perpetual virginity, I must trust Martin Luther, Jean Calvin and Huldrych Zwingli’s opinions over yours. Does it bother you at all that 300, 400, or 500 years ago, no Christian believed as you do? No one?

Do you also think that the Orthodox Christians, all 300 million of them, are wrong? Their Church traces directly to the Twelve Apostles.
The problem is that the Reformers would have never agreed that their belief in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity should ever be declared a ‘dogma’.
They would have considered it to be on par with the Judaizers demand for circumcision as a part of the Gospel.
Which of the Reformers had access to the knowledge of this topic or the depth of study that Eric Svendsen has accomplished?
[/quote]
 
just pointing out that your using Jerome to justify your interpetation of Mary is refuted by him. But if you want to question 2nd quote then here is more to support what is said from other ECFs and also another quote like the first from Jerome but can’t use same arguement that is in your post. Plus he only has answer to 1 quote from Jerome what about all the others?
The Chair of St. Peter
It is the perpetual conflict between the triumph of the ego and submission of the ego through the denial of self. Only one path follows the commands of Jesus.
 
Those of us who you perceive as being “emotionally invested in the particular tradition of the perpetual virginity of Mary” are actually invested in defending the divinity of Christ. You want a “pure” and “simple” Gospel but you want to take away the very core of the Gospel, which is that Jesus is God. Every attack that you make upon Catholic Marian teaching is actually an attack on the divinity of Christ. Case in point: By trying to deny Mary’s perpetual virginity, you are actually denying that Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies perfectly.

The subtext of your comments drips with anti-Catholic bias. For example, you believe that:
Catholics have their “mind pre-conditioned”
Catholics rely on “pre-conceived notion” of “particular tradition
Catholics are not “free to take an unbiased look at the Scriptures and form an objective opinion”

Respectfully, I do not see how your opinion can possibly be objective.

Actually, besides anti-Catholicism, you have another preconceived notion, and it’s called English grammar.

The actual New Testament is not written in English, so I don’t know why you think you can interpret it using English preposition rules.

Catholics on this thread can accuse me of all manner of things and that is okay. I understand that I am not in friendly territory. But, I FIRMLY ATTEST TO THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST. I believe that all prophecy is fulfilled in Him. It was prophesied that He would be born of a virgin, that He was the Son of God, the Anointed One, the Messiah, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Son of Abraham, of the line of David. He is the Sacrificial Lamb, the Lion of Judah, the Rock, the Eternal God. He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He is Savior, Shepherd, He is the Word made flesh, Emmanuel. He fulfilled all those prophecies with more to come. His kingdom shall have no end and He is coming again. So please don’t accuse me of denying the Divinity of Christ or that He did not fulfill prophecy.
 
The problem is that the Reformers would have never agreed that their belief in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity should ever be declared a ‘dogma’.
They would have considered it to be on par with the Judaizers demand for circumcision as a part of the Gospel.
Which of the Reformers had access to the knowledge of this topic or the depth of study that Eric Svendsen has accomplished?
I will agree with you here as none of the reformers thought anything should be dogma it was all up for grabs based on each individuals personal interpetation. Which is why there are so many Protestant churches with so many different beliefs including the JW and Mormans.
 
just pointing out that your using Jerome to justify your interpetation of Mary is refuted by him. But if you want to question 2nd quote then here is more to support what is said from other ECFs and also another quote like the first from Jerome but can’t use same arguement that is in your post. Plus he only has answer to 1 quote from Jerome what about all the others?
The Chair of St. Peter
The guy in your aticle sounds like he really does not understand the Papacy anyway so I can see why he is making the claims that he is in his article.
If you read my post more carefully, you will see that my quotes of Jerome were to demonstrate that po 18guy’s claim that the Bible forbids private interpretation of Scripture is contradicted by Jerome and numerous other ECFs including a Bishop of Rome.

Many ECFs viewed the interpretation of Scripture very much like the Reformers:

**Scripturam ex Scriptura explicandam ease:
**

Scripture is to be explained from Scripture; one of several forms of a maxim employed by both Lutheran and Reformed orthodox to indicate the normative authority and self-authenticating character of Scripture over against the Roman Catholic contention that the church has absolute authority to explain the text. The orthodox grant that Scripture cannot be interpreted outside of the church, but they insist that the authority of the church derives from Scripture and not the authority of Scripture from the church’s testimony. Since Word, as such, is authoritative and effective, it must be its own standard of interpretation. Other versions of the maxim include: Scriptura seipsam interpretatur; Scriptura Scripturam interpretatur,• Scriptura sui in- terpres.

Richard Muller. Dictionary of Latin and Greek Theological Terms: Drawn Principally from Protestant Scholastic Theology (p. 277). Kindle Edition.
 
The problem is that the Reformers would have never agreed that their belief in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity should ever be declared a ‘dogma’.
They would have considered it to be on par with the Judaizers demand for circumcision as a part of the Gospel.
Which of the Reformers had access to the knowledge of this topic or the depth of study that Eric Svendsen has accomplished?
But, heresy is its own dogma! Think about that.

Since our bible leads us to one interpretation, while your bible leads you to another, why on earth do you even care? I mean, really? Do you pound the Orthodox on this same issue? If not, why not?
 
Catholics on this thread can accuse me of all manner of things and that is okay. I understand that I am not in friendly territory. But, I FIRMLY ATTEST TO THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST. I believe that all prophecy is fulfilled in Him. It was prophesied that He would be born of a virgin, that He was the Son of God, the Anointed One, the Messiah, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Son of Abraham, of the line of David. He is the Sacrificial Lamb, the Lion of Judah, the Rock, the Eternal God. He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He is Savior, Shepherd, He is the Word made flesh, Emmanuel. He fulfilled all those prophecies with more to come. His kingdom shall have no end and He is coming again. So please don’t accuse me of denying the Divinity of Christ or that He did not fulfill prophecy.
So then where is His Gate?
Where is the Queen Mother who reigns beside Him on the throne of David?
And where is the Ark of His Covenant?

The Truth is not multiple choice.
 
If you read my post more carefully, you will see that my quotes of Jerome were to demonstrate that po 18guy’s claim that the Bible forbids private interpretation of Scripture is contradicted by Jerome and numerous other ECFs including a Bishop of Rome.

Many ECFs viewed the interpretation of Scripture very much like the Reformers:

**Scripturam ex Scriptura explicandam ease:
**

Scripture is to be explained from Scripture; one of several forms of a maxim employed by both Lutheran and Reformed orthodox to indicate the normative authority and self-authenticating character of Scripture over against the Roman Catholic contention that the church has absolute authority to explain the text. The orthodox grant that Scripture cannot be interpreted outside of the church, but they insist that the authority of the church derives from Scripture and not the authority of Scripture from the church’s testimony. Since Word, as such, is authoritative and effective, it must be its own standard of interpretation. Other versions of the maxim include: Scriptura seipsam interpretatur; Scriptura Scripturam interpretatur,• Scriptura sui in- terpres.

Richard Muller. Dictionary of Latin and Greek Theological Terms: Drawn Principally from Protestant Scholastic Theology (p. 277). Kindle Edition.
Actually you are wrong since most of these earliest did not even have NT scripture that they could say is reliable. Slowly some like the gospels came to be agreed upon but it was not until around Jerome time that the NT was finally decided on. The ECfs used the Scriptures the OT to help explain the NT but they used Tradition to help expalin both and the Tradition was held by the Catholic Church and almost all the them did state that the Church Christ started was the Catholic Church. Jerome wrote against many heresies (which many Protestants today have taken up again) and this would argue against his saying you can interpet scripture without guidance or if he thought as you do then why did he write against their personal interpetation which they based on scripture?
 
Such a strange rebellion you Protestants have against Christ’s mother.

Rebellion? I don’t think so. Mary was chosen by God to bear His only Son. She was a willing, humble servant offering herself to the will of God. Her humble response to God should be an example to us all to be willing to offer ourselves in service to Him.

Catholic Marian dogma is puzzling to me based on the fact that the Apostles who knew her, the four Gospel writers, chose to give us scant information about her. The story of Jesus’ birth was written by only Matthew and Luke. She is mentioned when Jesus was twelve and again at the wedding in Cana. Only John specifically mentions her at the scene of the crucifixion and Luke names her as being in the upper room at Pentecost. Beyond that, not much information is provided. No mention of her life after Pentecost.

The writers of the Epistles omitted her from their teachings as well. By the time the Gospels were written, any dogma regarding Mary should have been formed and written in their inspired writings. Yet, I fail to see any there. And, anything that was written after the Apostles’ writings cannot be considered to be inspired.

The Gospel writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit to tell us about Jesus, the Son of God. All else paled in comparison to Him. So, no, I am not in rebellion against Christ’s mother. I am consistent with the Apostles’ treatment of her in the Gospels. No more, no less.
 
Actually you are wrong since most of these earliest did not even have NT scripture that they could say is reliable. Slowly some like the gospels came to be agreed upon but it was not until around Jerome time that the NT was finally decided on. The ECfs used the Scriptures the OT to help explain the NT but they used Tradition to help expalin both and the Tradition was held by the Catholic Church and almost all the them did state that the Church Christ started was the Catholic Church. Jerome wrote against many heresies (which many Protestants today have taken up again) and this would argue against his saying you can interpet scripture without guidance or if he thought as you do then why did he write against their personal interpetation which they based on scripture?
Irenaeus (130 - c. 200):
For by the fact that they thus endeavour to explain ambiguous passages of Scripture (ambiguous, however, not as if referring to another god, but as regards the dispensations of [the true] God), they have constructed another god, weaving, as I said before, ropes of sand, and affixing a more important to a less important question. For no question can be solved by means of another which itself awaits solution; nor, in the opinion of those possessed of sense, can an ambiguity be explained by means of another ambiguity, or enigmas by means of another greater enigma, but things of such character receive their solution from those which are manifest, and consistent and clear.
ANF: Vol. I, Against Heresies, 2:10:1.

Irenaeus (c. 130-200): (Scripture to be interpreted by Scripture)
If, therefore, according to the rule which I have stated, we leave some questions in the hands of God, we shall both preserve our faith uninjured, and shall continue without danger; and all Scripture, which has been given to us by God, shall be found by us perfectly consistent; and the parables shall harmonize with those passages which are perfectly plain; and those statements the meaning of which is clear, shall serve to explain the parables; and through the many diversified utterances [of Scripture] there shall be heard one harmonious melody in us, praising in hymns that God who created all things. If, for instance, any one asks, “What was God doing before He made the world? ”we reply that the answer to such a question lies with God Himself. For that this world was formed perfect by God, receiving a beginning in time, **the Scriptures teach us; but no Scripture reveals to us what God was employed about before this event. ** The answer therefore to that question remains with God, and it is not proper for us to aim at bringing forward foolish, rash, and blasphemous suppositions [in reply to it]; so, as by one’s imagining that he has discovered the origin of matter, he should in reality set aside God Himself who made all things.
ANF: Vol. I, Against Heresies, 2:28:3 (Unlike the Romanists, Irenaeus tells us that God, not the Church, gave us the Scriptures, and that if a matter concerning God is not revealed in Scripture, it is because it is beyond the scope of extant revelation.)
 
Rebellion? I don’t think so. Mary was chosen by God to bear His only Son.
She was chosen to serve as the means by which all the Old Testament prophecies concerning the Messiah would be fulfilled. And yet you do not want to believe that Christ actually fulfilled them, because that would require you to accept that Mary is the Messiah’s Gate prophesied by Ezekiel (44:1-3), and therefore that no one but Jesus could have passed through Her.

You can’t have it both ways. Either He fulfilled the prophets, or He didn’t. Which is it?
 
Catholic Marian dogma is puzzling to me based on the fact that the Apostles who knew her, the four Gospel writers, chose to give us scant information about her. The story of Jesus’ birth was written by only Matthew and Luke. She is mentioned when Jesus was twelve and again at the wedding in Cana. Only John specifically mentions her at the scene of the crucifixion and Luke names her as being in the upper room at Pentecost. Beyond that, not much information is provided. No mention of her life after Pentecost.
It is puzzling to you because, unlike the Apostles, “bible alone” Christians limit themselves to the partial written record. As well, you likely do not see Mary as the Theotokos. You likely do not see her as the woman who will crush the serpent’s head in Genesis 3. You likely see no parallel between the ark of the covenant (2 Samuel 6) and Mary as the ark of the new and everlasting coverent (Luke 1&2). You might fail to see the import of her vow to be the “bond slave” of the Lord (Luke 1:38). Why was she with Jesus for all of those 33 years if her “other children” were just hanging around with nothing to do? Why were none of those “other children” at the wedding feast, or at the foot of the cross, since they seemed so worried about Jesus in Matthew 12:47 and Mark 3:31-35? Maybe they weren’t “other children” Maybe, there were no “other children”. Since that phrase does not appear in scripture, is it odd to think that there were none?

The Gospel writers also wrote very sparsely about the life of Jesus (John 20:30, 21:25). They wrote almost nothing about the miracles and teaching that were done in Korazin and Bethsaida - where “most” of Jesus’ miracles were performed (Matthew 11:20-21, Luke 10:13). In three years, that must have been hundreds, if not thousands of teachings and miracles, right? How many of that multitude of divine acts are in scripture? 2. Only two. (Mark 8:22-26, John 5:2-9). Both in Bethsaida. Not a peep about Korazin. Where is the rest? Lost forever? Unimportant?

How much did the Gospel writers include about Joseph, the man whom Jesus chose as His earthly father, the man who would teach him a craft, and about human life? Not a single word that he spoke. They only recorded Mary’s words. Is that puzzling?

But, many say, the bible contains all that is “sufficient” for salvation, right? Yes! If all you want is “sufficient”. But, did Jesus come that we might have life to “sufficency”? No! Life in abundance! (John 10:10). Since scripture is very sketchy on so much of Christ’s life, could it be viewed as the sacred Cliffs Notes of Christ’s life? I mean, every Cliifs Notes contains “sufficient” content from the original writing, correct? You can get the gist of the story from the notes. Well, there’s more to the story - a much richer tapestry, but you will never have it from the bible alone. And, that eventually leads to filling in the blanks and adding to scripture.
The writers of the Epistles omitted her from their teachings as well. By the time the Gospels were written, any dogma regarding Mary should have been formed and written in their inspired writings. Yet, I fail to see any there. And, anything that was written after the Apostles’ writings cannot be considered to be inspired.
After three years, if Jesus was really consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit, you would also think that the Gospel, or at least the epistle writers would have mentioned that. I mean, it’s extremely important! Nope. Not in there. Oh, there are hints of it, but is is not specific. Do you also puzzle over that? There are hints of many things in the bible. They needed further reflection and revelation to the Church to fully develop.
The Gospel writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit to tell us about Jesus, the Son of God. All else paled in comparison to Him. So, no, I am not in rebellion against Christ’s mother. I am consistent with the Apostles’ treatment of her in the Gospels. No more, no less.
You can be in accord only with the Gospel writer’s written treatment of Mary, since you cannot know their personal and spoken treatment of her - Luke, in particular. The rest is unwritten and forever lost to the bible Christian. By limiting yourself to only the fragmentary written record of Mary, you cannot be consistent with God’s treatment of her. Under the Holy Spirit, she is thrice blessed in Luke 1:41-45. She is the only human to ever give flesh to the Son. Jesus chose her to be His own mother (John 1:1-3) Yet, you seem to think that she is common, having lots of other children to raise, taking her time away from Jesus - after she vowed to be the Lord’s “bond slave” You see how this insults by implying that she broke her vow?

As well, you completely ignore the litany of Marian apparitions, Fatima in particular, being documented by the secular press. Witnessed by thousands. And there are many more miracles of intercession. In the Christian age alone, there are 2,000 years of ongoing Marian miracles - miracles that will not cease until we see Him coming on the clouds of heaven. The problem with bible Christianity, and I see it as a big one, is that it completely disregards these same 2,000 years of Christian history and, in doing so, is forced to reverse engineer the early Church. A lot of filling in the blanks occurs. None of these rich, history-filled 2,000 years is available to the bible Christian.

I pray that you will reflect on this just a little.
 
Irenaeus (130 - c. 200):
For by the fact that they thus endeavour to explain ambiguous passages of Scripture (ambiguous, however, not as if referring to another god, but as regards the dispensations of [the true] God), they have constructed another god, weaving, as I said before, ropes of sand, and affixing a more important to a less important question. For no question can be solved by means of another which itself awaits solution; nor, in the opinion of those possessed of sense, can an ambiguity be explained by means of another ambiguity, or enigmas by means of another greater enigma, but things of such character receive their solution from those which are manifest, and consistent and clear.
ANF: Vol. I, Against Heresies, 2:10:1.

Irenaeus (c. 130-200): (Scripture to be interpreted by Scripture)
If, therefore, according to the rule which I have stated, we leave some questions in the hands of God, we shall both preserve our faith uninjured, and shall continue without danger; and all Scripture, which has been given to us by God, shall be found by us perfectly consistent; and the parables shall harmonize with those passages which are perfectly plain; and those statements the meaning of which is clear, shall serve to explain the parables; and through the many diversified utterances [of Scripture] there shall be heard one harmonious melody in us, praising in hymns that God who created all things. If, for instance, any one asks, “What was God doing before He made the world? ”we reply that the answer to such a question lies with God Himself. For that this world was formed perfect by God, receiving a beginning in time, **the Scriptures teach us; but no Scripture reveals to us what God was employed about before this event. ** The answer therefore to that question remains with God, and it is not proper for us to aim at bringing forward foolish, rash, and blasphemous suppositions [in reply to it]; so, as by one’s imagining that he has discovered the origin of matter, he should in reality set aside God Himself who made all things.
ANF: Vol. I, Against Heresies, 2:28:3 (Unlike the Romanists, Irenaeus tells us that God, not the Church, gave us the Scriptures, and that if a matter concerning God is not revealed in Scripture, it is because it is beyond the scope of extant revelation.)
The ‘bible alone’ editorial content reveals the source of this twist. Interpretation is a human trait. Ink and paper cannot interpret. If scripture interpreted scripture we would have protestant unity. On the contrary, it is suffering entropy.
 
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