SPLIT, & Edited Title : Purgatory:A Catholic Second Chance?

[Lampo]

It is a mystery. Holy Orthodoxy does not define such things. You will never understand unless you understand the concept of holy mystery. Just pray and stop trying to define everything. Rome has done enough of that. Sheesh. I do not think you are going to get the answer that you want from me because we are speaking two different languages here. I do not understand your question and you do not understand my answer. Sorry.

In order to continue the dialogue, why don’t you go ahead and tell what you mean by “holy mystery.” If you need clarification on one of his terms, then ask.

 

[Mickey]

You might have seen this before, but I’m going to ask you anyway.

Yes I have seen this simplified RC apologetic many times.

1. Are you perfect now?

No.

1. Will you be perfect in Heaven? (assuming you make it there)

Theosis is ongoing.

1. If you answered “no” to question #1 then “yes” to question #2, how did you become perfect upon entering Heaven?

Not applicable.

I’m just trying to help you understand why Catholics know that Purgatory exists.

I know why Catholics think they know that purgatory exists. It is because the RCC tells them it exists. I was RC for many years. I know the drill. I used to believe in limbo also.

If you already understand what the Church actually teaches but still disagree I’m fine with that.

Thank you brother.

 

[Lampo]

I was RC for many years.

What caused you to leave?

 

[Mickey]

In order to continue the dialogue, why don’t you go ahead and tell what you mean by “holy mystery.” If you need clarification on one of his terms, then ask.

A divine mystery is a truth beyond human reasoning.

 

[Mickey]

What caused you to leave?

I can pm you if you wish–it would derail the thread.

 

[SD_Catholic]

It is a mystery. Holy Orthodoxy does not define such things. You will never understand unless you understand the concept of holy mystery. Just pray and stop trying to define everything. Rome has done enough of that. Sheesh. I do not think you are going to get the answer that you want from me because we are speaking two different languages here. I do not understand your question and you do not understand my answer. Sorry.

Oh but i think you do… I asked you a couple of questions that shouldn’t be that hard to answer even if we can’t fully understand the mysterys of death… How is me asking you simple questions trying to define everything? I think I see your problem, “Rome has done enough of that”…

You tell me to just pray… would you be willing to explain to me how you pray for the dead? Do you pray for them to be in heaven? to get out of hell if they may be in there or what? I’m beginning to think you’re avoiding the question.

Like I said I might not agree with the answer you give, but I’m not here to tell you wether you’re right or wrong… I’m just honestly wondering how you feel your prayers help the souls of the dead.

SD

 

[Fuerza]

I have seen no such support. I have seen a bit of creative interpretation.
I believe the discrepancy lies in the Dormition (falling asleep). The Orthodox believe that Our Lady reposed and was assumed, bodily, into heaven. Roman Catholics do not have to believe that she reposed. Am I correct here?
I remember reading “heterodox”, but I do not recall the word “heretic” being thrown around much. If it was–people would get slapped with disciplinary action.

note: moderators are not very conducive to discussion about the old forum so I will not comment further.

You are correct. Catholics are free to believe either way with regards to her death, although most believe that she did in fact die before being assumed. I won’t press this much further as I feel that I’m derailing the thread, but I find it strange that we have the opposite problem here. In most cases, the Catholic stance is seen as too legalistic. In this case however, where the Church does not feel the need to dogmatically define a particular aspect, it is seen as not legalistic enough by the EO.

 

[SD_Catholic]

It is a mystery. Holy Orthodoxy does not define such things. You will never understand unless you understand the concept of holy mystery. Just pray and stop trying to define everything. Rome has done enough of that. Sheesh. I do not think you are going to get the answer that you want from me because we are speaking two different languages here. I do not understand your question and you do not understand my answer. Sorry.

I just had to laugh a bit when you said I would never understand unless I understand the concept of the holy mystery… I know what you’re trying to say about a mystery, but it kind of seems like saying… i don’t never do that or I’m gonna do a 360 and turn my life around.

SD

 

[Mickey]

but I find it strange that we have the opposite problem here. In most cases, the Catholic stance is seen as too legalistic. In this case however, where the Church does not feel the need to dogmatically define a particular aspect, it is seen as not legalistic enough by the EO.

You guys are all backaward.

The pre-schism Church believed in the Dormition of Our Lady–this is Sacred Tradition and accepted by Holy Orthodoxy. When did Rome begin to allow for the belief that maybe she did not repose?

 

[Lampo]

I can pm you if you wish–it would derail the thread.

Sure. That would be good.

 

[Mickey]

would you be willing to explain to me how you pray for the dead?

Do you want specific prayers. Do want to know my meditations? Pictures of my home chapel? I truly do not understand you.

I’m beginning to think you’re avoiding the question.

You may think what you want–it does not bother me. I pray that God have mercy on their souls. Period.

Like I said I might not agree with the answer you give, but I’m not here to tell you wether you’re right or wrong.

Then you should accept my answer and move on. I have given you the only answer I know.

I’m just honestly wondering how you feel your prayers help the souls of the dead.

And I will tell you one last time. God applies my prayers where and when they need to be applied.

 

[Stephen_C]

Micky,
Just one question, are Orthodox Christian’s open to the belief or something akin to Purgatory? Or as a Orthodox Christian you are to believe/taught there is no (or anything akin to) a Purgatory?

 

[Mickey]

Micky,
Just one question, are Orthodox Christian’s open to the belief or something akin to Purgatory?

It is not something that is contemplated or considered. We work out our theosis on this earth–and it contiues after we repose.

Peace

 

[Mickey]

Christ is Risen!
Indeed He is Risen!

Good people. Tomorrow is the Holy Orthodox feast of the Ascension of Our Lord. Pentecost is just around the corner. It is time for me to retreat into prayer. I am posting this to all the threads on which I have been actively participating. I have enjoyed our discussions. And so I will be leaving for an indefinite period of time.

I know, I know----some of you will be extremely upset that I’m gone.

I will pray for everyone.

Peace and blessings,
Mickey

 

[SD_Catholic]

Do you want specific prayers. Do want to know my meditations? Pictures of my home chapel? I truly do not understand you.
You may think what you want–it does not bother me. I pray that God have mercy on their souls. Period.
Then you should accept my answer and move on. I have given you the only answer I know.
And I will tell you one last time. God applies my prayers where and when they need to be applied.

So basically it is your way of saying that you disagree with purgatory because it is too “Catholic” even though the Orthodox are free to believe in it as well or atleast in some sort of purifying process before heaven.

Obviously it does bother you or you would just answer the question… I can’t accept your answer because you haven’t given one…

I too believe God will apply my prayers where needed or use them how he wishes, but you said you pray for him to have mercy on their souls…

So I’ll ask once again… Since you say you ask for mercy for their souls… where would these souls be that they might need mercy?

SD

 

[Stephen_C]

It is not something that is contemplated or considered. We work out our theosis on this earth–and it contiues after we repose.

Peace

So you are saying that you just don’t know or for that matter not too concerned about this right?

 

[NotWorthy]

It is a mystery. Holy Orthodoxy does not define such things. You will never understand unless you understand the concept of holy mystery. Just pray and stop trying to define everything. Rome has done enough of that. Sheesh.

It’s a good thing nobody ever convinced our good St. Athanasius to do this.

 

[justasking4]

Because the Rich man was in hell not in purgatory.

Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

If a person is in purgatory and you pray to them can they hear your prayer to them there?

 

[justasking4]

Because the Rich man was in hell not in purgatory.

Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

I read your article and i didn’t see you address a number of passages that actually go against the doctrine of purgatory. For example Colossians 2:13-14 speaks of our having all our sins forgiven. This would include sins comitted in ignorance. Notice also that the debt that we owed has been cancelled.

13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The other passage is I John 1:7 --but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin why would there be any need of purgatory?

 

[NotWorthy]

The other passage is I John 1:7 --but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin why would there be any need of purgatory?

I’ll let others handle the first part, but if you break someone’s window through an act of aggression and then go to them for forgiveness which they happily give to their fellow Christian, shouldn’t you pay them back for the broken glass?