SPLIT: Fear of God and authority

[Detales]

Geometer, your retort to Dameedna is naive and petty.

 

[tobias]

1. Pointing to Mythical things in Christianity does point toward questioning what is truth in Christianity and what is myth. But you question nothing, only beg for answers from the false sense of security that the infallibility of the pope and Catholic teaching gives you.
   If you think about it, it’s not that ironic. People who do this are mostly ruled by their EMOTIONS, which cause them to abandon or grasp a belief that gives them hope. Not ironic, just human nature.

Excuse me, but exactly where in Church teaching do you find Santa, or the Easter bunny? There is no expection placed upon children to continue to believe in these things in adulthood. They are merely primers, and done so lightheartedly. If you can’t see that, I must assume you are holding a grudge which is blurring your vision.

And where exactly do you get off assuming I question nothing. I grew up Catholic, left the faith, came to faith in God without witness, but by personal experience and very much study-- questioning everything!! When one sets aside pride, one can submit to authority that Christ set in place. But pride hinders many.

The irony is in that you berate the believer, and lift the unbieliver up for the same thing-- that is irony, or if you prefer–hypocritical.

1. Athiests beliefs somewhat depend upon not seeing and logic that isn’t corrupted by the “God can do anything and thats that” argument. Your belief can’t even go into the senses as you are already fooled by the eucharist trick. Your senses are actually warped so much by what your told that they can tell you your smell/taste/sight/touch is wrong. How can you know that what your hearing isn’t wrong, since your other senses aren’t that good at detecting truth anyways. Think about it.
   And your right, what is taught by catholics is pounded in to people with repetition/mass hysteria/ reiterated prayers and is nothing but a meme. Showing no ground support, just another cultural meme that must be forced and disciplined to over time (not masturbating. celibacy of priests) etc

If I follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion, you too are a fool of your senses if you do not eat meat that you are told by authoritys to be tainted with the ecoli virus since your senses are not able to detect it. Why should you be hindered by what others told you? Let only your senses guide you.

So you can’t come up with a teachiing system that does not use repititoin and reiteration? I didn’t think so.

 

[tobias]

It’s pretty ironic that a Catholic would call someone narrow minded. I guess I’m glad God(if there is one) put all of these things here for you to hate and be annoyed by. Athiesm is not a lack of a belief, it’s a lack of a belief in the supernatural, leaning toward a belief that is more natural and free thinking if used properly. Agnostic is probably the best choice, to quote some guy… “All I am certain about is that there is too much certaintity in the world…”

Go back and read the post I replied to, then my response. Please try to understand the context.

 

[eggsbenedict]

Excuse me, but exactly where in Church teaching do you find Santa, or the Easter bunny? There is no expection placed upon children to continue to believe in these things in adulthood. They are merely primers, and done so lightheartedly.

Santa and the Easter bunny are not in the Church teaching. They are used as demonstrative instruments. One could easily assert that Santa is real, and then demand you prove that he isn’t. It’s an analogy of a position that some theists take.

By calling them primers, are you admitting that you believe that people need to be rewarded in order to act moral? Do they need to think that an imaginary being is watching over them? If you thought that God didn’t exist, would you think that it was okay to live a life of thievery?

If I follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion, you too are a fool of your senses if you do not eat meat that you are told by authoritys to be tainted with the ecoli virus since your senses are not able to detect it. Why should you be hindered by what others told you? Let only your senses guide you.

We have reason to believe that the authorities are telling the truth. We can also prove it, because if we eat the meat (and it’s not thoroughly cooked), we will get sick.

 

[tonyrey]

Whenever I see this kind of reasoning I see a rather strong projection of an individual’s own nature.

 

[tobias]

Santa and the Easter bunny are not in the Church teaching. They are used as demonstrative instruments. One could easily assert that Santa is real, and then demand you prove that he isn’t. It’s an analogy of a position that some theists take.

Most athiests take the same tack, namely- asserting that God does not exist, and demand the theist prove what he says he cannot. One can easily assert anything.

By calling them primers, are you admitting that you believe that people need to be rewarded in order to act moral?

No, I mean primers, as in something a child wishes to believe in, fostering the concept of right reason. Though a child is born a morally capable agent, he/she still needs instruction and direction till right reason is attainable, and even then, does not, in a vacum, retain right reason and morality. If you think it is merely reward and punishment, you neglect the example of selfless giving, freewill offering.

Do they need to think that an imaginary being is watching over them? If you thought that God didn’t exist, would you think that it was okay to live a life of thievery?

Then one will say ‘Do you think we need the imaginary concept of a concience to dictate morality?’
If morality were not an objective truth, which I happen to believe God is the author of, then yes, a life of thievery would be o.k… Why? Not only would adherence be subjective, but also what morality is. How could thievery not be o.k. if not definatively wrong? More to the point, to the original OP, why expect us to live in fear of reprecussion of the law? Shouldn’t we all respect that thievery is not o.k. without the law hanging over our head ready to punish if we do steal, and rewarding us by letting us remain free agents if we do not steal?

We have reason to believe that the authorities are telling the truth. We can also prove it, because if we eat the meat (and it’s not thoroughly cooked), we will get sick.

We too have reason to believe our authorities are telling the truth, 2000+ years of consistent teaching on the matter. Civil authorities on the other hand will tell us one year that global cooling is eminent ('70’s), then later tell us global warming is eminent, and try to change our behavior on the basis of their say-so. Why is dictated fear from civil authorities o.k.? If instilling fear is wrong, then it is wrong from any source.

Soooo, we can, as untrained, unauthoritive individuals, prove the authorities assertion by ignoring them, and dieing. We can also be proven wrong by not partaking of the Eucharist, and dieing the second death.

 

[PJM]

This seems rather presumptuous. I think your fear laden God is perhaps what you need.

You, cannot change without the fear of a God that expects you to.

What about those humans who change, willingly and for a concept bigger than themselves(IE mankind) and do not believe?

Whenever I see this kind of reasoning I see a rather strong projection of an individuals own nature. Without a God to fear, you would do what you want.

It is why so many believers dont’ understand athiests. We actually have the capacity for change, for a greater good even if the good is not absolute, and we do not do it in fear, or for a reward. We do it fundamentlaly as a result of love and a recognition and submission to it.

Quite frankly, we will do what is good, right and will grow, change and admit we are wrong, just for the sheer damn joy of attempting to be decent humans. It brings it’s own rewards. No eternal life required here.

Cheers

OK:shrug: And here is why you do it.

Hebrews Chapter 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,"

Think about this: The reason one fears God is because God in being all and only good perfectly must be, has to be fait and just. Treat everyone the same, judge everyone on what they can and should know; not just what is alctually known:thumbsup:

Love and prayers friend

 

[liquidpele]

Most athiests take the same tack, namely- asserting that God does not exist, and demand the theist prove what he says he cannot. One can easily assert anything.

Of course. Atheists are not making the claim. Remember, atheists don’t say that your God is an abomination or bad or whatever, they say that they want proof or they will assume there is no God just like they assume there are no Unicorns on the moon.

If I said I had a monkey, and you asked to see it, and I said “you can’t prove I don’t have a monkey” you would rightfully be irritated.

A classic explanation can be found here:
godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm

 

[buffalo]

Of course. Atheists are not making the claim. Remember, atheists don’t say that your God is an abomination or bad or whatever, they say that they want proof or they will assume there is no God just like they assume there are no Unicorns on the moon.

If I said I had a monkey, and you asked to see it, and I said “you can’t prove I don’t have a monkey” you would rightfully be irritated.

Sorry - I have heard and read too many atheists who say - How could your God do this or that? How can we believe in a God who - fill in the blank.

Atheists definitely do have a priori expectations - human expectations, but nonetheless expectations.

 

[liquidpele]

Sorry - I have heard and read too many atheists who say - How could your God do this or that? How can we believe in a God who - fill in the blank.

Atheists definitely do have a priori expectations - human expectations, but nonetheless expectations.

Fair enough. Those atheists are immature then, but certainly are still atheists.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

If I said I had a monkey, and you asked to see it, and I said “you can’t prove I don’t have a monkey” you would rightfully be irritated.

But the example of a monkey is trivial in comparison with the example of God. The stakes are extremely high in the case of God, whereas it doesn’t matter if you have a monkey (unless you’re a banana salesman).

A better comparison: A man in a business suit walks up to you and says you have a large inheritance coming to you. He will not show you the papers, but he describes to you that the inheritance is beyond your wildest imaginings.

This comparison is also full of holes, but it gets at how the stakes are rather higher than you implied.

 

[liquidpele]

But the example of a monkey is trivial in comparison with the example of God. The stakes are extremely high in the case of God, whereas it doesn’t matter if you have a monkey (unless you’re a banana salesman).

A better comparison: A man in a business suit walks up to you and says you have a large inheritance coming to you. He will not show you the papers, but he describes to you that the inheritance is beyond your wildest imaginings.

This comparison is also full of holes, but it gets at how the stakes are rather higher than you implied.

What are the stakes exactly? My soul? Well, I don’t believe in that either… perhaps you could show me? Oh right…back to where we started.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

What are the stakes exactly? My soul? Well, I don’t believe in that either… perhaps you could show me? Oh right…back to where we started.

Either our lives have meaning or they don’t. Saying that we create our own life’s meaning is nonsense.

Very few proposals have been to explain why our lives have meaning. God is the most plausible. (This does not mean He exists; it means that it *matters *whether He exists).

 

[liquidpele]

Either our lives have meaning or they don’t. Saying that we create our own life’s meaning is nonsense.

Why is it nonsense? Because you say so?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Why is it nonsense? Because you say so?

Of course not. It’s nonsense, because the very concept of meaning is reference. What does the meaning of my life refer to? My family? But they can die. My job? But I can lose it. My own body? But it can be mangled. My own mind? But I could get a brain injury.

The subjective experience demands an objective ground from which it can reference its own worth. This is objective ground is God, or life is meaningless.

Personally, I’ve had times when I wanted God not to exist. It would have made it easier to do whatever I desired. But I could not find any true meaning apart from God – if I could have, I probably wouldn’t be a Christian.

But you tell me: If you only believe in things you can sense, then how can you find meaning?

 

[geometer]

Geometer, your retort to Dameedna is naive and petty.

Sorry, that you are disappointed. However, love that never knows miracles is naive and petty…

 

[liquidpele]

Of course not. It’s nonsense, because the very concept of meaning is reference. What does the meaning of my life refer to? My family? But they can die. My job? But I can lose it. My own body? But it can be mangled. My own mind? But I could get a brain injury.

The subjective experience demands an objective ground from which it can reference its own worth. This is objective ground is God, or life is meaningless.

Personally, I’ve had times when I wanted God not to exist. It would have made it easier to do whatever I desired. But I could not find any true meaning apart from God – if I could have, I probably wouldn’t be a Christian.

But you tell me: If you only believe in things you can sense, then how can you find meaning?

Well, I disagree with just about all of that.

I’m married, have friends, go out and enjoy myself on vacation, volunteer, donate, laugh, cry, etc. Why do I do it? Why don’t I just kill myself, or start being very selfish in my actions? I don’t (and I believe you don’t for the same reasons whether you accept it or not) because: 1. We’re built that way (evolution) and 2. I have a good life and I’m enjoying it for the most part.

Do I think in a billion years, myself or any memory of me is going to be around? Nope. But for right now, in this reference, I create my own meaning because I’ve decided it’s meaningful to me and I’m still here. To quote something I’ve heard before (not sure who it was): “I didn’t exist for billions of years before my birth, and it didn’t inconvenience me in the slightest”

Would I like to live forever either here or in heaven? Sure. I would also like to fly around like superman, visit other planets, and eat as many chocolate cookies as I want without getting fat. Reality is what it is though.

 

[PJM]

Geometer, your retort to Dameedna is naive and petty.

Hi again dear friend.

Let’s play you’re game differently this time.

You try to prove that God does not exist while I [and others] try to prove that He does.

Love and prayers friend

 

[geometer]

Well, I disagree with just about all of that.

I’m married, have friends, go out and enjoy myself on vacation, volunteer, donate, laugh, cry, etc. Why do I do it? Why don’t I just kill myself, or start being very selfish in my actions? I don’t (and I believe you don’t for the same reasons whether you accept it or not) because: 1. We’re built that way (evolution) and 2. I have a good life and I’m enjoying it for the most part.

Do I think in a billion years, myself or any memory of me is going to be around? Nope. But for right now, in this reference, I create my own meaning because I’ve decided it’s meaningful to me and I’m still here. To quote something I’ve heard before (not sure who it was): “I didn’t exist for billions of years before my birth, and it didn’t inconvenience me in the slightest”

Would I like to live forever either here or in heaven? Sure. I would also like to fly around like superman, visit other planets, and eat as much junk food as I want. Reality is what it is though.

How do you create meaning? I don’t understand what you mean.

 

[liquidpele]

Hi again dear friend.

Let’s play you’re game differently this time.

You try to prove that God does not exist while I [and others] try to prove that He does.

Love and prayers friend

A better game would be that you prove unicorns don’t exist, while I go eat a sandwich