SPLIT: Fear of God and authority

[tjm190]

It is the indisputable authority of Santa that makes us fear Him, and the only way we have to avoid the spectre of this authority is to doubt His existence. If he existed, then we would have to change. I do not disparage the concept of doubting Santa, mind you – I think such doubt is quite natural and reasonable. But I do sometimes question the motives of those who doubt on principle, without ever questioning themselves.

Weak argument is weak

 

[PJM]

=liquidpele;5511232]What are the stakes exactly? My soul? Well, I don’t believe in that either… perhaps you could show me? Oh right…back to where we started.

***Please help us out here friend.

Does fear of authority preceed or follow after fear of God? Or are in no way related?***

 

[liquidpele]

How do you create meaning? I don’t understand what you mean.

… ooookay. I’ll assume you’re being forthright.

I have 2 dogs. They are meaningful to me. I have just created meaning by deciding that they are meaningful to me.

Another example is when I fail at something, I learn, the failure is meaningful because I learn from it. I create meaning because I choose to learn and make something of it.

The problem is that you see meaning as only something that can be linked to God. Because I don’t believe in God, I believe you have created a being that personifies what you find meaning in instead of just saying you find meaning in spirituality or fairness or community or whatever else you attribute to God.

Have you ever thought what an infinite life would be like? I mean, this isn’t something you can even fathom. You’d be doing stuff for an eternity… forever. After doing every single thing possible a trillion times you’d still have eternity still. What meaning is there in that? Conversely, I see much more meaning here because we have so very little time… the time we have becomes important. That, and I know the here and now exists while I’ve seen no indication anywhere ever of anything beyond death or reality.

 

[Detales]

PJM~~“You try to prove that God does not exist while I [and others] try to prove that He does.” You need to clarify your intent here, as I don’t wish to take a hypothetical stand pretrending to believe something. I Know God IS. So what exactly is your point?

 

[PJM]

… ooookay. I’ll assume you’re being forthright.

I have 2 dogs. They are meaningful to me. I have just created meaning by deciding that they are meaningful to me.

Another example is when I fail at something, I learn, the failure is meaningful because I learn from it. I create meaning because I choose to learn and make something of it.

The problem is that you see meaning as only something that can be linked to God. Because I don’t believe in God, I believe you have created a being that personifies what you find meaning in instead of just saying you find meaning in spirituality or fairness or community or whatever else you attribute to God.

Have you ever thought what an infinite life would be like? I mean, this isn’t something you can even fathom. You’d be doing stuff for an eternity… forever. After doing every single thing possible a trillion times you’d still have eternity still. What meaning is there in that? Conversely, I see much more meaning here because we have so very little time… the time we have becomes important.

***So friend, you chose with great personal insite not to believe in God. So being intellegent, posessing common sense and applying logic you are able to convience others that their is no God?

Please enlighnten us.*

Like many I’m on CAF not only to reach and share our Catholic Faith, but also to learn from others such as yourself.

Certainly Catholics do not have a lock on logic, commonsense and wisdom.

Looking forward to what I am sure will be a most interesting responce.

Thanking you in advance.

Love and prayers**

 

[liquidpele]

***So friend, you chose with great personal insite not to believe in God. So being intellegent, posessing common sense and applying logic you are able to convience others that their is no God?

Please enlighnten us.***

Like many I’m on CAF not only to reach and share our Catholic Faith, but also to learn from others such as yourself.

Certainly Catholics do not have a lock on logic, commonsense and wisdom.

Looking forward to what I am sure will be a most interesting responce.

Thanking you in advance.

Love and prayers

I doubt I could convince anyone of anything, especially over an online forum. I believe most of what we believe is from persona experience and searching, not from the arguments of others - although we take them into account from time to time. I’m here for the same reasons you are. I will instead tell you why, and give you understanding of my position instead of the insistence that I am right.

I actually tried to believe in God for a long time… went to church, youth groups… even through college. I say tried because while I desperately wanted to believe, and tried to convince myself over and over, I never really did looking back. I’ve never seen a miracle, I’ve researched the origins of the bible, read most of it (although it’s been a long time), and looked for evidence of life after death. All I’ve found are insistence arguments, misconceptions, misunderstandings, and a lot of evidence that says this is it and there is nothing after this. In short… I’m agnostic by default, because I wasn’t able to substantiate my Christian upbringing with anything that I thought was satisfactory. I do still like the general Christian atmosphere and principals though, I just can’t agree with the extraordinary claims - those have been replaced, for me, by psychology, sociology, geology, paleontology, cosmology, biology, chemistry, physics, and my own experiences.

 

[geometer]

… ooookay. I’ll assume you’re being forthright.

I have 2 dogs. They are meaningful to me. I have just created meaning by deciding that they are meaningful to me.

You discovered that the dogs are meaningful.

…
Another example is when I fail at something, I learn, the failure is meaningful because I learn from it. I create meaning because I choose to learn and make something of it.

Well, you have not shown what you have created…

…
The problem is that you see meaning as only something that can be linked to God. Because I don’t believe in God, I believe you have created a being that personifies what you find meaning in instead of just saying you find meaning in spirituality or fairness or community or whatever else you attribute to God.

You live in your own little world, I guess. Why do think these beliefs, that you have fabricated, have anything to do with what I have said?

…
Have you ever thought what an infinite life would be like? I mean, this isn’t something you can even fathom. You’d be doing stuff for an eternity… forever. After doing every single thing possible a trillion times you’d still have eternity still. What meaning is there in that? Conversely, I see much more meaning here because we have so very little time… the time we have becomes important.

Sure, don’t waste your time, find meaning…

 

[liquidpele]

You discovered that the dogs are meaningful.

Well, you have not shown what you have created…

You live in your own little world, I guess. Why do think these beliefs, that you have fabricated, have anything to do with what I have said?

Sure, don’t waste your time, find meaning…

Haha… it’s quite easy to just dismiss things isn’t it?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I’m married, have friends, go out and enjoy myself on vacation, volunteer, donate, laugh, cry, etc. Why do I do it? Why don’t I just kill myself, or start being very selfish in my actions? I don’t (and I believe you don’t for the same reasons whether you accept it or not) because: 1. We’re built that way (evolution) and 2. I have a good life and I’m enjoying it for the most part.

This makes me curious, partly because I’ve seen you around this philosophy board, and I’ve noticed that you’re very honest – not like some agnostics who act like every thought that ever existed supports their position. I’m wondering why you’re here. I’m here because I’m entering a philosophy grad school (so I want practice reasoning) and I’d be fine if my ideas helped bring someone to believe. Why are you here?

Do I think in a billion years, myself or any memory of me is going to be around? Nope. But for right now, in this reference, I create my own meaning because I’ve decided it’s meaningful to me and I’m still here.

There are some people who don’t see any existential problem of existence, and bully for them. But does the question “what is my purpose?” really hold no weight for you? I think of a human being creating their own purpose as kind of like a chess piece creating its own move – it just doesn’t work. But I do think it may be possible to live your purpose without understanding it.

Reality is what it is though.

Nope. Love is what is. There is nothing apart from love, and “reality” pales in comparison.

 

[PJM]

I doubt I could convince anyone of anything, especially over an online forum. I believe most of what we believe is from persona experience and searching, not from the arguments of others - although we take them into account from time to time. I’m here for the same reasons you are. I will instead tell you why, and give you understanding of my position instead of the insistence that I am right.

I actually tried to believe in God for a long time… went to church, youth groups… even through college. I say tried because while I desperately wanted to believe, and tried to convince myself over and over, I never really did looking back. I’ve never seen a miracle, I’ve researched the origins of the bible, read most of it (although it’s been a long time), and looked for evidence of life after death. All I’ve found are insistence arguments, misconceptions, misunderstandings, and a lot of evidence that says this is it and there is nothing after this. In short… I’m agnostic by default, because I wasn’t able to substantiate my Christian upbringing with anything that I thought was satisfactory. I do still like the general Christian atmosphere and principals though, I just can’t agree with the extraordinary claims - those have been replaced, for me, by psychology, sociology, geology, paleontology, cosmology, biology, chemistry, physics, and my own experiences.

***A very worthy response Thank you.

Have you ever asked yourself, "why me, why now, why here? And then asked how and why?

The greatest proof of God is humanity. Nothing else in creation is both physical matter, and spiritual content. [Non-visible to the eye]

Thee truth is out there, one just needs to persevere in efforts to find it, and then be open to accepting it when “it kicks you up-side you’re head.

Keep in mind that which cannot be disproven, might well be proveable.

---

Searching for truth and seeking truth are not the same. Think abour how they might be different.

Love and prayers

 

[liquidpele]

***A very worthy response Thank you.

Have you ever asked yourself, "why me, why now, why here? And then asked how and why?

The greatest proof of God is humanity. Nothing else in creation is both physical matter, and spiritual content. [Non-visible to the eye]

Thee truth is out there, one just needs to persevere in efforts to find it, and then be open to accepting it when “it kicks you up-side you’re head.

Keep in mind that which cannot be disproven, might well be proveable.

---

Searching for truth and seeking truth are not the same. Think abour how they might be different.

Love and prayers

Who hasn’t asked those questions? Humanity I do not consider proof… I forget the name of the theory (a cosmological one but it applies here), but basically it says that we’re here because we’re here… we were not here the other 100 trillion times and places that we didn’t exist, so obviously the only experience we can have is that we see ourselves here. Is it so fascinating that we can see ourselves?

I wait for the day God is proven… that’s why I’m agnostic after all. You never know!

Seeking and Searching are the same in my vocabulary. I did and still do both external research and also internal “soul searching” for lack of a better term, if that’s what you were referring to.

 

[liquidpele]

This makes me curious, partly because I’ve seen you around this philosophy board, and I’ve noticed that you’re very honest – not like some agnostics who act like every thought that ever existed supports their position. I’m wondering why you’re here. I’m here because I’m entering a philosophy grad school (so I want practice reasoning) and I’d be fine if my ideas helped bring someone to believe. Why are you here?

I like poking believers with a stick… your devotion and beliefs are fascinating to me. It’s becoming a bit of a hobby really. I’m on this specific forum because I happened onto it one day and the general conversation was good. A lot of other Christian oriented forums are nothing but trolls and Christians that think the bible was originally written in english. Also, the atheist forum I frequent gets boring now and then, so I like to break out and get other perspectives.

There are some people who don’t see any existential problem of existence, and bully for them. But does the question “what is my purpose?” really hold no weight for you? I think of a human being creating their own purpose as kind of like a chess piece creating its own move – it just doesn’t work. But I do think it may be possible to live your purpose without understanding it.

Our free will gives us this ability. While I don’t think our free will is quite as free as we think it is (considering the huge list of cognitive bias etc), I do think this allows the chess piece to decide to move so to speak.

Nope. Love is what is. There is nothing apart from love, and “reality” pales in comparison.

So if I love enough, I can stop bullets? Love is a great thing… but next you’ll tell me animals don’t love their young. They aren’t going to heaven though, are they?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I do still like the general Christian atmosphere and principals though, I just can’t agree with the extraordinary claims - those have been replaced, for me, by psychology, sociology, geology, paleontology, cosmology, biology, chemistry, physics, and my own experiences.

Are you sure there are more rational theists than the ones you’ve been hanging around?

I’m not sure what claims of psychology, sociology, geology, paleontology, cosmology, biology, chemistry, or physics conflict with a Christian worldview. Can you tell me which claims you’re talking about?

In all this time in Christian circles, you must have encountered the idea of sin. Do you think it has any validity?

So if I love enough, I can stop bullets?

To slightly adapt the Matrix, you won’t want to.

 

[liquidpele]

Are you sure there are more rational theists than the ones you’ve been hanging around?

I’m not sure what claims of psychology, sociology, geology, paleontology, cosmology, biology, chemistry, or physics conflict with a Christian worldview. Can you tell me which claims you’re talking about?

In all this time in Christian circles, you must have encountered the idea of sin. Do you think it has any validity?

I’m not sure what you mean by the first question.

They don’t conflict. However, for what some theists might claim is a miracle or free will or a soul, I see evidence of it being described in other terms, terms we can understand. That’s all I meant. I fill in the unknown gaps as best I can with science instead of God. Of course, there are still gaps, but I also don’t mind just saying I don’t know or that humanity doesn’t know yet.

I see sin as just the label to action we deem immoral. If you mean “original sin” then no, I don’t think there was some original sin.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I’m not sure what you mean by the first question.

That’s because I totally mistyped it. The word “are” was supposed to be “aren’t”. But the question was silly anyway.

They don’t conflict. However, for what some theists might claim is a miracle or free will or a soul, I see evidence of it being described in other terms, terms we can understand. That’s all I meant. I fill in the unknown gaps as best I can with science instead of God. Of course, there are still gaps, but I also don’t mind just saying I don’t know or that humanity doesn’t know yet.

Interesting. I myself dislike filling gaps in reasoning with God, as if He were a magic argument you could stick in everywhere.

I don’t think that Christianity is all that hard to believe, though. It resonates with the human experience – although I will admit that Buddhism resonates with the human experience almost as well.

But the idea of God is just an extension of the idea of causation – it’s common sense. Everything we see in nature demonstrates cause and effect; you strike a match, and a fire appears. Atheists ask me to *believe *that there is one thing that doesn’t have a cause, and that is the universe. In essence, all exists through chance. They have no alternate theory of the universe’s origin, however, that is at all compelling to the common man.

Still, I have doubts all the time. Faith wouldn’t be faith without uncertainty.

 

[Oreoracle]

…I’ve noticed that you’re very honest – not like some agnostics who act like every thought that ever existed supports their position.

You wouldn’t be talking about me, would you?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

You wouldn’t be talking about me, would you?

No, no, no! You only believe that 8 out of 9 thoughts that ever existed supports your position.

 

[liquidpele]

But the idea of God is just an extension of the idea of causation – it’s common sense. Everything we see in nature demonstrates cause and effect; you strike a match, and a fire appears. Atheists ask me to *believe *that there is one thing that doesn’t have a cause, and that is the universe. In essence, all exists through chance. They have no alternate theory of the universe’s origin, however, that is at all compelling to the common man.

But you already believe in one thing without a cause. I fail to see the difference between saying it’s God, or rolling the causation chain up one link and saying it’s the universe. I myself stick the cause of the universe firmly in “we don’t know yet” territory, but I speculate that the universe probably always existed in some form or another.

 

[Contarini]

This seems rather presumptuous. I think your fear laden God is perhaps what you need.

Yes, it’s extremely presumptuous. Because you don’t in fact know that we have a “fear-laden” God. You assume this either out of your own prejudice or out of your own unfortunate experiences with certain forms of Christianity.

You, cannot change without the fear of a God that expects you to.

Again, this is indeed presumptuous. You don’t know how we can or can’t change. You don’t even know that fear of God helps us change. Maybe if we got rid of fear we would change more effectively? You’re building a lot on some wild assumptions.

And you seem to think that our view of God is as a great taskmaster in the sky shaking His finger at us. That’s certainly not my view.

What about those humans who change, willingly and for a concept bigger than themselves(IE mankind) and do not believe?

What do you mean by “mankind”? Do you mean “a utilitarian calculation of what will do the most good for the most people”? I don’t accept that this is bigger than yourself (obviously it’s quantitatively bigger, but why should that matter or be particularly inspiring?). Or do you mean some kind of idealistic vision of what humans should be? I understand that better, but frankly the history of such visions is even more bloody than that of monotheism (which is saying quite a bit). Why not go with a concept that is really bigger than yourself–bigger even than humanity, but by definition the source of all good and thus incompatible with harm to any being whatsoever?

Whenever I see this kind of reasoning I see a rather strong projection of an individuals own nature. Without a God to fear, you would do what you want.

Then what are you projecting when you make such statements about us?

It is why so many believers dont’ understand athiests.

The lack of understanding appears to be mutual

We actually have the capacity for change, for a greater good even if the good is not absolute,

That would be the one real point of difference between us, I think. I don’t find the idea of a relatively greater good very motivating. And perhaps you are right that this is a flaw in me.

and we do not do it in fear, or for a reward. We do it fundamentlaly as a result of love and a recognition and submission to it.

Sounds like Christianity to me!

Quite frankly, we will do what is good, right and will grow, change and admit we are wrong, just for the sheer damn joy of attempting to be decent humans. It brings it’s own rewards. No eternal life required here.

I agree. It would be nice, but certainly not required.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

But you already believe in one thing without a cause. I fail to see the difference between saying it’s God, or rolling the causation chain up one link and saying it’s the universe.

Because the universe is limited (even if it turns out to be spatially infinite, it is spatially extended and thus limited) and complex. God is by definition infinite and utterly simple. Thus God is a reasonable first cause. It makes no sense to say that the totality of finite things is the cause of finite things.

Edwin