Split from "A question for some Protestants who try to proselytize Catholics": Are Catholic priests "Forbidden to Marry?"

[Tantum_ergo]

Jesus spoke of the discipline when He spoke of those who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom.

AND Jesus did not say, "Oh, by the way, fellows. I want you to be absolutely sure that the book which will be written (though I’m establishing a church, not a book) and which will not be available for the next 350 years and not available to the general public for another 1500 or so after that until you people get your act together, build a printing press, and advocate for general literacy. . .is followed TO THE LETTER. Everything that St. Paul says must be followed exactly. If he says “A bishop must be the husband of only one wife, well by golly that means I want every bishop to be either married or have the opportunity of marrying at ANY TIME.”

So Doki, do the women speak in your church? Do they cover their heads? Are they submissive to their husbands as heads of household? Do they make sure that they do not wear ‘mens’ clothing’ (and of course, that the men don’t wear women’s clothing?" I mean, if you insist that Paul must be followed to the letter, that means EVERYTHING he said. . .including that the woman is the weaker sex, and that she will only be saved through childbearing. Oh, and since slavery is accepted by Paul --I mean proper slavery, not chattel slavery–I’m sure you’re okay with that too. And since the Christians lived in common, with everybody sharing what was necessary,I’m sure that your church does that too. And of course, you do take all your problems to the church to be decided, right? Right? Just as St. Paul required.

 

[jmcrae]

If all priest may get married AND stay a priest, then you are correct.

Those whom we choose for the priesthood have already made a vow of celibacy, at least one year before being chosen for the priesthood.

If all bishops may get married AND stay a bishop, then you are correct.

Bishops are chosen from among priests, who are men that made vows of celibacy at least one year before being chosen for the priesthood.

If all cardinals may get married AND stay a cardinal, then you are correct.

Cardinals are chosen from among the clergy; see above.

If the pope may get married AND stay a pope, then you are correct.

The Pope is chosen from among the Cardinals, who are members of the clergy; see above.

If a seminary student studying for the priesthood may get married and become a priest, then you are correct.

If a seminary student chooses not to make a vow of celibacy at least one year before he is likely to graduate from seminary, he will not be chosen for the priesthood. (If he is already married, it would be against his vows of marriage, to make a vow of celibacy. It would be the height of idiocy to make two contradictory vows to God, would you not agree?)

Question for you: Should a man be allowed to break any vow that he has made before God?

Another question for you: Should any religious organization whatsoever be allowed to set whatever criteria it deems fitting, for its members of clergy (so long as the criteria themselves are not actually illegal in the region where the religious organization is operating), or should religious organizations be forced by the secular society to adhere to “fair hiring laws” including laws against religious discrimination (ie: should Baptists, for example, be forced to hire Muslims as clergy, or any other persons who don’t fit their set standards - and if not, then why should Catholics be forced to conform to Baptist standards)?

 

[PRmerger]

If all priest may get married AND stay a priest, then you are correct.

If all bishops may get married AND stay a bishop, then you are correct.

If all cardinals may get married AND stay a cardinal, then you are correct.

If the pope may get married AND stay a pope, then you are correct.

If a seminary student studying for the priesthood may get married and become a priest, then you are correct.

If not, you are incorrect.

I’ll sleep easy either way.

Dokimas, I ask you to pray about this. Ask God to enlighten your mind, fill your heart and soul with the spirit of truth, and rest on His Word. Pray in your sanctuary of your church, where God may be resting.

And I will do the same and ask Him to show me where I am wrong.

My guess you’ve thought I wasn’t teachable for some time now.

I’ve always been a staunch defender of you (in my mind–not that I’ve had to defend you from any “attacks” by people here. Everyone has been essentially respectful and patient to you, IMHO). I’ve always thought, “Doki just doesn’t understand the Catholic faith. He has nothing against it–he just is questioning.”

But I’m really starting to think you’re just too closed to the truth. And I don’t know why. It doesn’t seem to be part of your righteous spirit to be so obdurate. So I can’t figure it out.

It’s like you come to my home and I’m showing you around and you say, “Why are you letting your 7yr old daughter swim alone out there?” and I respond, “She’s not alone. DH is out there watching her.” And you respond, “Well, why is she swimming alone?” Again I say, “She’s not alone! DH is there!” I keep telling you she’s not alone. I show you she’s not alone. You talk to my DH and see she’s not alone…

And then you leave my house and tell everyone, “PR lets her 7 yr old daughter swim alone”.

You have been shown, over and over, the what and wherefore and whys of your questions, yet you persist in digging your heels in.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Any given person may choose to be married or choose to be single.

Priests in the Latin Rite have freely chosen to be single.

Doki, why are you trying to force people who have freely chosen to be single, into marriage? That isn’t very nice.

 

[PRmerger]

Doki, why are you trying to force people who have freely chosen to be single, into marriage? That isn’t very nice.

Why, I think you’re right, Tantum! Why should Protestants force people who have freely chosen to be single into marriage? Isn’t that contrary to Scripture?

If Protestants have their way: a man who chooses the priesthood is going to be forced to marry!

 

[wmscott]

I don’t care but the CC should care. If Jesus doesn’t force the discipline, Paul and the other NT writers don’t force the discipline, why does or should the CC?

I’ve said the Bible says that celebacy could be a blessing. Paul says for those who can’t be celebate, get married so you won’t sin. Celebacy is more than just physical. It is mental as well if we take Jesus at His word when He said adultery isn’t just physical, but mental (one can commit adultery in the mind).

Let me explain it to you this way for the last time. You stated “the Bible says that celibacy could be a blessing’. I am going to agree with you and even go one step further and say that the Bible “DOES” say that celibacy ”IS” a blessing. I am going to cite the following:

Matthew 19:12
For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs** for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.**

In the end Dokimas my friend, what the Catholic Church is saying, in Her wisdom guided by the Holy Spirit and God given authority, is yes, in the past and in the begging there were married Priests, yes we acknowledge that the Bible does not expressly forbid Priests for being married, But as the Catholic Church grew and evolved from its infancy, lead by the Holy Spirit, our Church Fathers discerned that WE are going to take the higher road by setting the higher standard of celibacy for our Priests for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit leads those who are able to achieve the discipline of celibacy, and the Catholic Church in this spirit of chastity and love for the kingdom of heaven only calls those who are willing and able to be celibate Priests.

I am not sure if you are really interested, but here is the LINK to the Catechism of the Catholic Church that details its teachings with regards to this subject. It is not a long read and does have links to Scriptural references. You might want to save the link in your favorites as a tool for further discussions on other topics so that you can really see what the Catholic Church teaches.

Ending on a positive note, I notice you have moved away from 1 Timothy 4 with regards to this subject, I can only assume that you did read what I provided to you. Good for you. Peace.

 

[Dokimas]

Jesus spoke of the discipline when He spoke of those who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom.

AND Jesus did not say, "Oh, by the way, fellows. I want you to be absolutely sure that the book which will be written (though I’m establishing a church, not a book) and which will not be available for the next 350 years and not available to the general public for another 1500 or so after that until you people get your act together, build a printing press, and advocate for general literacy. . .is followed TO THE LETTER. Everything that St. Paul says must be followed exactly. If he says “A bishop must be the husband of only one wife, well by golly that means I want every bishop to be either married or have the opportunity of marrying at ANY TIME.”

So Doki, do the women speak in your church? Do they cover their heads? Are they submissive to their husbands as heads of household? Do they make sure that they do not wear ‘mens’ clothing’ (and of course, that the men don’t wear women’s clothing?" I mean, if you insist that Paul must be followed to the letter, that means EVERYTHING he said. . .including that the woman is the weaker sex, and that she will only be saved through childbearing. Oh, and since slavery is accepted by Paul --I mean proper slavery, not chattel slavery–I’m sure you’re okay with that too. And since the Christians lived in common, with everybody sharing what was necessary,I’m sure that your church does that too. And of course, you do take all your problems to the church to be decided, right? Right? Just as St. Paul required.

Are you saying the Bible can’t be trusted? Or are you saying ‘let’s through out Paul’?

I’m sure your responding to my questions to someone. Maybe it was you. There was a reason I asked which is lost. I have not seen an answer to my question in context of the questions.

 

[Dokimas]

If a seminary student chooses not to make a vow of celibacy at least one year before he is likely to graduate from seminary, he will not be chosen for the priesthood.

 

[Dokimas]

Forced? Does the RCC also FORCE people to MARRY? Does the Bible also FORCE marriage on people? Is it a FORCED action or a choice by one?

As stated,you simply have an issue with it and frankly what do you care? You’re not even Catholic so how is that chose by others affecting your life?

I don’t think you are comparing like things here.

You think I should become a catholic. There are questions that come up that could keep a person from becoming a catholic. Not questions about salvation or Christianness o) but questions examining practices and teachings whether they are consistent with the Bible.

 

[Dokimas]

[SIGN]Doki: I have no opinion.[/SIGN]

Actually, you do. You have been quite clear in your opinion that the Teachings of the Church are not “all correct”.

Here’s a perfect example of why I have trouble with your posts and comments to me. This is why I say you either don’t understand what I’ve said OR you destort or misrepresent what I’ve said.

This is what you said that I responded, “I have no opinion.”

Quote: Guanophore
This may be more true of Catholics than any other group!

[SIGN]Doki’s reponse: I have no opinion.[/SIGN]

How can I take any of your resonses to me seriously?

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas, I ask you to pray about this. Ask God to enlighten your mind, fill your heart and soul with the spirit of truth, and rest on His Word. Pray in your sanctuary of your church, where God may be resting.

And I will do the same and ask Him to show me where I am wrong.

I’ve always been a staunch defender of you (in my mind–not that I’ve had to defend you from any “attacks” by people here. Everyone has been essentially respectful and patient to you, IMHO). I’ve always thought, “Doki just doesn’t understand the Catholic faith. He has nothing against it–he just is questioning.”

But I’m really starting to think you’re just too closed to the truth. And I don’t know why. It doesn’t seem to be part of your righteous spirit to be so obdurate. So I can’t figure it out.

It’s like you come to my home and I’m showing you around and you say, “Why are you letting your 7yr old daughter swim alone out there?” and I respond, “She’s not alone. DH is out there watching her.” And you respond, “Well, why is she swimming alone?” Again I say, “She’s not alone! DH is there!” I keep telling you she’s not alone. I show you she’s not alone. You talk to my DH and see she’s not alone…

And then you leave my house and tell everyone, “PR lets her 7 yr old daughter swim alone”.

You have been shown, over and over, the what and wherefore and whys of your questions, yet you persist in digging your heels in.

You are correct: I’ve been shown over and over what you and the CC (you and others say the CC teach the things in question). Just saying things over and over and over again doesn’t make them God’s truth. If it did, then we’d be at a standstill because I’ve shown you over and over and over why I think you are incorrect showing you my reasoning from the Bible.

The ‘until’ discussion is a prime example. I acknowledged your verses and your point but you have not yet agreed with my verses (at least not that I’ve seen. If you have, I apologize and would ask you to repost you response of point me to where you responded).

Prayer is wonderful when we pray according to God’s will. However, the Mormons will tell you they read James 1:5 and prayed that the Heavenly Father will give them wisdom. The answer they get is that Joseph Smith is correct.

BTW, what makes you think pray has not gone into the understandings I have. (The correct ones )

 

[Dokimas]

Any given person may choose to be married or choose to be single.

Priests in the Latin Rite have freely chosen to be single.

Doki, why are you trying to force people who have freely chosen to be single, into marriage? That isn’t very nice.

Here we go again. I’ve never said anyone should be force to marry. I’ve agreed that Paul said that celebacy is better but NOT mandated. He also speaks of bishops having one wife each.

Why do you want to force wonderful priests to remain celebate if they’ve realized they should not be? Why do you want to force seminary students heading for priesthood to vow to remain celebate when some, if not many will struggle in their mind and as Paul says should be married. Many you force to decide between celebacy/priesthood and marriage could very well have been wonderful, Spirit filled men of God leading parishes.

 

[Dokimas]

Why, I think you’re right, Tantum! Why should Protestants force people who have freely chosen to be single into marriage? Isn’t that contrary to Scripture?

If Protestants have their way: a man who chooses the priesthood is going to be forced to marry!

WRONG. I hope you’re only deceived in thinking this because the other alternative is a lot worse.

 

[Nicea325]

WRONG. I hope you’re only deceived in thinking this because the other alternative is a lot worse.

The alternative is worse? Why are you so against celibacy? Is it because you are not capable of it,thus you have to bash it or attack it?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Here we go again. I’ve never said anyone should be force to marry. I’ve agreed that Paul said that celebacy is better but NOT mandated. He also speaks of bishops having one wife each.

Why do you want to force wonderful priests to remain celebate if they’ve realized they should not be? Why do you want to force seminary students heading for priesthood to vow to remain celebate when some, if not many will struggle in their mind and as Paul says should be married. Many you force to decide between celebacy/priesthood and marriage could very well have been wonderful, Spirit filled men of God leading parishes.

Ummm. . .wait just a cotton-pickin’ minute.

Tell me, Doki, why do you want to force wonderful men to remain married if they’ve realized they should not be?

Heck, so they took a vow to marry a woman and love, honor, and cherish her until death. But now they realize ==they should not be married. But oh woe and mercy me, that pesky marriage vow-- we are FORCING those poor dear men to STAY MARRIED. Shame, shame.

Now unless you really do feel marriage is not ‘for life’, Doki, I’m sure that you do not think that a man who has made a FREELY CHOSEN VOW TO MARRY has been FORCED to marry simply because, once married, he cannot BREAK the vow and be single.

SO WHY DO YOU NOT PERMIT THE MAN WHO HAS CHOSEN FREELY TO BE CELIBATE TO HONOR HIS VOWS???

 

[PRmerger]

WRONG. I hope you’re only deceived in thinking this because the other alternative is a lot worse.

What? What “alternative” are you talking about that is “a lot worse”?

 

[Dokimas]

I am not sure if you are really interested, but here is the LINK to the Catechism of the Catholic Church that details its teachings with regards to this subject. It is not a long read and does have links to Scriptural references. You might want to save the link in your favorites as a tool for further discussions on other topics so that you can really see what the Catholic Church teaches.

Ending on a positive note, I notice you have moved away from 1 Timothy 4 with regards to this subject, I can only assume that you did read what I provided to you. Good for you. Peace.

BTW, I can accept your reaoning for your churches stance.

I have not finished the ‘article’. It’s here with pen marks as I’m been going through it. When I have more time, I plan on finishing it, making comments and posting my response.

 

[Dokimas]

Ummm. . .wait just a cotton-pickin’ minute.

Tell me, Doki, why do you want to force wonderful men to remain married if they’ve realized they should not be?

Heck, so they took a vow to marry a woman and love, honor, and cherish her until death. But now they realize ==they should not be married. But oh woe and mercy me, that pesky marriage vow-- we are FORCING those poor dear men to STAY MARRIED. Shame, shame.

Now unless you really do feel marriage is not ‘for life’, Doki, I’m sure that you do not think that a man who has made a FREELY CHOSEN VOW TO MARRY has been FORCED to marry simply because, once married, he cannot BREAK the vow and be single.

SO WHY DO YOU NOT PERMIT THE MAN WHO HAS CHOSEN FREELY TO BE CELIBATE TO HONOR HIS VOWS???

The Bible teaches that a man should not divorce his wife. That’s why!!! It does NOT teach he should be celebate if he’s to become a priest. WRONG comparison.

 

[PRmerger]

The ‘until’ discussion is a prime example. I acknowledged your verses and your point but you have not yet agreed with my verses (at least not that I’ve seen. If you have, I apologize and would ask you to repost you response of point me to where you responded).

OhmyGOSH, Doki, I would be the happiest woman on this forum if I had read that you “acknowledged my point”.

All I understood from you was that you were saying that the verse in 2 Samuel could not apply to Mary because Mary did not die. Whatever.

It seemed to me that you have never acknowledged this point, which is crucial:

THERE ARE EXAMPLES IN SCRIPTURE OF THE WORD ‘UNTIL’ MEANING ONLY UP TO A CERTAIN POINT, BUT NOT AFTERWARDS.

I do not believe you have ever acknowledged that.

If you did, could you give me a reference to the post # in which you did this?

 

[Dokimas]

The alternative is worse? Why are you so against celibacy? Is it because you are not capable of it,thus you have to bash it or attack it?

Why aren’t you against misquoting, misrepresenting, misstating what I’ve said. You are doing it again.

I’M NOT against celibacy. In this discussion, IF I’m against anything, I’m against forcing someone to be celebate in order to serve God as a priest.

I’m bashing nothing nor attacking anything. I’m stating my opinion and trying to back it up with Scripture.