Split from "A question for some Protestants who try to proselytize Catholics": Are Catholic priests "Forbidden to Marry?"

[PRmerger]

Would you help by listing what essentials the CC teaches? I looked briefly at your link.

That link I provided is quite a trenchant, eloquent articulation of the Catholic Church’s position on this “essentials” argument.

Basically, there are no essential doctrines–they are all inter-related.

“The truth that God is Love constitutes as it were the apex of all that has been revealed . . . . This truth illumines the whole content of divine revelation” … God is Himself love (1 Jn 4:8), and this love is fully revealed in Jesus Christ." (ibid)

“In fact, the hierarchy of truths is merely the** principle of ordering the mysteries of faith **based on the varying ways they are related [to] one another as elements of Christian revelation, as summarized in the Creed.” (ibid; bold mine)

"“This hierarchy does not mean that some truths pertain to faith itself less than others, but rather that some truths are based on others as of a higher priority, and are illumined by them.” (ibid)

 

[Dokimas]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is our list of “essentials”, as are the dogmas, creeds listed therein.

I really find this question peculiar. Why in the world would I make any kind of judgment about who’s going to heaven or hell? This thought never ever enters my mind when I’m conversing with a person: “Hmmm…this person is hell-bound!”

Now, to be sure, I do believe that to the degree that one accepts the Truth is the degree that they will, in the end, say Yes to the Divine Marriage Proposal, but, really, how do I know what they will do in the end?

Why did the apostles preach the Gospel? What purpose did Jesus come to earth?

Isn’t to seek the lost for the purpose of showing them how to be saved? Isn’t the most important thing helping a person to see their need for Jesus? Salvation verses, then, are the essentials. All other, while extremely important, are secondary to getting a person’s soul on the road to Heaven by faith in Jesus.

BTW, those lists of ‘essentials’, did anyone tell you they were exhaustive? If not, off the top of someones head, I’d bet they’d forget some. Looking at the lists again, there is enough similarity to make your point a nit-picky point. It seems you want to divide not draw close to in the areas of agreement.

I wasn’t asking for you to judge anyone. However, I doubt if you go by an abortion clinic you think, ‘all those in there are on their way to Heaven.’

Why is it always so important for you to try to set people like me ‘straight’? Why is it so important that I get what you get? Are you not judging me? At best, you think I’m less of a Christian than you. That’s not the way you say it, so why not tell me the term for people like me? BTW, you may be correct; I quite possibly may be less of a Christian than you.

 

[Dokimas]

Ok, then!

So you did miss my point entirely. This list–actually 3 different lists–shows that there is no consensus among Protestants about what’s an essential doctrine.

BECAUSE THE BIBLE DOES NOT STATE WHAT’S AN ESSENTIAL DOCTRINE.

Those lists (again, all different!) don’t even mention some very basic things like God creating the world! And, most importantly, that God is LOVE!

Well, since the Bible doesn’t say whether it is or it isn’t, this is a man-made, extra-biblical tradition you’re professing.

We are going around in circles getting no where. Have it your way. There’s no essentials for salvation. Everything is essential. I’m not sure how anyone will make it to Heaven under that possibility but as this discussion has shown, I don’t know much anyway. I guess I’ll just have to rely on the mercy and grace of God.

 

[PRmerger]

We are going around in circles getting no where. Have it your way. There’s no essentials for salvation. Everything is essential. I’m not sure how anyone will make it to Heaven under that possibility but as this discussion has shown, I don’t know much anyway. I guess I’ll just have to rely on the mercy and grace of God.

As a Bible Christian, this must be your position: I cannot know what’s an essential doctrine for salvation, because the Bible does not tell me.

Edit: above should read “As a Bible-only Christian”

 

[jmcrae]

We are going around in circles getting no where. Have it your way. There’s no essentials for salvation. Everything is essential. I’m not sure how anyone will make it to Heaven under that possibility but as this discussion has shown, I don’t know much anyway. I guess I’ll just have to rely on the mercy and grace of God.

Everything that is possible for you, and everything that applies to you, is essential for you. Obviously someone who is already in prison cannot visit the prisoners, but Christ commands His followers to visit the prisoners, so those who can, are required to do this.

Someone converting on his death-bed can’t do very much at all, so not much is required of him, but someone who comes to Christ in childhood has an entire lifetime of possibilities, and therefore, a great deal more is expected of him.

 

[Dokimas]

No, I made no presumption whatsoever about your belief or denial regarding OSAS.

I must have missed the context of your question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanner47
Yes, but as you implied above, if she thinks abortion is a blessing it doesn’t matter as long as she’s saved.

Quote: Originally by PRmerger
Therein lies the truly diabolical nature of the OSAS paradigm. It is this belief that once someone has professed Jesus as their Lord, it doesn’t really matter what one considers a “blessing” or a sin, that was hatched in the gates of the netherworld, IMHO.

Wanner said the first quote to me. You responded by blaming OSAS. Can you see how it seems you were saying my belief in OSAS would subscribe to, ‘that if she (the woman mentioned above) thinks abortion is a blessing it doesn’t matter as long as she’s saved’ and you said it was diabolical.
BTW, I know of no OSAS ‘proclaimers’ that think just because a person professes Jesus to be their Lord that they are indeed a child of God’s. Remember, Jesus said ‘you call Me Lord and I never knew you.’ I think you don’t understand the position of those who have studied OSAS and hold to it.

 

[Dokimas]

Everything that is possible for you, and everything that applies to you, is essential for you. Obviously someone who is already in prison cannot visit the prisoners, but Christ commands His followers to visit the prisoners, so those who can, are required to do this.

Someone converting on his death-bed can’t do very much at all, so not much is required of him, but someone who comes to Christ in childhood has an entire lifetime of possibilities, and therefore, a great deal more is expected of him.

I think you kind of making my point. I was going to mention to JoAnna and PR about death bed conversions, but I thought they’d throw it back at me. I’m glad to brought it up.

 

[PRmerger]

Isn’t the most important thing helping a person to see their need for Jesus?

Do you have a Scripture verse to support this view, Dokimas?

BTW, those lists of ‘essentials’, did anyone tell you they were exhaustive?

If they* were *non-exhaustive, then they were pointless, worthless, meaningless and a reference to nothing at all!

If not, off the top of someones head, I’d bet they’d forget some.

Clearly.

Looking at the lists again, there is enough similarity to make your point a nit-picky point. It seems you want to divide not draw close to in the areas of agreement.

So why don’t you provide a list of your essentials–please make it exhaustive!

 

[PRmerger]

I think you kind of making my point. I was going to mention to JoAnna and PR about death bed conversions, but I thought they’d throw it back at me. I’m glad to brought it up.

What’s wrong with death bed conversions? We put one in the Bible, didn’t we?

 

[Dokimas]

As a Bible Christian, this must be your position: I cannot know what’s an essential doctrine for salvation, because the Bible does not tell me.

Edit: above should read “As a Bible-only Christian”

Can we agree to disagree: the Bible doesn’t tell you but it does, through the Holy Spirit, tell others? I hope you can agree with this.

BTW, we all make mistakes in understanding. I leave room for that in my believe God has made it clear what’s needed to make it to Heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

I wasn’t asking for you to judge anyone. However, I doubt if you go by an abortion clinic you think, ‘all those in there are on their way to Heaven.’

Dokimas, I’ve never once thought that, nor the corollary, “all those people are on their way to Hell.” That’s above my pay grade.

Why is it always so important for you to try to set people like me ‘straight’? Why is it so important that I get what you get? Are you not judging me? At best, you think I’m less of a Christian than you. That’s not the way you say it, so why not tell me the term for people like me? BTW, you may be correct; I quite possibly may be less of a Christian than you.

I’m sorry you see it this way.

It seems very peculiar for you to come to a forum whose primary intent is to discuss Catholicism and provide “Catholic Answers” if you’re going to have a problem with Catholics doing this.

 

[PRmerger]

That’s not the way you say it, so why not tell me the term for people like me?

I call you my brother in Christ. Nothing more, and, certainly, nothing less.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Obviously yes.

DoKmas, If your answer is yes,can you please show me the verse from the bible that will say priest can not marriy,I believe you said OBIVOUSLY yes

 

[PRmerger]

Can we agree to disagree: the Bible doesn’t tell you but it does, through the Holy Spirit, tell others? I hope you can agree with this.

Yes. If by “others” you mean those who hold to the teaching of the Apostles.

BTW, we all make mistakes in understanding. I leave room for that in my believe God has made it clear what’s needed to make it to Heaven.

Ok. So what is it that God has clearly stated is needed to make it to Heaven?

 

[PRmerger]

Wanner said the first quote to me. You responded by blaming OSAS. Can you see how it seems you were saying my belief in OSAS would subscribe to, ‘that if she (the woman mentioned above) thinks abortion is a blessing it doesn’t matter as long as she’s saved’ and you said it was diabolical.

First of all, kudos to you for using the “multi-quote” feature! I just learned about that myself, despite being on the CAFs a long time.

To answer your question: I was not addressing you at all on that post. I was just saying that those who subscribe to the OSAS paradigm have no argument against women like Ms. Ragsdale who have professed belief in Jesus as Savior yet espouse demonic ideals.

BTW, I know of no OSAS ‘proclaimers’ that think just because a person professes Jesus to be their Lord that they are indeed a child of God’s. Remember, Jesus said ‘you call Me Lord and I never knew you.’ I think you don’t understand the position of those who have studied OSAS and hold to it.

Perhaps you are right.

It’s a similar misunderstanding that non-Catholics have levelled against Catholics–they accuse Catholics of thinking, “Hey, I can commit any mortal sin I want because all I have to do is go to confession in the morning!”

 

[Dokimas]

DoKmas, If your answer is yes,can you please show me the verse from the bible that will say priest can not marriy,I believe you said OBIVOUSLY yes

There is no verse I’m aware of that priest can not marry. I think the Bible teaches it would be better for them not to be married but it is NOT a prerequisit for priesthood. The CC seems to teach in practice that it is a prerequisit. Sure the CC has one or more exceptions.

 

[Dokimas]

First of all, kudos to you for using the “multi-quote” feature! I just learned about that myself, despite being on the CAFs a long time.

To answer your question: I was not addressing you at all on that post. I was just saying that those who subscribe to the OSAS paradigm have no argument against women like Ms. Ragsdale who have professed belief in Jesus as Savior yet espouse demonic ideals.

So you see how I concluded you were speaking of me as that was the context which you must have missed?

It’s a similar misunderstanding that non-Catholics have levelled against Catholics–they accuse Catholics of thinking, “Hey, I can commit any mortal sin I want because all I have to do is go to confession in the morning!”

I’m sure that’s not a teaching of the CC but I’m also sure, from experiece with some catholics, that’s that what they think. Let me clarify, maybe not mortal sin but the lesser sins.

 

[Dokimas]

Ok. So what is it that God has clearly stated is needed to make it to Heaven?

Wasn’t it you that mentioned Acts 16:31? I’d say that’s a good place to start. But do we really want to continue this discussion? We aren’t getting anywhere, IMO, unless you agree with Acts 16:31

 

[Dokimas]

Yes. If by “others” you mean those who hold to the teaching of the Apostles.

QUOTE]

So there is a list from the Bible that the apostles wrote about?

 

[PRmerger]

So you see how I concluded you were speaking of me as that was the context which you must have missed?

Yes.

I’m sure that’s not a teaching of the CC but I’m also sure, from experiece with some catholics, that’s that what they think. Let me clarify, maybe not mortal sin but the lesser sins.

And I’m sure that those OSAS Christians who *don’t *profess, “All you need to be saved is to call on Jesus’ name, and you can sin all you want” use this as an excuse:

“Well, he was never really saved in the first place”. :banghead: