Split from "A question for some Protestants who try to proselytize Catholics": Are Catholic priests "Forbidden to Marry?"

[PRmerger]

Have you been following this conversation?

Do I believe OSAS?

I don’t believe we’ve ever discussed OSAS. But I presume, from the fact that you asked, that you *don’t *believe in it. Yet OSAS-suppporters will quote Scripture verses to support their paradigm, and claim that they were led to this belief by the holy Spirit.

So, again, we’ve proved our point–how can the HS lead you to deny OSAS, yet another sincere, prayerful Christian will read the very same Bible and come to a profession of OSAS?

 

[PRmerger]

Also, where in the Bible does it say that there are “non-essential” teachings?

See one of PR’s posts some where on this board.

Again, I did *not *cite a list of “where in the Bible” it says “that there are ‘non-essential’ teachings”.

To the contrary, in fact. My posting was quite clear that THE BIBLE DOES NOT MAKE A LIST OF ESSENTIALS AND NON-ESSENTIALS.

Please do not continue to spread this falsehood.

You are using my name in vain, and I do. not. like. it.

 

[wanner47]

Your church teaches it if they accept that there are non-catholic Christians.

Of course the Church teaches that there are non-Catholic Christians. What the Church doesn’t teach is that all non-Catholic Christians will be saved by virtue of their belief in Christ. Big difference.

I get tempted to ignore foolish statements like these. There’s not one thing I’ve ever said on CAF or in the post you are quoting that anyone like you could or should think I think sin is okay. The only thing I can think of is that you are motivated to read into what I say wrong things because you want me to be wrong.

I think it’s more that you don’t understand the logical conclusion of your thought process. If salvation is the only essential and every thing else is a non-essential, then that everything else includes adultery, fornication, idolatry, etc. If these things are non-essential to salvation, then it shouldn’t matter if we do them or not as long as we are saved.

Once saved always saved verses the oposite are NOT essentials. It’s up to God. BTW, baptist I know agree with your definition of ‘salvation’. I agree too.

But OSAS is about salvation, and salvation is an essential. Baptists do not agree with the Catholic Church in terms of salvation. They say that salvation is by faith alone; the Catholic Church disagrees.

Nice use of sarcasm.

Nice way to avoid the point.

I guess you don’t read my posts too often. I’ve said I’m sure I don’t understand all, or maybe even many, things correctly. So, you’re speaking to yourself, not to me. I already am aware of this for myself. I doubt you are aware of this for you and your church.

It’s funny, because throughout the conversation on this thread and the other, you seem to insist that your understanding of things – e.g., priestly celibacy – is 100% correct whereas the CC is wrong. Pot, meet kettle?

You’re deceiving yourself. I’ve implied NO such thing.

See above.

Good question.

I notice you did not answer it.

Thanks for your opinion. Remember your opinion could be incorrect.

As could be yours. At least mine is based in logic.

Deceiving yourself again. I said NO such thing. Does it make it easier coming against me to believe untruths about what I’m saying?

The problem is that you don’t understand the logical conclusion of your own beliefs.

Another silly question.

Which you won’t (can’t?) answer.

Just what it says. What it DOES NOT say is that we’ll always follow correctly.

EXACTLY! You’ve just described the Protestant Reformation!

Christ does lead us into all Truth, and he’s established a Church with which to do so. Unfortunately, Christians don’t always follow the Church correctly (including, even, some bishops and Popes) and sometimes turn away from it completely.

Do you obey your husband as Peter and Paul told you to? Do you cover your head as Paul told you to? Do you cover yourself modestly even when going swimming?

Do I submit to my husband as head of our household? Yes, indeedy. In all things, I follow what the Church teaches about them.

But you’re avoiding the question. Why would Paul bother to talk about these “non-essentials” to Timothy if salvation was all that was essential? Writing materials were costly and rare back then, and I doubt Paul would waste them writing about something unimportant and non-essential.

It’s called a ‘Worship Service’. They are all worship. BTW, it wasn’t an exhaustive list, silly person.

That’s why I said worship was the PRIMARY purpose. It should have been first on the list. Everything else is just details.

 

[Dokimas]

Yes, of course I have a “good list”! It’s a “list of essentials” called the “hierarchy of truths” professed by the CC.

However, if one goes by the Bible Alone, then one cannot determine what’s an essential and what’s a non-essential doctrine. One needs the CC’s authority for this.

If you are referring to this posting, where I cited different Protestant poster’s opinions of what’s essential, then you missed my point. This is not **a **list of essentials, but many lists of *different *essentials…demonstrating that Protestants cannot agree, from the Bible alone, what is an essential. Q.E.D.

I said you had a good list. I did not know about the CC document you spoke of. How did I come up with the same ideas. I only had the Bible and the Holy Spirit and former teachings from many good teachings from my past. At least I’m hoping the Holy Spirit was helping me understand.​

Being a non-catholic Christian and having been to many different types of churches, I assure you the list of essentials are quite similar in most if not all churches I’ve experienced.

 

[Dokimas]

I don’t believe we’ve ever discussed OSAS. But I presume, from the fact that you asked, that you *don’t *believe in it. Yet OSAS-suppporters will quote Scripture verses to support their paradigm, and claim that they were led to this belief by the holy Spirit.

So, again, we’ve proved our point–how can the HS lead you to deny OSAS, yet another sincere, prayerful Christian will read the very same Bible and come to a profession of OSAS?

You missed my point. Did you assume I believed OSAS? If so why?

IMO, you’re beating a dead horse. Not only that, but if you’re trying to convince me you’re correct, may I suggest you try a different tactic. The more you try in this manner, the more you loose me. FYI only.

 

[Dokimas]

Again, I did *not *cite a list of “where in the Bible” it says “that there are ‘non-essential’ teachings”.

To the contrary, in fact. My posting was quite clear that THE BIBLE DOES NOT MAKE A LIST OF ESSENTIALS AND NON-ESSENTIALS.

Please do not continue to spread this falsehood.

You are using my name in vain, and I do. not. like. it.

What was the list you were referencing? I guess I missed it. Could you clear this up for me? Thank you.

If I’m spreading a false understanding, I’d like to apologize. So please help me understand. Again, thank you.

 

[PRmerger]

What was the list you were referencing? I guess I missed it. Could you clear this up for me? Thank you.

If I’m spreading a false understanding, I’d like to apologize. So please help me understand. Again, thank you.

Let’s start again. What list are *you *referring to, that I had posted?

Is it this one?

**Primary Essentials:

Diety of Christ – John 8:24, John 8:58 + Exodus 3:14.
Salvation by Grace – Gal 5:4, Eph 2:8-9
Resurrection of Christ – 1 Cor 15:14, 1 Cor 15:17
Gospel – Gal 1:8-9, 1 Cor 15:1-4
Monotheism – Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6,8, Exodus 20:3-6

Secondary Essentials:

Salvation – John 14:6
Trinity – John 3:16, John 5:26, 1 John 4:10, John 14:26, 15:26, Isaiah 44:24, Gal 3:13, Rom 15:16
Incarnation through Virgin Birth – Matt 1:23, John 8:24

yet another Protestant poster provided a completely different list of essential (with completely different Scripture verses):

“1) Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
2) Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
3) Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
4) The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).
5) There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)
6) God exists as a Trinity of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (1 John 5:7)
7) Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary (nature of incarnation)
8) Jesus is the only way to God the Father (John 14:6).”

and yet another Protestant poster has reduced the list of essentials to (inexplicably) “5 fundamentals”:

The inspiration of the Bible by the Holy Spirit and the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of this.
The virgin birth of Christ.
The belief that Christ’s death was an atonement for sin.
The bodily resurrection of Christ.
The historical reality of Christ’s miracles.

INCIDENTALLY, I noticed that not a single Protestant I cited listed Acts 16: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Nor did they put that it’s an essential to believe that God created the world out of nothing; that we are sinners; that we must forgive others; that we must feed the hungry and clothe the naked;

and…the most egregious oversight IMHO…

that God is LOVE.

However, putting those things as “essential” doctrines is merely my opinion, for there are no Scripture verses that tell us that it is essential to believe that we are sinners, must forgive others, etc etc etc. **

 

[Dokimas]

JoAnn,

Adulterers, idoloters and fornicators aren’t saved. I’m not speaking of those that fall into temptation but those who practice such things with no consciousness that it’s wrong.

 

[Dokimas]

Let’s start again. What list are *you *referring to, that I had posted?

Is it this one?

**Primary Essentials:

Diety of Christ – John 8:24, John 8:58 + Exodus 3:14.
Salvation by Grace – Gal 5:4, Eph 2:8-9
Resurrection of Christ – 1 Cor 15:14, 1 Cor 15:17
Gospel – Gal 1:8-9, 1 Cor 15:1-4
Monotheism – Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6,8, Exodus 20:3-6

Secondary Essentials:

Salvation – John 14:6
Trinity – John 3:16, John 5:26, 1 John 4:10, John 14:26, 15:26, Isaiah 44:24, Gal 3:13, Rom 15:16
Incarnation through Virgin Birth – Matt 1:23, John 8:24

yet another Protestant poster provided a completely different list of essential (with completely different Scripture verses):

“1) Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
2) Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
3) Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
4) The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).
5) There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)
6) God exists as a Trinity of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (1 John 5:7)
7) Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary (nature of incarnation)
8) Jesus is the only way to God the Father (John 14:6).”

and yet another Protestant poster has reduced the list of essentials to (inexplicably) “5 fundamentals”:

The inspiration of the Bible by the Holy Spirit and the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of this.
The virgin birth of Christ.
The belief that Christ’s death was an atonement for sin.
The bodily resurrection of Christ.
The historical reality of Christ’s miracles.

INCIDENTALLY, I noticed that not a single Protestant I cited listed Acts 16: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Nor did they put that it’s an essential to believe that God created the world out of nothing; that we are sinners; that we must forgive others; that we must feed the hungry and clothe the naked;

and…the most egregious oversight IMHO…

that God is LOVE.

However, putting those things as “essential” doctrines is merely my opinion, for there are no Scripture verses that tell us that it is essential to believe that we are sinners, must forgive others, etc etc etc. **

I believe this is the list. Thank you.

All true Christians I know hold to the fact that all have sinned. Don’t you call us on that one often? All I know teach we are to forgive if we are expecting God to forgive us (the Lord’s Prayer). I know Christians that have feed the hungry and clothed the naked. I wonder what people you are getting your info form?

While I believe the God made all out of nothing, I don’t believe it’s essential for salvation. I also believe God did it in 6 days.

It’s been my priviledge to use Act 16:31 in the past while trying to share the Gospel of Jesus with others.

This looks like the list. Was this the only one you posted under this topic? If so, then yes. If not, then maybe not.

 

[Dokimas]

Yes, of course I have a “good list”! It’s a “list of essentials” called the “hierarchy of truths” professed by the CC.

However, if one goes by the Bible Alone, then one cannot determine what’s an essential and what’s a non-essential doctrine. One needs the CC’s authority for this.

If you are referring to this posting, where I cited different Protestant poster’s opinions of what’s essential, then you missed my point. This is not **a **list of essentials, but many lists of *different *essentials…demonstrating that Protestants cannot agree, from the Bible alone, what is an essential. Q.E.D.

Would you help by listing what essentials the CC teaches? I looked briefly at your link. I was confused. Could you help? Maybe we should start a new thread for this?

How do you know some of us are heading to Heaven and how do you know some of us aren’t. What about us makes it clear we are or are not heading to Heaven?

 

[wanner47]

JoAnn,

Adulterers, idoloters and fornicators aren’t saved. I’m not speaking of those that fall into temptation but those who practice such things with no consciousness that it’s wrong.

It’s JoAnna.

And if those who have no consciousness that it’s wrong sincerely believe that Jesus Christ is their Savior? What then?

 

[Dokimas]

PR,

You brought up Acts 16:31. How important is calling upon the Name of the Lord for salvation?

 

[Dokimas]

It’s JoAnna.

And if those who have no consciousness that it’s wrong sincerely believe that Jesus Christ is their Savior? What then?

Sorry about missing your name.

Do you know anyone that you’d say really, really, really know Jesus as their Savior and has no consciousness they should not commit adultery or worship anything else but Jesus?

It not, then why the question? If you do, do you think they are heading to Heaven?

 

[PRmerger]

Being a non-catholic Christian and having been to many different types of churches, I assure you the list of essentials are quite similar in most if not all churches I’ve experienced.

Did you read the list of supposed “essentials” I posted? [SIGN1]They are all different.[/SIGN1]

Which list of essentials do you agree with?

This one:

“1) Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
2) Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
3) Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
4) The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).
5) There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)
6) God exists as a Trinity of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (1 John 5:7)
7) Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary (nature of incarnation)
8) Jesus is the only way to God the Father (John 14:6).”

or this one?

The inspiration of the Bible by the Holy Spirit and the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of this.
The virgin birth of Christ.
The belief that Christ’s death was an atonement for sin.
The bodily resurrection of Christ.
The historical reality of Christ’s miracles.

or this one?

Primary Essentials:

Diety of Christ – John 8:24, John 8:58 + Exodus 3:14.
Salvation by Grace – Gal 5:4, Eph 2:8-9
Resurrection of Christ – 1 Cor 15:14, 1 Cor 15:17
Gospel – Gal 1:8-9, 1 Cor 15:1-4
Monotheism – Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6,8, Exodus 20:3-6

 

[PRmerger]

Sorry about missing your name.

Do you know anyone that you’d say really, really, really know Jesus as their Savior and has no consciousness they should not commit adultery or worship anything else but Jesus?

It not, then why the question? If you do, do you think they are heading to Heaven?

That woman, Katherine Ragsdale, is a very good example. She is part of the Episcopal clergy. She has professed to Jesus as her savior. Yet she believes abortion is a blessing.

As for whether she is heading to heaven or not…it is forbidden for Catholics to declare any one of our brethren condemned to hell. Really, how would we know?

 

[wanner47]

Sorry about missing your name.

Do you know anyone that you’d say really, really, really know Jesus as their Savior and has no consciousness they should not commit adultery or worship anything else but Jesus?

It not, then why the question? If you do, do you think they are heading to Heaven?

It doesn’t matter who I know. If adultery et al aren’t essentials, then they have no bearing on salvation. If they have no bearing on salvation, Christians should be able to do them all they want with no eternal consequences.

This is where your beliefs logically follow, Dokimas.

 

[PRmerger]

PR,

You brought up Acts 16:31. How important is calling upon the Name of the Lord for salvation?

Very important!

Yet, peculiarly, it’s not on any of those Protestant poster’s opinions of what’s essential.

 

[PRmerger]

Would you help by listing what essentials the CC teaches? I looked briefly at your link. I was confused. Could you help? Maybe we should start a new thread for this?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is our list of “essentials”, as are the dogmas, creeds listed therein.

How do you know some of us are heading to Heaven and how do you know some of us aren’t. What about us makes it clear we are or are not heading to Heaven?

I really find this question peculiar. Why in the world would I make any kind of judgment about who’s going to heaven or hell? This thought never ever enters my mind when I’m conversing with a person: “Hmmm…this person is hell-bound!”

Now, to be sure, I do believe that to the degree that one accepts the Truth is the degree that they will, in the end, say Yes to the Divine Marriage Proposal, but, really, how do I know what they will do in the end?

 

[PRmerger]

You missed my point. Did you assume I believed OSAS? If so why?.

No, I made no presumption whatsoever about your belief or denial regarding OSAS.

 

[PRmerger]

I believe this is the list. Thank you.

Ok, then!

So you did miss my point entirely. This list–actually 3 different lists–shows that there is no consensus among Protestants about what’s an essential doctrine.

BECAUSE THE BIBLE DOES NOT STATE WHAT’S AN ESSENTIAL DOCTRINE.

Those lists (again, all different!) don’t even mention some very basic things like God creating the world! And, most importantly, that God is LOVE!

While I believe the God made all out of nothing, I don’t believe it’s essential for salvation

Well, since the Bible doesn’t say whether it is or it isn’t, this is a man-made, extra-biblical tradition you’re professing.