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Split from "A question for some Protestants who try to proselytize Catholics": Are Catholic priests "Forbidden to Marry?"
- Status
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Dokimas
Guest
From WMScott
1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions
2 through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences.
3 They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving,
Now let’s look at the footnotes associated with this citation:
[1-5] Doctrinal deviations from the true Christian message within the church have been prophesied, though the origin of the prophecy is not specified (1 Tim 4:1-2); cf Acts 20:29-30. The letter warns against a false asceticism that prohibits marriage and regards certain foods as forbidden, though they are part of God’s good creation (1 Tim 4:3).
Further, let’s understand the definition of asceticism:
as•cet•i•cism
–noun
Ver. 3. Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, &c. Here says St. Chrysostom[1] are foretold and denoted the heretics called Encratites, the Marcionites, Manicheans, &c. who condemned all marriages as evil, as may be seen in St. Irenæus, Epiphanius, St. Augustine, Theodoret, &c. These heretics held a god who was the author of good things, and another god who was the author or cause of all evils; among the latter they reckoned, marriages, fleshmeats, wine, &c. The doctrine of Catholics is quite different, when they condemn the marriages of priests and of such as have made a vow to God to lead always a single life; or when the Church forbids persons to eat flesh in Lent, or on fasting-days, unless their health require it. We hold that marriage in itself is not only honourable, but a sacrament of divine institution. We believe and profess that the same only true God is the author of all creatures which are good of themselves; that all eatables are to be eaten with thanksgiving, and none of them to be rejected, as coming from the author of evil. When we condemn priests for marrying, it is for breaking their vows and promises made to God of living unmarried, and of leading a more perfect life; we condemn them with the Scripture, which teaches us that vows made are to be kept; with St. Paul, who in the next chap. (ver. 12) teaches us, that they who break such vows incur their damnation. When the Church, which we are commanded to obey, enjoins abstinence from flesh, or puts a restraint as to the times of eating on days of humiliation and fasting, it is by way of self-denial and mortification: so that it is not the meats, but the transgression of the precept, that on such occasions defiles the consciences of the transgressors. “You will object, (says St. Chrysostom) that we hinder persons from marrying; God forbid,” &c. St. Augustine, (lib. 30. contra Faustum. chap. vi.) “You see (says he) the great difference in abstaining from meats for mortification sake, and as if God was not the author of them.” We may observe that God, in the law of Moses, prohibited swine’s flesh and many other eatables; and that even the apostles, in the Council of Jerusalem, forbad the Christians, (at least about Antioch) to eat at that time blood and things strangled; not that they were bad of themselves, as the Manicheans pretended. (Witham) — St. Paul here speaks of the Gnostics and other ancient heretics, who absolutely condemned marriage and the use of all kind of meat, because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle: whereas the Church of God so far from condemning marriage, holds it to be a holy sacrament, and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever, in proper times and seasons, though she does not judge all kinds of diet proper for days of fasting and penance. (Challoner) — We may see in the earliest ages[centuries] of Christianity, that some of the most infamous and impure heretics that ever went out of the Church, condemned all marriage as unlawful, at the same time allowing the most unheard of abominations: men without religion, without faith, without modesty, without honour. See St. Clement of Alexandria, lib. 3. Strom.
[SIGN]So I guess I have to ask Dokimas where do you come up with forced fasting stuff? I just do not see it, and if you really read all of this how can you tell me anything other than what was just put into perspective. To walk away with any other take is basically just arguing for arguments sake and anti-Catholic sentiments.[/SIGN]
1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions
2 through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences.
3 They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving,
Now let’s look at the footnotes associated with this citation:
[1-5] Doctrinal deviations from the true Christian message within the church have been prophesied, though the origin of the prophecy is not specified (1 Tim 4:1-2); cf Acts 20:29-30. The letter warns against a false asceticism that prohibits marriage and regards certain foods as forbidden, though they are part of God’s good creation (1 Tim 4:3).
Further, let’s understand the definition of asceticism:
as•cet•i•cism
–noun
- the manner of life, practices, or principles of an ascetic.
- the doctrine that a person can attain a high spiritual and moral state by practicing self-denial, self-mortification, and the like.
- rigorous self-denial; extreme abstinence; austerity.
Ver. 3. Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, &c. Here says St. Chrysostom[1] are foretold and denoted the heretics called Encratites, the Marcionites, Manicheans, &c. who condemned all marriages as evil, as may be seen in St. Irenæus, Epiphanius, St. Augustine, Theodoret, &c. These heretics held a god who was the author of good things, and another god who was the author or cause of all evils; among the latter they reckoned, marriages, fleshmeats, wine, &c. The doctrine of Catholics is quite different, when they condemn the marriages of priests and of such as have made a vow to God to lead always a single life; or when the Church forbids persons to eat flesh in Lent, or on fasting-days, unless their health require it. We hold that marriage in itself is not only honourable, but a sacrament of divine institution. We believe and profess that the same only true God is the author of all creatures which are good of themselves; that all eatables are to be eaten with thanksgiving, and none of them to be rejected, as coming from the author of evil. When we condemn priests for marrying, it is for breaking their vows and promises made to God of living unmarried, and of leading a more perfect life; we condemn them with the Scripture, which teaches us that vows made are to be kept; with St. Paul, who in the next chap. (ver. 12) teaches us, that they who break such vows incur their damnation. When the Church, which we are commanded to obey, enjoins abstinence from flesh, or puts a restraint as to the times of eating on days of humiliation and fasting, it is by way of self-denial and mortification: so that it is not the meats, but the transgression of the precept, that on such occasions defiles the consciences of the transgressors. “You will object, (says St. Chrysostom) that we hinder persons from marrying; God forbid,” &c. St. Augustine, (lib. 30. contra Faustum. chap. vi.) “You see (says he) the great difference in abstaining from meats for mortification sake, and as if God was not the author of them.” We may observe that God, in the law of Moses, prohibited swine’s flesh and many other eatables; and that even the apostles, in the Council of Jerusalem, forbad the Christians, (at least about Antioch) to eat at that time blood and things strangled; not that they were bad of themselves, as the Manicheans pretended. (Witham) — St. Paul here speaks of the Gnostics and other ancient heretics, who absolutely condemned marriage and the use of all kind of meat, because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle: whereas the Church of God so far from condemning marriage, holds it to be a holy sacrament, and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever, in proper times and seasons, though she does not judge all kinds of diet proper for days of fasting and penance. (Challoner) — We may see in the earliest ages[centuries] of Christianity, that some of the most infamous and impure heretics that ever went out of the Church, condemned all marriage as unlawful, at the same time allowing the most unheard of abominations: men without religion, without faith, without modesty, without honour. See St. Clement of Alexandria, lib. 3. Strom.
[SIGN]So I guess I have to ask Dokimas where do you come up with forced fasting stuff? I just do not see it, and if you really read all of this how can you tell me anything other than what was just put into perspective. To walk away with any other take is basically just arguing for arguments sake and anti-Catholic sentiments.[/SIGN]
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Dokimas
Guest
Finally, let’s see what the Catholic Church teaches:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church.
.
Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 4
1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.
Footnote References
23 Cf. Joel 2:12-13; Isa 1:16-17; Mt 6:1-6; 16-18.
CITED TEXT:
Joel 2:12-13
“Yet even now,” says the Lord,
“return to me with all your heart,
with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning;
and rend your hearts and not your garments.”
Return to the Lord, your God,
for he is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love,
and repents of evil.
Isaiah 1:16-17
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
defend the fatherless,
plead for the widow.
Matthew 6:1-6
Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
Matthew 6:16-18
And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you
The Catechism of the Catholic Church.
.
Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 4
1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.
Footnote References
23 Cf. Joel 2:12-13; Isa 1:16-17; Mt 6:1-6; 16-18.
CITED TEXT:
Joel 2:12-13
“Yet even now,” says the Lord,
“return to me with all your heart,
with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning;
and rend your hearts and not your garments.”
Return to the Lord, your God,
for he is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love,
and repents of evil.
Isaiah 1:16-17
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
defend the fatherless,
plead for the widow.
Matthew 6:1-6
Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
Matthew 6:16-18
And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you
D
Dokimas
Guest
Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 5
1434 The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, 31 which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one’s neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one’s neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity “which covers a multitude of sins.” 32
Footnote References
31 Cf. Tob 12:8; Mt 6:1-18.
32 I Pet 4:8; Cf. Jas 5:20.
CITED TEXT:
Tobit 12:8
Prayer is good when accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than much with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to treasure up gold.
Matthew 6:1-18
Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this:
Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
1 Peter 4:8
Above all hold unfailingly your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.
James 5:20
let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
1434 The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, 31 which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one’s neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one’s neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity “which covers a multitude of sins.” 32
Footnote References
31 Cf. Tob 12:8; Mt 6:1-18.
32 I Pet 4:8; Cf. Jas 5:20.
CITED TEXT:
Tobit 12:8
Prayer is good when accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than much with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to treasure up gold.
Matthew 6:1-18
Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this:
Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
1 Peter 4:8
Above all hold unfailingly your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.
James 5:20
let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
N
Nicea325
Guest
Matt19:11 But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. 12"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”
Some have been given the spirtual gift of celibacy in order for the sake of serving God.
Likewise, the very same Bible also states: Jesus indicates that remaining unmarried is only for a few people.
Actually,you are incorrect,it is very applicable to celibacy. Even my NKJV Study Bible states the following on the above scriptural passages:
Some have been given the spirtual gift of celibacy in order for the sake of serving God.
Likewise, the very same Bible also states: Jesus indicates that remaining unmarried is only for a few people.
But it is not what we think,it is what God calls us to do…big difference. Some choose to remain single and celibate and serve God 100%…what is so hard to comprehend? Simply because you cannot comprehend it does not make it wrong or unnatural. You chose marriage and that is great,but the same respect and honor should be given to the single and celibate.
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wanner47
Guest
Not according to the ELCA or the Episcopalian Church (to name just two examples). Both Churches teach that abortion is acceptable, even laudable.
How is it possible for the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of Truth, to lead us in contradictory directions? Do you believe that the fullness of Truth can be found simeltaneously in two different churches that teach conflicting doctrines?
I’m asking you how it’s possible for the Holy Spirit to guide Christians to conflicting churches if there is only one Truth.
It’s the name of the heresy you espouse, one that’s quite prevalent in Christendom today.
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PRmerger
Guest
That is the unanswerable question, it seems, among Protestants who claim that they are guided by the Holy Spirit, yet find another sincere Christian who is professing contrary interpretations of Scripture.
W
wmscott
Guest
Dokimas, thanks for re-posting the explanation on 1 Timothy 4 
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Dokimas
Guest
I thought we were speaking about the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I already gave you an example of God leading in different directions. Different doesn’t have to mean contradictory. Are you saying there’s no such thing as a non-catholic Christian church?
They’d only be contradicting if they didn’t worship Jesus as God.
Does it make you feel important to attack?
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Dokimas
Guest
You’re welcome. I’m in the process of reading it carefully (I hope).Dokimas, thanks for re-posting the explanation on 1 Timothy 4
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Dokimas
Guest
Just because you don’t agree with an answer, doesn’t mean it’s unanswerable.
I understand your delema. You see your church without error. That makes all other church lesser, thus contradictory to yours. So the Holy Spirit MUST lead everyone to your church.
You enter this discussion with the above presupposition so you’ll never see any answer as correct.
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guanophore
Guest
Do you think He meant that one should literally castrate himself?
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Dokimas
Guest
My statement, ‘obviously yes’ was to the idea does the CC forgid their priest to be married.
W
wanner47
Guest
We are, and I’m puzzled as to how you don’t understand the logic involved. Let me try and break it down.
Churches teach doctrine. Logically, it follows that a member of a particular church would believe and follow those doctrines because they believe that their church is teaching the true doctrines; i.e., that their church correctly teaches on what particular acts are sinful, and which aren’t.
Now, some churches teach *conflicting *doctrine. For example, the ELCA teaches that abortion is not a sin. The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is a sin.
They can’t both be right about abortion. Either God condemns the killing of innocent life, or He doesn’t. He doesn’t have one set of commandments for one denomination and one set of commandments for another.
Now, say you have two Christians. One feels quite strongly that the Holy Spirit is guiding them to the ELCA. The other feels quite strongly that the Holy Spirit is guiding them to the Catholic Church.
Is it possible, in your opinion, for both of them to be right? Can the Holy Spirit guide two different people to churches that teach contradictory doctrines about what is sinful and what isn’t sinful? It seems, either way, that the Holy Spirit would be leading one of them into sin.
You’re talking about geographical location. I’m talking about doctrine. In the case of Christian churches, different does mean contradictory, otherwise there would be unity.
I’m asking your opinion on how it’s possible for the Holy Spirit to lead two people into contradictory beliefs, because if the Holy Spirit can do that, it means it is leading one of those people into sin. Do you believe that is possible?
Are you saying that there is no sin apart from denying Jesus as God? In other words, do you believe that the only valid commandment is the first one?
Attack? Not at all. It’s simply stating a fact. C.S. Lewis recognized the dangers of moral relativism:
(source)
I don’t see how you could construe my post as an attack, although if you wish to consult the moderators on that point I’d encourage you to do so. I’m happy to abide by their opinion and will offer an apology if they are also of the opinion that I “attacked” you.
G
guanophore
Guest
Oh, sorry! I thought you were responding "obviously yes’ to this!
Ok, I will back up. When Jesus said that some make themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom, do you think he meant to literally castrate themselves?
Did you see the post from Texas on the Catholic teaching about castrated priests? Do you think Jesus meant this literally?
Also, can you respond to Tantum’ s question above that I thought you were saying "obviously yes’ to, but you were not?
Do you think that married people are “forced” not to engage in adultery?
This might be unrelated, but do you think a person has a right to become a priest, if they so desire?
G
guanophore
Guest
Yes, clearly there is a denial of authority.
I don’t think it is the presence of standards, it is just that from his point of view, this one contradicts the scriptures.
It seems that he believes people have a “right” to be both sexually active and make a claim on the priesthood. He seems to perceive that they are being denied either the opportunity for marriage, or the priesthood. He seems offended that they should have to make a choice. In fact, he does not even see it as a choice, but something “forced”…
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wmscott
Guest
Good for you, and it is much appreciated.
D
Dokimas
Guest
I’m not sure how you’re missing that the Holy Spirit does lead to churches that are Christian but not catholic.
If I understand you, I’d agree. However, there are some doctrines MUCH more important than others. Also, not all people believe all things their churches teach. The CC has many members that disagree with some other the teaching of the church.
I would most likely NOT want to go to a church that teaches abortion is okay. I could see the Holy Spirit sending someone as His witness into a church like that to help sinners see the salvation that is only in Jesus. Abortion is against Jesus.
I’m quite sure the Bible teaches indirectly that abortion is WRONG.
You seem to be confusing the Holy Spirit leading to a person to a different church than you and the Holy Spirit leading two people to different doctrines. I know of NO church that has ALL the correct teaching. I know of NO person, most surely including myself, that has ALL correct understandings.
I think I’ve answered this above. The Holy Spirit, as you know, does not lead to sin.
You’re talking about geographical location. I’m talking about doctrine. In the case of Christian churches, different does mean contradictory, otherwise there would be unity.
God lead Paul to the Jewish places of worship. The taught wrong things about Jesus. Paul had a mission. He didn’t believe their wrong teachings. He tried to share the Gospel of Jesus with them. You must go where the sinners are to help them see the love of Jesus. Most of the time they won’t come to our churches out of the blue.
I’m saying to truly love Jesus you must love those in the Body of Christ and all sinners (“love your neighbor as yourself”).
I don’t need nor want to consult the moderator. This is betwee you and me and that’s where it will stay.
D
Dokimas
Guest
IMO, it’s misplaced authority.
W
wanner47
Guest
I’m not sure how you’re missing the point entirely.
Really? Two questions:
- Who decides what doctrines are more important than others, and what is their authority to do so;
- Where is this concept (“some doctrines [are] MUCH more important than others”) found in Scripture?
Which is indeed a sad situation. You see, when I came to the conclusion that I could no longer believe in what the ELCA taught, I left the ELCA. However, for those who are sincere, they do believe all that their church teaches. More importantly, they believe that their church has the **authority **to teach. Do you believe that of your church, Dokimas? If so, why?
I agree with you. However, the ELCA and the Episcopalian church both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Both use Scripture to assert that abortion is acceptable. Here is ELCA’s position.
Katherine Ragsdale, the president of the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, once said, “Abortion is a blessing.” (source) **This woman claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit. **
How can this be?
Actually, the Bible teaches directly that abortion is wrong (“Thou shalt not kill.”) But many Protestant denominations use Scripture to defend their believe that abortion is not wrong, and they also claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit.
No confusion – they’re one and the same. If the Holy Spirit leads two different people to two different churches, He’s leading them two believing in two different doctrines as well.
Well, I do. The Catholic Church. In terms of faith and morals, at any rate.
I do. His name is Jesus, and He established the Catholic Church to guide and teach the people.
If your assertions are true, Jesus essentially abandoned his church into a maelstrom of confusion, with no possible way of knowing all Truth or who is teaching the Truth. Seems to me to be a pretty poor way of doing things.
However, Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. Not SOME of the truth. ALL truth. John 16:13: “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.” (emphasis mine)
So if, as you say, there is NO church that has been guided into ALL truth, you’ve just called Jesus a liar.
So, obviously, if one person says the Holy Spirit is leading them to believe that abortion is right, and one person says that the Holy Spirit is leading them to believe that abortion is wrong, one of them is not being guided by the Holy Spirit. Do you agree?
But what’s the point of going to church at all if, as you assert, none of them teach the whole truth?
As Christians, we aren’t supposed to wait for sinners to come to us. We’re supposed to go out into the world and evangelize to them.
Okay. Loving one’s neighbor would include not leading others into sin, correct? How is one to do that if various people have different definitions of what constitutes sin? If I believe abortion is not a sin, and I persuade my friend – who belongs to a church that teaches that abortion is a sin – am I leading her into sin? How am I to know?
Okay, just thought I’d offer since it is against the rules for one member to “attack” another. I take it you no longer think I “attacked” you?
- Status