Split from "A question for some Protestants who try to proselytize Catholics": Are Catholic priests "Forbidden to Marry?"

[wmscott]

Well, they are not separable. Jesus taught by his actions, as well as his words. He said that some people MAKE THEMSELVES eunuchs for the Kingdom, and that if a person is so called, such a person should accept the gift. He modeled with his life how this gift is lived out.

Those who do interpret it “privately” believe they are led by the HS.

I agree, the Church is not at liberty to interpret the scripture outside of the teaching of those who wrote, preserved, promulgated and canonized it. The context of the NT is the Catholic Church.

This is quite true, which is one reason the CC cannot do such a thing.

guanophore, Dokimas states “I don’t believe the Bible is open to private interpretation, especially mine, but also a church isn’t permitted to privately interpret either”. He is correct on both accounts here, however what he does not understand is that it must be a matter of “public” interpretation of the Church. The Divine Word needs a Divine Interpreter. Private judgment leads to divisions and we know where this leads. .

2 Peter 1:20-21 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God. LINK

Ver. 20. No prophecy of the scripture is made by private interpretation; or, as the Protestants translate it from the Greek, is of any private interpretation, i.e. is not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit. (Witham) — The Scriptures cannot be properly expounded by private spirit or fancy, but by the same spirit wherewith they were written, which is resident in the Church.

Ver. 21. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time. This is to shew that they are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment, because every part of the holy Scriptures is delivered to us by the divine spirit of God, wherewith the men were inspired who wrote them; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the spirit of God, which he left, and promised to his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Our adversaries may perhaps tell us, that we also interpret prophecies and Scriptures; we do so; but we do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, they without it. (Witham) LINK

 

[Teneas]

I didn’t ask about the CC, I asked about Jesus.

Jesus not being married isn’t the issue. What He taught is the issue.

I don’t believe the Bible is open to private interpretation, especially mine, but also a church isn’t permited to privately interpret either.

If you believe that Jesus is against priests not being married, then that is up to you man. I can’t believe, for the life of me, why Christ would not like something that means more devotion to Christ himself.

 

[Teneas]

guanophore, Dokimas states “I don’t believe the Bible is open to private interpretation, especially mine, but also a church isn’t permitted to privately interpret either”. He is correct on both accounts here, however what he does not understand is that it must be a matter of “public” interpretation of the Church. The Divine Word needs a Divine Interpreter. Private judgment leads to divisions and we know where this leads. .

2 Peter 1:20-21 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God. LINK

Ver. 20. No prophecy of the scripture is made by private interpretation; or, as the Protestants translate it from the Greek, is of any private interpretation, i.e. is not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit. (Witham) — The Scriptures cannot be properly expounded by private spirit or fancy, but by the same spirit wherewith they were written, which is resident in the Church.

Ver. 21. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time. This is to shew that they are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment, because every part of the holy Scriptures is delivered to us by the divine spirit of God, wherewith the men were inspired who wrote them; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the spirit of God, which he left, and promised to his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Our adversaries may perhaps tell us, that we also interpret prophecies and Scriptures; we do so; but we do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, they without it. (Witham) LINK

 

[Dokimas]

Is there a problem?

No.

 

[Dokimas]

I can only assume from you silence that there is a level of scrutiny that you want to avoid:shrug:

I don’t know what this means.

 

[Dokimas]

Reminds me of Moses making concessions for divorce!

I have no clue what you are talking about.

This is a good example of the culture of death thinking. It represents a lack of faith, that the man is able to stand because God is able to make him stand. A man who takes a vow of celibacy is no more in a “place where he may fail” than a married man. Indeed, God created us all with sexual feelings. A married man may have sexual feelings for a woman who is not his wife. Is he “in a place where he may fail” because he took marriage vows?

World wide sex trade is animalistic. The killings of many in many countries by money hungry people is animalistic. I could go on but I’m sure I don’t need to. Surely if they’d open their heart to Jesus, He would change them and make them truly human.

Basic Requirements for Eligibility:

• United States citizen:

• Good moral character;

• At least 17 and not past their 23rd birthday on 1 July of the year they would enter the academy;

• Unmarried;

• Not pregnant; and

• No dependents.

Now, my question for you is this. Is the US Naval academy “forbidding marriage” to the applicants? Are they “forbidding pregnancy” or “forbidding children”? Along those lines, are they “forbidding good moral character”?

If the US Naval academy won’t let anyone in that is married, then yes. But there is nothing in the Bible about going to the US Naval academy. There is quite a bit in the Bible about pastoring God’s sheep. Marriage in permitted by Jesus and the NT writer, Paul, who was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I am glad that you can realize you are using a double standard, one for the Catholic Church, and another for Protestant. You are correct, using a double standard does paint you into a corner.

Seems you’re putting words in my mouth. I’m not sure I mentioned anything about a double standard. Could you be very specific and show me where I did this? If you can’t I’ll be forever lost in this corner.

BTW, I know there are married pastors and unmarried pastors. Both are welcome in protestant churches. Some seminarians get married others stay single. And if they made it through, they can be ordained to pastor. Both are acceptable. (I’m trying to find the double standard; I just can’t find it. Looking back I found question to me off topic, though.)

 

[Dokimas]

It is not the disagreement that is the problem. It is that you will not acknowledge our point of view. I just want to to be able to say “yes, I see how you get that”. Then if we still disagree, and you follow it by saying “but I see it differently” we could move on. But, as it is, since you are unable to articulate the opposing point of view, we have to assume that it bears continued explanation because you have not yet understood, or that you are intractibly stubborn, and refuse to get it.

It has nothing to do with “rights”. Of course everyone has the right to their opinion. The purpose of the forum is to discuss the differences - compare and contrast.

Of course I acknowledge you have a point of view and that it differs from mine. I don’t accept it, sometimes, just as you HAVE not changed your mind after reading my reasons.

Are you willing to say that you see why I say that the NT makes provision for pastors, bishops, priest, etc. to be married or single?

 

[Dokimas]

So you agree with everything I posted?

No.

What do widows have to do with priests, pastors or bishops?

 

[Dokimas]

The Teaching of the Church and the Scripture clearly answer this question. Many are called, but few are chosen. In fact, I would venture that the vast majority of those called to the priesthood don’t answer the call.

There are married men who are called, and do answer, and are ordained.

Avoiding the real question; good move; safe response.

 

[Dokimas]

Your statement “again” makes it clear that you think it is “wrong” for the Catholic Church to choose from among those called to celibacy to serve as priests. It is an indication that you do not recognize the authority of the Church to make this discipline.

Correct. Are you surprised? This issue is clearly spelled out in the NT and the CC does not follow it, IMO.

You are right, though, that Jesus NEVER forbid married or single priests. That is why the Catholic Church does not do it either.

:banghead:

Choosing from among those who are called to celibacy to serve as priests does not contradict the bible, either.

I doesn’t fulfill the Bible’s teaching on the subject.

A man is not “kept” from the priesthood, Doki. A person receives a call to ministry, and that call is discerned over the course of many years, as we do not lay hands on anyone in haste. The candidate does not necessarily "want’ to be celibate, either.

A rose is a rose is a rose.

 

[Dokimas]

Well, they are not separable. Jesus taught by his actions, as well as his words. He said that some people MAKE THEMSELVES eunuchs for the Kingdom, and that if a person is so called, such a person should accept the gift. He modeled with his life how this gift is lived out.

Your response falls short; it is only true to a point. You’re not acknowledging the rest.

Those who do interpret it “privately” believe they are led by the HS.

People you think priests should not get married believe they are led by the Holy Spirit, too. Same meaning as you had applies here.

I agree, the Church is not at liberty to interpret the scripture outside of the teaching of those who wrote, preserved, promulgated and canonized it.

Agree.

The context of the NT is the Catholic Church.

Thanks for your opinion. Mine is different.

 

[Dokimas]

Originally Posted by Nicea325
Whatever Dokimas! You cannot accept the fact it is very possible for someone to remain celibate prior to being a priest or as a discipline or simply remaining celibate as a lay person. Do not let your pride hit you on the way out…

Of course it’s possible for someone to remain celibate prior to being a priest and remains so throughout life. So, you wrongly accuse me of saying or believing something I did not say nor do I believe.

Do I hear the victim card? Please! Distorting? Since you believe it is FORCED upon men,I asked you tell me who FORCED St.Paul to be celibate and single, if he was not married?

If this is what being a victim is all about, then bring it all on. This is small potatoes.

I don’t think ALL men are forced to be celibate, because they are able to be celibate and not sin. It 's not those men I’m referring to.

So tell me Dokimas,who forced St.Paul to be celibate and single? God?

Silly question.

 

[Dokimas]

If you believe that Jesus is against priests not being married, then that is up to you man. I can’t believe, for the life of me, why Christ would not like something that means more devotion to Christ himself.

Let me try again. I do NOT believe Jesus is against priest not being married. I believe the NT is against anyone to be forced to be celibate by an organization that claims to be from God. That ‘anyone’ refers ONLY to men that are called into roles of pastors, priest, bishops, etc.

 

[PRmerger]

If you believe that Jesus is against priests not being married, then that is up to you man. I can’t believe, for the life of me, why Christ would not like something that means more devotion to Christ himself.

Great thought, Teneas!

And aren’t priests being more like Christ–who was a celibate man–when they embrace celibacy?

 

[Nicea325]

Oh trust us all here,we have told Dokimas a billion times it is a discipline and not forced. But he continues to insist it is forced. He must have been a child who kept on sticking his hands over and over in the fire…:whacky:

 

[wanner47]

No.

What do widows have to do with priests, pastors or bishops?

Obviously you didn’t read my post, as I bolded the relevant portion for you. Here it is again:

**But is there scriptural precedent for this practice of restricting membership in a group to those who take a voluntary vow of celibacy? Yes. **Paul, writing once again to Timothy, mentions an order of widows pledged not to remarry (1 Tim 5:9-16); in particular advising: “But refuse to enroll younger widows; for when they grow wanton against Christ they desire to marry, and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge” (5:11–12).

This “first pledge” broken by remarriage cannot refer to previous wedding vows, for Paul does not condemn widows for remarrying (cf. Rom. 7:2-3). It can only refer to a vow not to remarry taken by widows enrolled in this group. In effect, they were an early form of women religious—New Testament nuns. The New Testament Church did contain orders with mandatory celibacy, just as the Catholic Church does today.

Such orders are not, then, what Paul meant when he warned against “forbidding to marry.” The real culprits here are the many Gnostic sects through the ages which denounced marriage, sex, and the body as intrinsically evil. Some early heretics fit this description, as did the medieval Albigensians and Catharists (whom, ironically, some anti-Catholic writers admire in ignorance, apparently purely because they happened to have insisted on using their own vernacular translation of the Bible; see the Catholic Answers tract Catholic Inventions)."

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
No.

What do widows have to do with priests, pastors or bishops?

Obviously you didn’t read my post, as I bolder the relevant portion for you. Here it is again:

Quote:
But is there scriptural precedent for this practice of restricting membership in a group to those who take a voluntary vow of celibacy? Yes. Paul, writing once again to Timothy, mentions an order of widows pledged not to remarry (1 Tim 5:9-16); in particular advising: “But refuse to enroll younger widows; for when they grow wanton against Christ they desire to marry, and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge” (5:11–12).

This “first pledge” broken by remarriage cannot refer to previous wedding vows, for Paul does not condemn widows for remarrying (cf. Rom. 7:2-3). It can only refer to a vow not to remarry taken by widows enrolled in this group. In effect, they were an early form of women religious—New Testament nuns. The New Testament Church did contain orders with mandatory celibacy, just as the Catholic Church does today.

Such orders are not, then, what Paul meant when he warned against “forbidding to marry.” The real culprits here are the many Gnostic sects through the ages which denounced marriage, sex, and the body as intrinsically evil. Some early heretics fit this description, as did the medieval Albigensians and Catharists (whom, ironically, some anti-Catholic writers admire in ignorance, apparently purely because they happened to have insisted on using their own vernacular translation of the Bible; see the Catholic Answers tract Catholic Inventions)."

---

JoAnna

JoAnna,

Dokimas will say: That is your opinion.

It is getting old.

 

[Dokimas]

Oh trust us all here,we have told Dokimas a billion times it is a discipline and not forced. But he continues to insist it is forced. He must have been a child who kept on sticking his hands over and over in the fire…:whacky:

And Doki’s said before about this issue, a rose by any other name is still a rose.

 

[Dokimas]

Obviously you didn’t read my post, as I bolded the relevant portion for you. Here it is again:

I read the highlighted part before and now and still wondering why?

 

[Dokimas]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas
No.

What do widows have to do with priests, pastors or bishops?

JoAnna,

Dokimas will say: That is your opinion.

It is getting old.

I guess you’re wrong about what my response would be. Don’t you ‘guys’ get tired of thinking wrong thoughts about some here? This is really what’s getting old!!!