Split from "A question for some Protestants who try to proselytize Catholics": Are Catholic priests "Forbidden to Marry?"

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

Yes, indeed. Pat De’s statement needs to be put to the test.

And, I for one am very intersted to see just what links there are …

Ah, Pat… to use an analogy… your ‘hand’ has been ‘called’ - show your ‘cards’!

God bless

You are absolutely free to attempt to take “apart piece by piece” the contradictions in that article. That is not a violation of forum rules.

Go for it! Show us what you got!

 

[wmscott]

Hi, PRmerger,

Yes, indeed. Pat De’s statement needs to be put to the test.

And, I for one am very intersted to see just what links there are …

Ah, Pat… to use an analogy… your ‘hand’ has been ‘called’ - show your ‘cards’!

God bless

Tom, glad to see you here, I am in burnout mode for this thread. I have put Einstein’s theory to the test for too long now and it is exasperating. No not relativity, his theory of insanity. Doing (or in this case – saying) the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, William,

Nice to see you, too. Yes, from time to time that Einsteinien ‘Theory of Insanity’ has also palgued me! Now, when it comes to ‘burnout’ …when both brain and enthusiasm are somoldering… I have found the best thing for me is to pray for guidance - and, before you know it … there is an excellent post looking me straight in the eye!

Hopefully these post will both brighten your day and spash some cold water on that feeling of burnout.

God bless

Tom, glad to see you here, I am in burnout mode for this thread. I have put Einstein’s theory to the test for too long now and it is exasperating. No not relativity, his theory of insanity. Doing (or in this case – saying) the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

[Dokimas]

I give a hearty “amen!” to the above verse, Doki.

If a man cannot exercise self control, he ought not be a priest.

Where does Paul say he shouldn’t be a priest? Even more importantly, where does Jesus say he shouldn’t be a priest?

 

[Dokimas]

Well, if we’re going to make comparisons on which is healthier: having sex or not having sex you’re going to lose, Dokimas.

3 words:

Sexually

Transmitted

Diseases

If we follow God’s rules for sex, what’t the chance of STD? About 0. Not following God’s rules, all bets are off!!!

 

[Dokimas]

No, Doki, it proves nothing of the kind. People do not become murderers because they don’t get sex.

If a person murders another, the lack of having their lusts satisfied may well have been the trigger, but the cause of it is a deep seated characterological problem resulting from their passions ruling their lives. They are in league with the devil, who was a murderer from the beginning. Being under the rulership of Satan causes such actions, not a lack of sex.

Because of that, anything could be the trigger. Whenever a person like this does not have his passions gratified, he will rage about it, not matter what it is.

Nit picking. So what? Who cares?

 

[Dokimas]

Hi, Dokimas,

Actually, this was a follow up study to the one they did that if you do not have sex you will go blind!

You know, there is an old saying in the hospitals about the most dangerous person is the Resident who has just read a study!

God bless

Okay, have your fun.

How about this, husbands that won’t have sex with their wives disobey God and visa versa?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Dokimas,

By golly - I think you’ve got it! This really captures the spirit of your posts! Great job… but, you know what - we are the ones who care, And, if the truth be known, we care a lot.

As you know, Paul wrote to Timothy and Titus about qualifications for those leading God’s people. Being able to control one’s passions and set a proper example is a real requirement: 2Tim 3: 1-7

1
But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days.
2
People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious,
3
callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good,
4
traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5
as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them.
6
For some of these slip into homes and make captives of women weighed down by sins, led by various desires,
7
always trying to learn but never able to reach a knowledge of the truth.

Paul’s letter to Titus (Titus 2:11-14) is equally clear that the leaders of Christ’s Chruch (and, that would be the Catholic Church) are to be controlled. Why you are having trouble with the Catholic Church making rules to make Paul’s focus a reality.

11
For the grace of God has appeared, saving all
12
and training us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live temperately, justly, and devoutly in this age,
13
as we await the blessed hope, the appearance 3 of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ,
14
who gave himself for us to deliver us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people as his own, eager to do what is good.

I guess another way to look at this is that Paul cared, Timothy and Titus cared - and the Catholic Church they lead still cares. Leaders of Christ’s Church are to be worthy of their calling (Eph 4:1-16) Really,Doki, it is past time to get with the program.

God bless

Nit picking. So what? Who cares?

 

[Dokimas]

Hi, Dokimas,

By golly - I think you’ve got it! This really captures the spirit of your posts! Great job… but, you know what - we are the ones who care, And, if the truth be known, we care a lot.

It captures frustration communicating with you and others. That’s it; that’s all. No more; no less.

It’s becoming more clear that this part of your post captures your spirit of condescention. Too bad; I thought I could have good dialogue with you and maybe even learn from you. However, with posts like this, I can’t learn anything.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

I wonder what all the married Episcopal priests and married Protestant clergy who’ve abused children use for their excuse. Clearly, they enjoy the marital embrace yet it did not prevent them from abusing children.

And I wonder what married people who commit adultery use for their excuse?

Perhaps we ought to also liberalize the marriage fidelity rule. I wonder, would it cut down on cheating spouses if they were allowed to fulfill their burning desire?

(Yep, folks, I’m pointing out the absurdity of the argument, “If they were allowed to have sex they wouldn’t break their vows”)

You Go Girl… That was a Great post!

God Bless,

Matthew

 

[tqualey]

Actually, Dokimas, it is far more telling about your ability to be receptive in that you only got as far as the first sentence.

It would appear that you have a ‘condescention’ fixation. When someone gives you something you can’t handle - it is simply dismissed as condescending. Truly, you will miss a lot on this list because of the filters you use to screen material out this is simply not compatable with your set way of thinking.

I gave you two solid scriptural references (not previously used to my knowledge) along with the actual text from Timothy and Titus that refute your position on there being no necessity for the leaders of the Church to exercise control over their emotions and to live Godly lives.

Everyone knows the Catholic Church requires celebicy of its clergy. No one entering the seminary ever seriously thinks that this Church discipline is going to be revoked. So, who thinks this is forced upon anyone? The fire department of every city I know requires that those who apply to fight fires be of good general health. Does this mean that someone with a stroke confined to a wheel chair could not be a fire fighter? That is EXACTLY what it means. Is this discriminatory? It CERTAINLY IS - but, it is not illegal because being able bodied is a necessary requriement for this position. If you want to be a priest, you have certain requirements to meet - and promising to renounce marriage happens to be one of them. If you do not want to make such a renunciation, then you can not be a priest. You can not have your cake and eat it, too. And, that is the name of that tune.

If you are on the list to learn, then listen and re-read the thoughtful and scripturally based responses you that have preceeded this post. If you don’t want to learn about the Catholic Church from Catholic sorces … well… you can continue to whine about condescention, but why bother? It appears to me that your attitude of hostility to the Catholic Church, as evicence by your arrogant and dismissive retorts, is preventing any real learning from taking place.

Think it over.

God bless

It captures frustration communicating with you and others. That’s it; that’s all. No more; no less.

It’s becoming more clear that this part of your post captures your spirit of condescention. Too bad; I thought I could have good dialogue with you and maybe even learn from you. However, with posts like this, I can’t learn anything.

 

[tqualey]

Wow!

Excellent.

God bless

Tom

I wonder what all the married Episcopal priests and married Protestant clergy who’ve abused children use for their excuse. Clearly, they enjoy the marital embrace yet it did not prevent them from abusing children.

And I wonder what married people who commit adultery use for their excuse?

Perhaps we ought to also liberalize the marriage fidelity rule. I wonder, would it cut down on cheating spouses if they were allowed to fulfill their burning desire?

(Yep, folks, I’m pointing out the absurdity of the argument, “If they were allowed to have sex they wouldn’t break their vows”)

 

[KathleenGee]

When Catholic priests could marry, there were divorces and mistresses and other children and the laity did not want to financially support such unions…there were also priests practicing celibacy in those times as well.

The Latin Church is the administrative rite of the universal church and there are demands as such that marriage is a different vocation. Most priests accept this by the time they are ordained, and ‘get over it’ and get on with their life – a full and active social life, continual dinner invitations and outings to the point, by the end of the day, they want peace and quiet reflection with the Lord. Remember, faithful priests are especially supported by the Lord through the sacrament of Holy Orders if they are faithful in their daily spiritual requirements and most receptive to our prayers and penance for them.

Celibacy is a great grace given by Christ Himself to fully serve in His name, not celibacy as something perverted.

 

[Dokimas]

Actually, Dokimas, it is far more telling about your ability to be receptive in that you only got as far as the first sentence.

Think it over.

God bless

I have an inability to accept things from people who condescend. Stop doing it and I’ll read you.

 

[tqualey]

Just continue to do as you are doing… your self-identified limitations will cost you in the long run unless you begin to overcome them.

You know, it really is true, growing old is manditory but growing up is optional.

God bless

Tom

I have an inability to accept things from people who condescend. Stop doing it and I’ll read you.

 

[Dokimas]

Just continue to do as you are doing… your self-identified limitations will cost you in the long run unless you begin to overcome them.

You know, it really is true, growing old is manditory but growing up is optional.

God bless

Tom

Thanx

I choose to try the best I can to live as a child.

Mt 18:4 "Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I have a long way to go.

 

[wmscott]

Hi, William,

Nice to see you, too. Yes, from time to time that Einsteinien ‘Theory of Insanity’ has also palgued me! Now, when it comes to ‘burnout’ …when both brain and enthusiasm are somoldering… I have found the best thing for me is to pray for guidance - and, before you know it … there is an excellent post looking me straight in the eye!

Hopefully these post will both brighten your day and spash some cold water on that feeling of burnout.

God bless

I know, I just need a break. There is one here that has been provided many, many “truths” with regards to forced celibacy, and he just refuses to see it. It would be somewhat humorous if it wasn’t t so sad that an individual can be so ingrained to false perceptions and lies regarding Christ and His Church.

 

[guanophore]

There is no use in arguing the truth of the matter since the form of “sacrificial priest” is a completely different term than what you are referring as priest as and Elder or Overseer. An Elder or Overseer can and are used interchangeably in the Bible and the sacrificial priest is a totally different term and only used in the New Covenant sense

Yes, we are in agreement on these points.

 concerning Jesus as the high Priest and the royal priesthood of believers who form of sacrifice is not a bloodless reenactment.  For God has told His priests what their sacrifice is and it does not accord with your tradition.

Jesus made the re-enactment of the Passover Sacrifice in His Own Blood. The wine becomes His blood, and the bread, His flesh. He has transformed the observation of the Passover into His Supper. He is the sacrificial lamb, who has shed His blood for us.

In Romans 12, the slave of Christ called to be an apostle by the mercy of God states the following: "Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship."

This is what we do at the consecration.

I understand what you are saying; I was once in those shoes.

Do you mean to say that there was a time when you did receive the Apostolic instruction about the sacrifice of the Mass?

If you understood the discussion on Melchizedek, then you would understand why a Catholic priest cannot come from that order; they die.

I think it would be more correct to say that they are brought INTO that order. Every priest who serves is brought into the priesthood of Christ, who is of the order of M. without beginning, or end.

Those who are faithful to the end do not die, but will live forever more.

Christ lives forever and made on sacrifice once and for all of the redeemed in Christ and is never to be repeated.  But that is Scripture and not tradition therefore I understand where you are coming from.

Actually, that scripture came from the Apostolic Sacred Tradition. Both of them agree, because they came from the same Source. There is no contradiction between Catholic Tradition and the Scripture. Ever.

  What does the Bible say?  You claim you have read Hebrews many times; try Romans 12.

In the OT we see a foreshadowing of the New. We see the priesthood of all believers, the ministerial priests, and a High Priest. This model has been fulfilled as it was patterened.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, William,

I had a teacher once who said, "You can’t polish a brick’ … as I recall…at the time, he was talking about me… There are some folks you will not have the satisfaction of knowing that you have reachedf them. But, you know who is was that reached you - and, I would recommend for pray fore that dear theacher every day. For the ones that reaching them seem out of the question (at least for now…) consider moving to another site. See how you have been laboring in one area and other areas are truly abailable o you. Who knows, another thread just may be the ticket for you not to get that terrible burned out feeling. …

Just don’t quit - there are many who benefit from your posts - both other posters such as myself and those who are lurkers.

God bless

Tom

I know, I just need a break. There is one here that has been provided many, many “truths” with regards to forced celibacy, and he just refuses to see it. It would be somewhat humorous if it wasn’t t so sad that an individual can be so ingrained to false perceptions and lies regarding Christ and His Church.

 

[guanophore]

Your revisionist history does not match with the Bible.

Possibly history does nto match with your perceptions of the bible, but it was Catholic history that produced, preserve, promulgated and canonized the Bible. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

If you were to read the post I did not say there is no priesthood; I stated the opposite.  the problem is the use of the term priest in a sacrificial sense and Hebrews makes the contrast and comparison to the OT priesthood of Aaron, similar to the Catholic priesthood, to that of the new order that of Melchizedek, which cannot be of the Catholic order since one of the unique qualifiers of Melchizedek is that that priest never dies unlike the Levitical priests and Catholic priests that stand daily ministering sacrifices and eventually do what? Die just like that of Aaron's, not Melchizedek, which is one of several reasons why Jesus priesthood is superior and only needed one sacrifice never to be repeated, that is what the Bible says, but that is not what your tradition teaches.

It seems that you are unclear about Catholi cteaching, Pat. The Catholic Church does not have priests like those of the OT. They are priests of the New Covenant. they do not offer animal sacrifices, and they are not chosen from among Levites. They are chosen by Christ, and are grafted into HImself, who is the Great High Priest. They are priests forever, after the order of Melchizedek.

If you want to see another simple qualifier; who is the manufacturer of the altar in your church?  God or man?

It is not the altar that makes the sacrifice holy, but that which is upon it that sanctifies the altar. Jesus offers Himself upon the altar. Through the holy sacrifice of His body and blood, we are brought to the foot of the cross.

Show me a single verse where their is an ordained priest in the way your church uses the term priest, one who makes daily sacrifices.

Clearly you do not understand what is written the way we do. We read it differently because we understand what is written in the light of the teachings of the apostles., which have been preserved infallibly in the Church by the HS.

There is good reason why the reformation shook the world. Luther was a great scholar and knew what he was talking about. He did make mistakes, but all men do, but for the better part he got it right and that is why he has had such a great impact on Christianity and God uses a few men throughout the ages to shake things up. John Calvin is another example and what these men have in common is their faithfulness to exposit Scripture to great depths to raise people to great worship and give honor and glory to God. Spurgeon and Edwards are also other examples of great men who spent hours upon hours reaching the depths of Scripture and lifting people up to a level of understanding and love of God.

There is no doubt that all these men were seeking the fullness of what God wants for His people. However, when they left the Sacred Deposit of faith, they separated themselves from God’s promise that they would be led into all Truth. As a result, they fell into errors, and their spiritual offspring fall into more of them on a daily basis.

Today you see mediocrity in all churches when it comes to getting deep into the word of God and lifting people up; this is a sign that the end of the end is coming and quite possibly in our lifetimes. Pastor and teachers of Scripture are complacent and “lazy” in doing their due diligence in studying the Word of God.

I am sure there are plenty of faithful stewards who also work very hard at their teaching and preaching . I have heard them personally, and met many of them on here.

Ask you priest how many hours a week he puts into studying the word of God to present the Homily?  Or better yet ask how he prepares it; what he goes through and is their a routine or formula.  I have asked several preachers and the answers accord with their preaching and the reflection is on their congregation -  a sad state of affairs for the church in general in my opinion regardless of the denomination.

Or better, invite him over to study with you, or invite yourself to study with him! certainly there are pastors that skimp on their preparation. there are also some that overprepare, and everything in between. Rather than standing in the peanut gallery finding fault wth them, we need to support and encourage them in their work. How many people leave without telling him how his words impacted their lives?