Split from "A question for some Protestants who try to proselytize Catholics": Are Catholic priests "Forbidden to Marry?"

[Pat_De]

Since you have no idea who I am and can not see into my heart, Pat, it is quite puzzling that you can declare me to be prideful.

So, can you answer the question, “Where is Scripture in the Mass”? That is, what parts of the Mass that we and the priest recite come from Scripture?

I’ll give you a freebie: you know at least the “Our Father” is from Scripture, right?

You lack an attitude of repentance and I do not recognize the Mass as Scriptural in any sense. So to ask me such a question and get your kicks from asking others speaks for itself; that is between you and God for you will not be required to give an account to any other than Him just as I will.

 

[PRmerger]

You can claim a “disparaging attitude” and charge “hostilities toward the Catholic faith”; this means you have a God-like complex in the sense that you are claiming to be able to read the heart of a man, which only God can. I have no axe to grind with you or any other Catholic; for everyone is called to love his neighbor as himself. Who is your neighbor; anyone that you cross paths with.

I wish we could have a more charitable conversation, but that is obviously not possible so perhaps we should avoid speaking to each other least we both sin against God.

How 'bout you just answer the questions that have been posed to you, Pat?

That seems like a simple enough matter on a forum like this.

Here’s one: what objections do you have to the article?

You are free to post your objections here. [SIGN1]It is not against forum rules to refute an article discussing Catholic teaching.[/SIGN1]

 

[PRmerger]

I do not recognize the Mass as Scriptural in any sense. .

Perhaps it’s because you don’t know Scripture very well?

Do you know that this is from Scripture:

Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say that word and (she) will be healed.

 

[PRmerger]

I do not recognize the Mass as Scriptural in any sense…

What about this verse:

In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matt 28:19

 

[Pat_De]

How 'bout you just answer the questions that have been posed to you, Pat?

That seems like a simple enough matter on a forum like this.

Here’s one: what objections to you have to the article?

You are free to post your objections here. [SIGN1]It is not against forum rules to refute an article discussing Catholic teaching.[/SIGN1]

Send me the link through this forum email and I will send you a response and you can share as you wish for I do not plan to be here much longer; there is no point for me to be here and I have concluded that God probably would rather have me spend my time doing other things.

As a matter of fact I am closing down for the night and may be back tomorrow night, but after that it will be at least a few days as I have a medical issue that needs to be worked on and I will be down a while.

 

[PRmerger]

I do not recognize the Mass as Scriptural in any sense…

And this verse?

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. 2 Cor 3:13

 

[PRmerger]

Send me the link through this forum email and I will send you a response and you can share as you wish for I do not plan to be here much longer; there is no point for me to be here and I have concluded that God probably would rather have me spend my time doing other things.

I am sorry to hear that, Pat.

I believe you were not expecting to find Catholics defending their faith here?

 

[PRmerger]

Send me the link through this forum email and I will send you a response and you can share as you wish for I do not plan to be here much longer;

At your request I have done this through a PM.

Eagerly awaiting your objections to the article, Pat.

Prayers going up right now for a quick resolution to your medical issue.

 

[guanophore]

You can claim a “disparaging attitude” and charge “hostilities toward the Catholic faith”; this means you have a God-like complex in the sense that you are claiming to be able to read the heart of a man, which only God can.

Not at all Pat! I am only reading your posts, and giving you some feedback on how they come across.

For all I know, you may be secretly hiding a great devotion and affection toward Catholicism behind all those remarks.

I cannot know your heart, or what kind of role playing you might be doing here.

I have no axe to grind with you or any other Catholic; for everyone is called to love his neighbor as himself. Who is your neighbor; anyone that you cross paths with.

So, Pat, that begs the question. What brings you here to CAF? How is it that you chose to walk across our path?

You sure seem to have a lot of sharp edges, for someone who has no axe to grind.

I wish we could have a more charitable conversation, but that is obviously not possible so perhaps we should avoid speaking to each other least we both sin against God.

On the contrary, Pat, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD. So, if you are unwilling to have a charitable conversation with me, that is certainly your choice, but it will not because it is impossible, but because you choose not to do so.

I do not avoid speaking to people here on CAF who disagree with me because I am afraid of sinning against God. I am sure, if I am out of order, He will let me know, and so will my peers here, and the mods!

There is not much debate here; you obviously are unable to read and understand.

Have you considered that I read and understand differently than you? How is it your understanding of what you read is better or more correct than mine?

For example if what you stated about the priests not dying and living forever, then the implication is that all the Levitical priests were damned and do not live forever and we know of a few in Scripture that were redeemed and if they were redeemed, then they would have had a priesthood that would not need to be replaced.

New Testament priests are not of the Levitical priesthood. The Levitical priesthood has been replaced with a priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.

In the OT, salvation was no different than it is in the New. People have always been saved by grace, through faith.

So the physical death is the context and in the Catholic priesthood everyone has had and will have a physical death.  Whereas Melchizedek had no beginnings or ends.

Jesus is a priest of the order of Melchizedech. all those called to the ministerial priesthood are taken up into His. he died a physical death. So to all of us. This is not what distinguishes them from one another.

I wish you the very best in this life.

Thank you Pat. I have found it within the Catholic Church, the one Church founded by Christ, upon the Apostles and prophets.

 

[guanophore]

You lack an attitude of repentance

How would you characterize such an attitude? I mean, what would be the overt signs?

PR, have you considered repentance? That would mean that you would do a “180” essentially turning your back on the Teachings of the Apostles infallibly preserved in the Church by the HS, and embracing the new innovations of doctrine proposed here by Pat. Maybe if you agreed with these doctrines, you could be perceived as having an attitude of repentance. Does that not appeal to you?

and I do not recognize the Mass as Scriptural in any sense.

I thank you for being honest on this point, Pat. I confess that I did not either, for a long time. I had to study a lot of history and theology, and participate in Divine Liturgy for a long time to finally see it. It was as if I had scales on my eyes.

So to ask me such a question and get your kicks from asking others speaks for itself; that is between you and God for you will not be required to give an account to any other than Him just as I will.

If you say you were a former Catholic, then yes, you will have to give an account for the fact that you do not recognize the Mass as Scriptural in any sense. It would be better for you if you had never known…

Send me the link through this forum email and I will send you a response and you can share as you wish

That would not be appropriate for her to do, Pat. We are not allowed to post private emails. That is why we are asking you to take up your courage, and post your objections in full view of everyone.

for I do not plan to be here much longer; there is no point for me to be here

Before you go, can you tell us what drew you here?Was it your intention to explain our errors to us, and evangelize us into becoming bible christians?

and I have concluded that God probably would rather have me spend my time doing other things.

Well, one must follow ones conclusions and sense of probabilities about God, I suppose.

As a matter of fact I am closing down for the night and may be back tomorrow night, but after that it will be at least a few days as I have a medical issue that needs to be worked on and I will be down a while.

You will be in my prayers Pat, and I earnestly will pray that when you are up to it, you will bring all your objections here for discussion.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pat De,

Oh, where to begin… Your apparent need to start off with insults is intriguing - I guess the biggest intrigue is why are you attacking the Catholic Faith on CAF? Surely there are other outlets for your hostility - especially with like minded individuals.

This is a typical response for those do not put much time or energy into the study and understanding of the Word of God. That is an interesting interpretation of the Word of God above; one I do not believe I have ever heard.

Glad you asked, Pat De!
Based on my understanding of your responses, it would appear that not only do you utilize Sola Scriptura as a principle, you use your own interpretation of God’s Word to come up with the meaning. Now, this is probably going to take you some time … but, since you have an abridged Catholic Bible to work with, I think you can manage…

First of all, you need to make an accurate determination about what is the Foundation of Truth in the Christian religion. The Bible? Hmmmmmmmm… NO! It is the Chruch! Actually, the Chruch founded by Christ - on Peter! And, before you scoff and continue to harden your heart, open your Bible to 1Tim 3:15.

15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Now, did members of the Early Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) practice individual interpretation? NO! Open your Bible to Acts 8:29-36

29
The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.”
30
9 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31
He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.
32
This was the scripture passage he was reading: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
33
In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth.”
34
Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, “I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?”
35
Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.
36
As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?”

That was the easy part… now, you need to do some serious reading! Begin with reading John 13, then go to 14 and then to 15 and then to John 16. What you will find is that Christ is talking jsut to His Apostles - there is no crowd of listeners in these chapters. This is an important consideration, because, I do not want you to think a mere verse has been lifted out of context When you are at John 16 look at v 12-14. Here is what the Catholic Bible says - I bet yours has something very close.

12
"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.
14
He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.

Christ is guaranteeing the Promise of God to His Chruch that God will protect His Church from error. There is no implication or even hint that everyone will be free of error - in fact, this is specifically condemned! 2Peter 1:20-21
20
Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
21
for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

Your approach to scripture (via the Sola Scriptura) is only one of the errors you have demonstrated. Your ‘Once Saved Always Saved’ view has lead to a hubris that is quite singular on CAF. Look at Matt 25 for some of the respnses of those who thought they were saved - and are now before the White Throne.

No where does Scripture state itis the only way - this is the height of a man mad tradition … and, I think you already know how Paul condemns that! Oh, where to begin… Your apparent need to start off with insults is intriguing - I guess the biggest intrigue is why are you attacking the Catholic Faith on CAF? Surely there are other outlets for your hostility - especially with like minded individuals.

Christ promised the Spirit to His Church (ah, and that is the same Chruch He founded on Peter on Matt 16)

Actually, I think I have met this burden - and now challenge you to stop blathering insults and produce scriptural evidence of the Bible being the sole authority and of people not being able to lose their salvation.

There was already an excellent refutation from Guanophore about your constricted view the Eucharist - which I am sure you have reviewed and are now prayerfull considering. Remember Christ is God - and since He told us that we are to eat His Flesh in order to live - then that is the requirement. God - the Creator of all - has chosen to hide under the form of Bread and Wine - who are we to say He can’t?

God bless

 

[wmscott]

Hi, William,

I had a teacher once who said, "You can’t polish a brick’ … as I recall…at the time, he was talking about me… There are some folks you will not have the satisfaction of knowing that you have reachedf them. But, you know who is was that reached you - and, I would recommend for pray fore that dear theacher every day. For the ones that reaching them seem out of the question (at least for now…) consider moving to another site. See how you have been laboring in one area and other areas are truly abailable o you. Who knows, another thread just may be the ticket for you not to get that terrible burned out feeling. …

Just don’t quit - there are many who benefit from your posts - both other posters such as myself and those who are lurkers.

God bless

Tom

Thanks Tom, I am not going to quit, just remove myself from the cycle of futility for a bit. Take a breather and just follow the thread. As I have stated in the past, I used to believe these lies and falsehoods, but there comes a point when reason and rational though kicks in that you have to let go of old prejudices. It is a poor soul that refuses to be open to the light truth but would rather hold onto the darkness of lies. Thanks again and Peace.

 

[wmscott]

And this verse?

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. 2 Cor 3:13

Maybe Pat can take the time to review this document on the Mass.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pat De,

What this really requires is a minimum of a 3rd grade reading level with corresponding comprehension - to read and understand what you wrote. It does not require a “God-like” complex…

You can claim a “disparaging attitude” and charge “hostilities toward the Catholic faith”; this means you have a God-like complex in the sense that you are claiming to be able to read the heart of a man, which only God can. I have no axe to grind with you or any other Catholic; for everyone is called to love his neighbor as himself. Who is your neighbor; anyone that you cross paths with.

I wish we could have a more charitable conversation, but that is obviously not possible so perhaps we should avoid speaking to each other least we both sin against God.

Now, Pat De, … your nose is going to grow when you make statements like you do not have an “…axe to grine with you or any other Catholic…”. It may sound novel, but when you attack our Faith you are attacking us. If you need a reference, try Luke 10:16. This scriptural verse really captures the sentiments of what is going on with this thread at CAF.

Concerning our need to love our neighbor… it probably would be a revelation for us if you to demonstrate this love in your next post. There is no substitute for leading by example! But, CAF is not a ‘touchy - feely’ type of site. No. It really will require some work on your part.

If you are sincere about having “…a more charitable conversation…” then begin by just omitting your insulting opening paragrapy, simply answer the question, provide a scriptural basis for your response and await a response. Admittedly, this would be novel approach,Pat De, but, I am confident if you give it a try it could open up new doors for you - and, possibly a less defensive and more thoughtful dialogue with others on the list.

So, go on … give it a try…

God bless

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe Pat can take the time to review this document on the Mass.

The Word Document is now saved on my computer!

 

[PRmerger]

PR, have you considered repentance? That would mean that you would do a “180” essentially turning your back on the Teachings of the Apostles infallibly preserved in the Church by the HS, and embracing the new innovations of doctrine proposed here by Pat. Maybe if you agreed with these doctrines, you could be perceived as having an attitude of repentance. Does that not appeal to you?

It most certainly does NOT appeal to me!

However, I do consider “repentance” (as defined in this context) each time I read a non-Catholic’s post–I try to discern the truth and validity of the argument to determine to what degree it affirms the Teachings of the Apostles infallibly preserved in the Church by the HS. If there ever were an argument presented that demonstrated that the CC had departed from the teaching of the Apostles, I most certainly would “repent”! But, so far, no need for repentance here!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The only authority given to man is the Word of God; and in that sense no man has his own authority, but uses the authority of God through His Word. Whenever men take there authority in a local assembly in the name of God, then it no longer is a church in which Jesus is building, but one that is on a foundation of sand wrought of men.

Scripture is very clear on that subject; you either have a foundation of rock (1Co 3:11) or one of sand (Mt 7:26). I’m sure Luther is fully aware of the truth concerning Mary. Luther got the Gospel right and many other things concerning the Word of God. Why do you think he had such a shattering impact on all of Christianity; he was faithful to the Word of God.

If by authority and the “Word” you mean Christ, yes. His written Word is not the totality of Christ. And Scripture quite clearly gives “The Church” as the pillar and bulwark of truth while it does not claim anywhere that it (Scripture) is the ‘only authority’. If you claim it does, chapter and verse where these words are clearly found.

If Luther is 'fully aware of the truth concerning Mary", then why does he proclaim a ‘different’ truth from the one you claim? Mary’s status as perpetual virgin is important through typology and revelation, so it is ‘in Scripture.’

So Luther got ‘some stuff’ right but he messed up on other important 'truths?" Doesn’t sound right to me. One could understand if he didn’t address every ‘wrong’ but he didn’t just ‘not address’ Mary’s perpetual Virginity --HE ESPOUSED IT. Big, BIG difference from just ‘not commenting’. . .The same man who ‘trounced’ what he called the ‘wrongs’ of the Catholic Church didn’t trounce this so-called ‘wrong’ but actually acknowledged it as truth, not simply disregarding it. Very, very strange.

 

[tqualey]

Actually, Pat De,
when you make statements like “You lack an attitude of repentance…” you seem to showing off that “God-complex” you just railed aganst.

You lack an attitude of repentance and I do not recognize the Mass as Scriptural in any sense. So to ask me such a question and get your kicks from asking others speaks for itself; that is between you and God for you will not be required to give an account to any other than Him just as I will.

Since you do not recognize the Mass as Scriptural, you may be interested in Matthew 16 where Christ gave Peter the Keys and the power to bind and lose… and then there is John 6 where Christ told us to eat His Flesh and drink His Bood if we are to have life. And, then there are the Synoptics account of the Last Supper where Christ told His Apostles to do this - celebrate the Eucharist - the Real Presence. And then there is St. Paul telling those in Corinth who had lost sight of the importance and significance of the Real Presence that they were in serious trouble (1Cor 11:29).

You are perfectly free to reject the clearly written Word of God by dismissing it through your private interpretation but, you really should reconsider. You see, Christ did not come back in the 16th century and tell Martin or John that He had obviously made a mistake and was now taking back the authority He had given to Peter and his successors - that the Catholic Church could no longer have the guidance of the Holy Spirit and keep it from teaching error. Nope! That did not happen.

If you look at the “Braking of Bread” as a scriptural phrase, you are actually looking at the early Mass as it was developing into what we have today.

Ultimately, there is the question about what happened in the development of Christianity for the 16 centuries before the organized break from Christ’s Church. All of the Early Church Fathers recognized the Mass, the Primacy of Peter and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Those are really the facts - and, you may want to take a few moments to reflect on them.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, William,

This attachment material you sent on the scriptural basis for the Mass is excellent

Thanks for sending it.

God bless

Maybe Pat can take the time to review this document on the Mass.

 

[wanner47]

The area of study was to correct the error stated concerning the Great White Throne. Going into a site to find what you believe to be an error adds nothing to the original correction.

Since I take objection to their (unbiblical and man-made) doctrine of sola scriptura, I prefer not to waste my time debunking theology from an organization with whose basic tenets I disagree.