SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[newbie1234]

In the case of believing in the Trinity, you would in fact be required to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian at all.

The Trinity was not explicitly defined by Christ and His apostles.

God Bless,
Maria

I believe in the trinity and I can prove it using the biblical canon.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So when I celebrate communion and remember Jesus death and resurrection it is somehow false. And I am somehow LESS blessed than you because I pray directly to God The Father and I don’t have Mary or a saint speaking for me.And God will not forgive my sins if I pray directly to Him and ask forgiveness. Is this what you believe?

1. So when I celebrate communion and remember Jesus death and resurrection it is somehow false. I did not say that. You claimed that you received “Body and Blood” and I told you exactly under what circumstances that would be the case. Your communion is not ‘false’ as a ‘memorial’ but it is not the complete and once-for-all sacrifice of Christ made at both the Last Supper and on Calvary of which Catholics partake.
2. And I am somehow LESS blessed than you because I pray directly to God The Father and I don’t have Mary or a saint speaking for me I pray ‘directly to God’ and I pray to Him through Mary and the saints. You tell me whether two prayers are more than one, or less. Blessing, in itself, is given to God to bestow as He wills, not as I will, so I cannot judge your personal ‘degree’ of blessedness. I can only state that, all things being equal, prayer to God from one person, along with prayer to God from that one and others, means that there is more than one praying to God; prayer to God from one person means there is only person praying.
3. And God will not forgive my sins if I pray directly to Him and ask forgiveness As a Catholic who has been (I believe you said earlier) confirmed in and instructed in the faith, you know that Catholics are required by Church law to confess to God through a priest. Those who are not Catholic and are unaware of, or unable to accept yet, those teachings are still in one sense’ bound’ to the teachings (whose sins you loose on earth are loosed in heaven, whose sins you hold bound are held bound) but have lessened culpability for their errors. Those who obstinately and persistently deny the teachings will be judged by God accordingly. Therefore, only God knows if He forgives your sins in spite of your unrecognized culpable errors (and of course, only God is our judge in any matter). I cannot pronounce personally on this; I can only speak with the authority of the Church on what She teaches; it is up to God to show His Justice and Mercy.

 

[Catherine_S]

I was baptized as a baby. Confirmed at 12. Did I have the understanding of sin at that age? I just went along with the program at my Catholic school. It wasn’t until my thirties, when I started getting into the Word, that I learned about the sin issue and salvation. I wonder how many 12 year olds can grasp that?
I can’t judge weather anyone is saved.
But I can recognize the gifts of the Spirit.

Which gifts do you have Newbie?
.

 

[LilyM]

I believe in the trinity and I can prove it using the biblical canon.

Funny that - you give Jews and Muslims the New Testament, and indeed the rest of the bible, to read and they will say ‘where on earth do you get the idea of the Trinity from? The idea that Christ is divine? Sunday worship? I see none of it in here’

I know this because I’ve spoken to a number of Jews and Muslims who HAVE read the Bible and said just those things.

So clearly, even though the idea of the Trinity, and all the other ideas, are supported by the Bible they in fact originate from OUTSIDE the Bible. That would be what we call Sacred Tradition (with a capital T).

That same Sacred Tradition (as expressed by the Early Church Fathers for example) is where we Catholics get a lot of other ideas from too - the role of the Papacy, the Real Presence and so on.

 

[newbie1234]

newbie1234;1820590:

We can try, just as we can read an Ernest Hemingway book and try to figure out from reading it what he meant.

But Ernest Hemingway has children and grandchildren alive today with whom he discussed his work. If THEY tell us what they know he meant by it, surely we should trust their interpretation over our own ideas?

Why do you think the Ethiopian in Acts went to the Apostle Philip for Philip’s interpretation of Isaiah rather than simply reading it on his own? Why did the Disciples on the road to Emmaus not understand the scriptures properly until Christ himself went thoroughly through them ‘from Moses onward’ with them?

Why did Christ stay with the Apostles for 40 days after his resurrection to continue teaching them instead of just handing them a copy of the Scriptures and saying ‘here they are, now that you’ve been blessed with my Holy Spirit you don’t need to be taught anything further by me - figure it out on your own!’

It is possible to read hemmingway and understand it.
Don’t get me wrong, I am being taught biblical truths on a daily basis by people much more knowledgeable than me.
I have a problem with the statement that the Catholic Church can be the only teacher.

 

[Serene]

I do believe that you are trying to get everyone all worked up. Otherwise why would you go on a Catholic web site to air your feelings about Fatima and other images? While we are talking about our Blessed Mother, I hope that title is alright with you, she appeared at Lourdes. If you remember this, since you were Catholic (?) at one time. Appearing to Bernadette, she gave instructions to dig. Finally water came fourth. There have been 67 “cures verified”. When Saint Bernadette’s body was exhumed, it was incurrupt (had not decayed). The crucifix and rosary that were buried with her had oxidized. Doesn’t this make you wonder why? FYI the book “The Song of Bernadette” was written by a Jewish gentleman. Sorry I cannot think of his name right now.

You need to search deeper into your brain and try to remember more of your catheschism.

Hope you have a good day.

 

[newbie1234]

Which gifts do you have Newbie?
.

Why do you ask?

 

[newbie1234]

Funny that - you give Jews and Muslims the New Testament, and indeed the rest of the bible, to read and they will say ‘where on earth do you get the idea of the Trinity from? The idea that Christ is divine? Sunday worship? I see none of it in here’

I know this because I’ve spoken to a number of Jews and Muslims who HAVE read the Bible and said just those things.

So clearly, even though the idea of the Trinity, and all the other ideas, are supported by the Bible they in fact originate from OUTSIDE the Bible. That would be what we call Sacred Tradition (with a capital T).

That same Sacred Tradition (as expressed by the Early Church Fathers for example) is where we Catholics get a lot of other ideas from too - the role of the Papacy, the Real Presence and so on.

I NEVER would give my bible to a jew or muslim and ask them if they can find proof of what I believe. I support my beliefs with my own biblical reference.

 

[newbie1234]

I do believe that you are trying to get everyone all worked up. Otherwise why would you go on a Catholic web site to air your feelings about Fatima and other images? While we are talking about our Blessed Mother, I hope that title is alright with you, she appeared at Lourdes. If you remember this, since you were Catholic (?) at one time. Appearing to Bernadette, she gave instructions to dig. Finally water came fourth. There have been 67 “cures verified”. When Saint Bernadette’s body was exhumed, it was incurrupt (had not decayed). The crucifix and rosary that were buried with her had oxidized. Doesn’t this make you wonder why? FYI the book “The Song of Bernadette” was written by a Jewish gentleman. Sorry I cannot think of his name right now.

You need to search deeper into your brain and try to remember more of your catheschism.

Hope you have a good day.

I believe Mary the mother of Jesus is blessed!
However she has No power to heal, to redeem or to answer prayers.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM;1820618:

It is possible to read hemmingway and understand it.
Don’t get me wrong, I am being taught biblical truths on a daily basis by people much more knowledgeable than me.
I have a problem with the statement that the Catholic Church can be the only teacher.

Your teachers are more knowledgeable than you, true. The Catholic Church as an institution is more knowledgeable than you, me or any single teacher or small group of teachers.

It’s analogous to having access simultaneously to everyone who ever knew Hemingway and everyone who’s ever written a scholarly paper about him.

Catholic scholarship INCORPORATES Protestant scholarship in that the Church has had to examine its ideas in response to critiques from outside the Church itself.

It is the product of 2000 years of CONSTANT teaching by legions of history’s greatest minds, from Peter and Paul through Augustine and Aquinas (who referred back to Plato, Aristotle and so on) on down.

 

[newbie1234]

newbie1234;1820642:

Your teachers are more knowledgeable than you, true. The Catholic Church as an institution is more knowledgeable than you, me or any single teacher or small group of teachers.

It’s analogous to having access simultaneously to everyone who ever knew Hemingway and

everyone who’s ever written a scholarly paper about him.

Catholic scholarship INCORPORATES Protestant scholarship in that the Church has had to examine its ideas in response to critiques from outside the Church itself.

It is the product of 2000 years of CONSTANT teaching by legions of history’s greatest minds, from Peter and Paul through Augustine and Aquinas (who referred back to Plato, Aristotle and so on) on down.

So your teacher is better than mine.
But can’t I still be a good Christian with my inferior teacher,As long as all the teaching is in line with the bible

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Ok I cannot produce a document.

But wasn’t there a petition among marion followers to make mary coredemptrix. And wasn’t it signed by thousands of people. So if the church received this petition wouldn’t they have at least considered it?
I may be wrong if so I retract the statement.
You have made it clear.
You don’t pray to statues.
You don’t worship Mary.
You don’t worship saints.
Kneeling before a statue is not worship.
Saying the Rosary is an honor to God.
I understand.

I’ve seen people during ‘altar calls’ fall on their knees before the minister.

I’ve seen window stickers on the backs of evangelical vehicles showing a boy and girl figure kneeling in front of a cross.

I’ve seen (otherwise) good men fall on their knees in front of a woman to ask her hand in marriage.

Hhhmmm…what have I been missing all these years!

 

[LilyM]

LilyM;1820692:

So your teacher is better than mine.
But can’t I still be a good Christian with my inferior teacher,As long as all the teaching is in line with the bible

But why on earth would you settle for a teacher you know is inferior when the best of the best are right here in the Catholic Church waiting for you??? :ehh:

 

[JonathanKinsman]

So can I or can’t I confess my sins to God and ask for forgiveness alone in my room?

Do I need a catholic priest to hear my sins before I’m forgiven?

Newbie: it was a REQUIREMENT in the early Church to stand up during the Mass on the Lord’s Day (oops! that’s not in the NT!) and confess one’s sins.

Try that instead at your meeting house. It would put you with St Francis of Assissi. Good company, friend.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

So if there is no new revelation since John, does that include what the popes have to say also?

Newbie:

Popes do not speak for God nor do they claim any revelatory power.

You’ve been reading too many Chick tracts.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

So when I celebrate communion and remember Jesus death and resurrection it is somehow false.And I am somehow LESS blessed than you because I pray directly to God The Father and I don’t have Mary or a saint speaking for me.And God will not forgive my sins if I pray directly to Him and ask forgiveness. Is this what you believe?

Newbie:

How do you “celebrate communion?” With water and cookies? Grape juice and crackers?

What scriptural passage do you think is controlling on this ‘Lord’s Supper’ requirement?

Is Jesus’ words in John (and in St Paul) to be taken ‘metaphorically’ while you take some of His other words ‘literally?’

Why are you inconsistent?

 

[newbie1234]

I’ve seen people during ‘altar calls’ fall on their knees before the minister.

I’ve seen window stickers on the backs of evangelical vehicles showing a boy and girl figure kneeling in front of a cross.

I’ve seen (otherwise) good men fall on their knees in front of a woman to ask her hand in marriage.

Hhhmmm…what have I been missing all these years!

You’re kidding Right?
In the altar call the person is not worshipping the minister.
And the man is not worshipping his wife.
You were kidding, I hope.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Jesus’ death on the cross has given me access to the Holy of Holies. I can approach God directly. I can pray to Him. I can speak to Him. I can ask Him for forgiveness. He hears me and answers me. Can I still be a good Christian in your eyes if I don’t look to Mary or the saints for an intercessor?

Yes, you can.
God, because of His generous nature, gives us Mary and the Communion of Saints as a gift. It’s a wonderful gift, but not a requirement that we make use of the gift.

 

[Randy_Carson]

No. We do not baptize infants.
A baby cannot understand the issue of sin and why he or she needs salvation.

So, let me ask my next question: why do the Lutherans, who have named themselves after Mr. Sola Scriptura himself, baptize infants?

Or the Anglicans?

Or the Methodists?

 

[valient_Lucy]

You’re kidding Right?
In the altar call the person is not worshipping the minister.
And the man is not worshipping his wife.
You were kidding, I hope.

Newbie, you’ve stated that kneeling before anything is idolatry. The people in these examples are kneeling before a minister or a wife. IF, as you say, kneeling is an act of idolatry, THEN the people in both of these examples are commiting adultery.

Why do you assume that a person kneeling before a minister or a wife is not worshipping the minister or wife, but assume that a Catholic who kneels before a statue is worshipping the statue?