SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[newbie1234]

JonathanKinsman:
“Ex cathedra” is latin for “from the chair.”

This phrase is from the First Vatican Council’s statement on Infallibility, 18 July 1870, and pertains to when the pope “defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the Universal Church [that’s ALL christians].”

There have only been TWO ‘ex cathedra’ pronoucements in the 1900+ year history of the Church: the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary.

Our own government has an official who speaks ‘ex cathedra:’ the President when he writes an Executive Pardon or goes to war without the consent of Congress, or does any number of things permitted to him by custom (defined by the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the Constitution) or by statute from Congress.

Monarchs speak ‘ex cathedra.’

Non-denominational ministers speak ‘ex cathedra’ when they tell you what a passage means or what you should believe as a christian in good standing with the Lord or with his or her “church.”

What’s the problem here, Newbie??

Come on dude!
When the pope speaks ex cathadra he is inffalible and speaks as if it is right from God. YOU AND I BOTH KNOW THIS.
Our president never made any such claims!
Only the pope and Caesar and other kings make these claims.
If the canon and revelation ended with John, how can any pope claim this power?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Personal credibility is not exactly the most reliable index on which to ‘judge’ people. Look how many people found Christ’s person and His message to lack ‘personal credibility’. The Jews were looking for a secular prince Messiah, not a ‘suffering servant’.

Every one of us, every single one, has sinned. Some of us are luckier than others; we are only lightly tempted, our sins are small, or, if great, not ‘discovered’ by most. Some of us are severely tempted, or have great sins, or even lesser sins, but ‘discovered’ and trumpeted by many.

While certainly it is true that ‘greater sin’ requires greater penance and restitution, it doesn’t mean that ‘greater sin’ requires ‘lesser forgiveness’ from others simply because it is, or perceived, as being ‘worse’ than the ‘average’ sin.

There are those who, like St. Augustine, a man who himself sinned greviously against the 6th commandment in sexual sins, went on to do heroic penance, to acknowledge his wrongs and to strive to do right. I fear that there are some who would have damned him to hell right after his first sexual sin and never, ever, ‘permitted him’ the grace to confess, repent, and atone. I fear that there are some here who would forever after dismiss him thus< “Augustine. . .oh sure, he says he’s a Christian NOW. He SAYS he’s sorry for his sins, but how do we KNOW he is? How can he possibly make amends? He SAYS all sorts of things. . .but why should I believe such a sinner? The leopard doesn’t change his spots. . .once a sinner, always a sinner. am only going to listen to CHRIST and not to some like Augustine. . .”

 

[Church_Militant]

So can I or can’t I confess my sins to God and ask for forgiveness alone in my room?
Do I need a catholic priest to hear my sins before I’m forgiven?

What is the point of this passage?

John 20:21: Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

and again, 2nd Corinthians 5:18: All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
19: that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

There is nothing in either of those passages that even implies that this was ever meant to be a one-shot deal or any such drivel.

James 5:14: Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15: and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

How do you justify your confession without complying with the Word of God in these passages?

I don’t think you can.

 

[newbie1234]

newbie1234;1820848:

A lot of people probably lost faith in the Apostles after Judas betrayed Jesus.

A lot of people probably lost faith in evangelical Christianity after the recent scandal when a popular minister confessed to having a relationship with a male prostitute and to using illicit drugs.

If I was in his church I would change churches.

 

[Mary3]

I believe Mary the mother of Jesus is blessed!
However she has No power to heal, to redeem or to answer prayers.

But she has great influence with her Son, who has all those powers.

Newbie, I understand you used to be a Catholic. I’m wondering if you ever had a relationship with the Blessed Mother while you were a Catholic? In those days, did you ever ask her to pray for you, or for your intentions?

I know you would never do such a thing now. But, you will pray to her Son. Have you asked Him what He thinks of His mother, and really listened for the answer? He will surely answer the question if you ask with an open heart and mind.

 

[newbie1234]

newbie1234;1820951:

Why? would a few bad teachers (heck, we’ve all had bad teachers, I know I had more than a few of 'em) destroy your faith in teachers in general? Or a few bad parents (again we all know a few) destroy your faith in all parents?

If a school had a bunch of bad teachers, I would not try to find a good teacher. I would look to find a better school

 

[Tantum_ergo]

A lot of people probably lost faith in evangelical Christianity after the recent scandal when a popular minister confessed to having a relationship with a male prostitute and to using illicit drugs.

If I was in his church I would change churches.

Do you mean that you would change to the same denomination but a different minister, or to a completely different denomination?

If the first, then you acknowledge that the truth of the denomination exists apart from the ‘actions’ of one of the members.

If the second, then you apparently would jettison the ‘truth’ of the denomination because of the actions of one of the members.

And if you do go with the second, then you’ll never find any ‘church’ whose members are sinless–not even if it’s the church of ‘you’.

 

[newbie1234]

Personal credibility is not exactly the most reliable index on which to ‘judge’ people. Look how many people found Christ’s person and His message to lack ‘personal credibility’. The Jews were looking for a secular prince Messiah, not a ‘suffering servant’.

Every one of us, every single one, has sinned. Some of us are luckier than others; we are only lightly tempted, our sins are small, or, if great, not ‘discovered’ by most. Some of us are severely tempted, or have great sins, or even lesser sins, but ‘discovered’ and trumpeted by many.

While certainly it is true that ‘greater sin’ requires greater penance and restitution, it doesn’t mean that ‘greater sin’ requires ‘lesser forgiveness’ from others simply because it is, or perceived, as being ‘worse’ than the ‘average’ sin.

There are those who, like St. Augustine, a man who himself sinned greviously against the 6th commandment in sexual sins, went on to do heroic penance, to acknowledge his wrongs and to strive to do right. I fear that there are some who would have damned him to hell right after his first sexual sin and never, ever, ‘permitted him’ the grace to confess, repent, and atone. I fear that there are some here who would forever after dismiss him thus< “Augustine. . .oh sure, he says he’s a Christian NOW. He SAYS he’s sorry for his sins, but how do we KNOW he is? How can he possibly make amends? He SAYS all sorts of things. . .but why should I believe such a sinner? The leopard doesn’t change his spots. . .once a sinner, always a sinner. am only going to listen to CHRIST and not to some like Augustine. . .”

I can forgive all those priests but I don’t have to remain under their teaching or fellowship with them.

 

[Jennifer_J]

“Ex cathedra” is latin for “from the chair.”

This phrase is from the First Vatican Council’s statement on Infallibility, 18 July 1870, and pertains to when the pope “defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the Universal Church [that’s ALL christians].”

There have only been TWO ‘ex cathedra’ pronoucements in the 1900+ year history of the Church: the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary.

Our own government has an official who speaks ‘ex cathedra:’ the President when he writes an Executive Pardon or goes to war without the consent of Congress, or does any number of things permitted to him by custom (defined by the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the Constitution) or by statute from Congress.

Monarchs speak ‘ex cathedra.’

Non-denominational ministers speak ‘ex cathedra’ when they tell you what a passage means or what you should believe as a christian in good standing with the Lord or with his or her “church.”

What’s the problem here, Newbie??

<<Come on dude!
When the pope speaks ex cathadra he is inffalible and speaks as if it is right from God. YOU AND I BOTH KNOW THIS.
Our president never made any such claims!
Only the pope and Caesar and other kings make these claims.
If the canon and revelation ended with John, how can any pope claim this power?>>

What’s really sad is your complete lack of knowledge about what ex cathedra means and what infallibilty means. Perhaps you should really try to study this (from Catholic sources) and then get back to everyone.

Jennifer

 

[MariaG]

Most of What I read can be interpreted easily. I take it all literally.Prophecy and the parables are very figurative and I need help there. But the Gospels, epistles, and OT historical accounts can be taken literally for the most part. No need for much interpretation.

Yet scripture disagrees with you, unless you avoid the writings of Paul?

:bible1: 2 Peter 3:15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16] speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[newbie1234]

What is the point of this passage?

John 20:21: Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

and again, 2nd Corinthians 5:18: All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
19: that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

There is nothing in either of those passages that even implies that this was ever meant to be a one-shot deal or any such drivel.

James 5:14: Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15: and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

How do you justify your confession without complying with the Word of God in these passages?

I don’t think you can.

In 16 when they say one another does it mean only a catholic priest in a confessional or anybody?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I can forgive all those priests but I don’t have to remain under their teaching or fellowship with them.

I’ll ask you again about 'changing churches/priests/ministers:

Do you mean that you would change to the same denomination but a different minister, or to a completely different denomination?

If the first, then you acknowledge that the truth of the denomination exists apart from the ‘actions’ of one of the members.

If the second, then you apparently would jettison the ‘truth’ of the denomination because of the actions of one of the members.

And if you do go with the second, then you’ll never find any ‘church’ whose members are sinless–not even if it’s the church of ‘you’.

And if your idea of forgiveness means not ‘fellowshipping’ with them–could you enlighten me on what that would mean?

 

[newbie1234]

So, let me ask my next question: why do the Lutherans, who have named themselves after Mr. Sola Scriptura himself, baptize infants?

Or the Anglicans?

Or the Methodists?

I don’t follow any of these religions either

 

[Church_Militant]

ok you use that gift
I choose not to.

A Biblical gift. The Communion of Saints. and Another MP3 Bible Study.

So…on what authority do you base your rejection of a spiritual gift outlines in the Word of God? Your personal infallibility?

 

[newbie1234]

I’ll ask you again about 'changing churches/priests/ministers:

Do you mean that you would change to the same denomination but a different minister, or to a completely different denomination?

If the first, then you acknowledge that the truth of the denomination exists apart from the ‘actions’ of one of the members.

If the second, then you apparently would jettison the ‘truth’ of the denomination because of the actions of one of the members.

And if you do go with the second, then you’ll never find any ‘church’ whose members are sinless–not even if it’s the church of ‘you’.

And if your idea of forgiveness means not ‘fellowshipping’ with them–could you enlighten me on what that would mean?

I can forgive someone and choose not to be around or associate with them

 

[Jennifer_J]

I don’t follow any of these religions either

They aren’t religions, they are all Protestant Christians. All who follow different doctrines…

Jennifer

 

[newbie1234]

A Biblical gift. The Communion of Saints. and Another MP3 Bible Study.

So…on what authority do you base your rejection of a spiritual gift outlines in the Word of God? Your personal infallibility?

Praying to Mary or the saints is not a spiritual gift. Read your bible on gifts of the spirit. Praying to saints is not one of them

 

[MariaG]

So do I have to follow the revelation given to men after the canon was closed or not? Can I be a good Christian by following the canon of the bible and disregard anything that came after?

In the case of believing in the Trinity, you would in fact be required to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian at all.

The Trinity was not explicitly defined by Christ and His apostles.

God Bless,
Maria

I believe in the trinity and I can prove it using the biblical canon.

I have no doubt you can “prove” it using the biblical Cannon.

But I offer my apologies I posted quickly however and did not recheck my dates. I was thinking the doctrine of the Trinity was not fully defined until after the Canon was closed.

I see that it was before, so it does not apply.

However, I would also say that it is not “clear” in scripture, the teaching of the Trinity or would not today have those who do not in fact believe in the Trinity. One cannot “prove” it from Scripture because they choose to believe the interpretation of those who have come along. Sacred Tradition as someone else pointed out is the reason you can so confidently “prove” the Trinity from Scirpture.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Church_Militant]

In 16 when they say one another does it mean only a catholic priest in a confessional or anybody?

Except that history shows that the early church was indeed Catholic in both belief and practice.

I don’t see any of the n-Cs that I know practicing confession to any other believers. So that rationalization juust doesn’t wash Newb.

 

[newbie1234]

But she has great influence with her Son, who has all those powers.

Newbie, I understand you used to be a Catholic. I’m wondering if you ever had a relationship with the Blessed Mother while you were a Catholic? In those days, did you ever ask her to pray for you, or for your intentions?

I know you would never do such a thing now. But, you will pray to her Son. Have you asked Him what He thinks of His mother, and really listened for the answer? He will surely answer the question if you ask with an open heart and mind.

Yes Mary, when I was catholic I prayed to Mary many thousands of times.
now that I am born again I have asked about the prayers to Mary and her apparitions in Fatima and guadalupe. The answer I got was that the apparitions are from the enemy and although Mary the mother of Jesus was blessed, I should NOT be praying to her apparition or statue. This is how I am lead by the Holy Spirit. I know humble Mary of the bible has no power to answer prayers or heal or anything of that nature. Power comes from God the father.